Phosphate Phad?
- Thread starter ReefLady
- Start date
BoomerD
Well-Known Member
Well Sharks, that looks much better than mine did. I ran the FBF with a Maxi-Jet 1200, and turned the entire tank solid orange...couldn't see 12" through the murk...Took several micron filter bags ans almost a week for that to clear up...Nothing seems to much the worse for the experience though...Fortunately, the PB tends to have somewhat similar qualities as carbon, and should help filter the fine particles out over time...Give it a few days, the heavier stuff should settle, and the finer stuff ought to get caught in your filter system...
sharks
Contributing Member
OK I can’t even post a pic.
Here is what happened…
Today I was out all day at the LFS.
When I got home it was orange like you mentioned B
Then I noticed the bonded pads in the sump were clogged.
When I pulled them out the entire tank turned Pea Green!!!!!
I was freaked and spent hours ripping the house apart searching for my old diatom filter.
Cuts and scratches to prove it!
2 hours later I plug it in and no juice #$%^&*)
So I left it and will keep changing the pads and see what happens
Never mind 12” in the tank I can’t see more then 2-3”
I have resigned myself that I may loose thousands tonight or not.
Isn’t reefing fun!
I used a Red Sea Merlin Fluidized Sand chamber so maybe it pulverized the PB and that is the issue.
In the morning I will assess the tank and either do a massive water change or diatom the tank.
The PB was stuck to the glass and settled on the LR.
Thanks for the info and next time just remind me that…
If it aint broke don’t fix it!
AHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
Here is what happened…
Today I was out all day at the LFS.
When I got home it was orange like you mentioned B
Then I noticed the bonded pads in the sump were clogged.
When I pulled them out the entire tank turned Pea Green!!!!!
I was freaked and spent hours ripping the house apart searching for my old diatom filter.
Cuts and scratches to prove it!
2 hours later I plug it in and no juice #$%^&*)
So I left it and will keep changing the pads and see what happens
Never mind 12” in the tank I can’t see more then 2-3”
I have resigned myself that I may loose thousands tonight or not.
Isn’t reefing fun!
I used a Red Sea Merlin Fluidized Sand chamber so maybe it pulverized the PB and that is the issue.
In the morning I will assess the tank and either do a massive water change or diatom the tank.
The PB was stuck to the glass and settled on the LR.
Thanks for the info and next time just remind me that…
If it aint broke don’t fix it!
AHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
BoomerD
Well-Known Member
I used the Lifegard FBF with a Maxi-Jet 1200. WAY too much flow! Now, I have it running with a Mini-0Jet 404, and no problems. I still have the output dumping into a fine micron filteer sock, which still turns orangeish, but the water looks much better. Gotta change the media tomorrow, and do some other things, we'll see how it turns out...
mps9506
Well-Known Member
Do you guys notice any problems with your alkalinity trying to go down when runnning rowaphos or the equivelent?
From what I understand, if you don't have a very gentle flow going through the FBF with these products they have the tendancy to rub togther and break apart and get into your tank easier.
Mike
From what I understand, if you don't have a very gentle flow going through the FBF with these products they have the tendancy to rub togther and break apart and get into your tank easier.
Mike
sharks
Contributing Member
Well that’s what happened to me.
I didn't use a micron filter to catch the dust.
Now the reactor is practically empty and PB has been pumped into the entire system
This crap is everywhere! I will do a massive water change and I'm thinking of running the diatom.
First question?
1) Should I diatom?
2) Will it harm anything in a SW system?
3) Would I be better off hooking up a canister filter filled with sponges and filter floss?
4) Will PB harm anything? There is no way I will get it all out so will PB harm anything over a long perion of time?
Well now it's settled I was thinking of doing a tear down to move the tank, redesign, install the chiller & CA reactor. So now it looks like that will happen sooner then I thought.
Well at least I will get the chance to rid my system of all the ricordea
I didn't use a micron filter to catch the dust.
Now the reactor is practically empty and PB has been pumped into the entire system
This crap is everywhere! I will do a massive water change and I'm thinking of running the diatom.
First question?
1) Should I diatom?
2) Will it harm anything in a SW system?
3) Would I be better off hooking up a canister filter filled with sponges and filter floss?
4) Will PB harm anything? There is no way I will get it all out so will PB harm anything over a long perion of time?
Well now it's settled I was thinking of doing a tear down to move the tank, redesign, install the chiller & CA reactor. So now it looks like that will happen sooner then I thought.
Well at least I will get the chance to rid my system of all the ricordea
mojoreef
Just a reefer
Interesting thread folks. I think P is one of the main things folks need to be worried about, more then nitrogen really. The hobby goes where the so called experts and such wish to take it...good or bad.
When you are approaching P you have to understand it comes in various forms and types, some we have a chance on removing some limiting entry and some no chance at all. P as with most related element cycles through the various forms, thier are certain times and instances that we can jump in and break that cycle, if left unchecked it will just grow larger and larger.
Unlike nitrogen (nitrites/nitrates and so on) P is limiting, it can only enter your tank if you put it thier, where as nitrates can be made in the tank. So the best defence on fighting P is to limit its entry. This is all and good but impossible to do completely, so no matter what you are stuck with a small constant entry of it. And thus the battle to remove it begins.
heres a few concepts for ya.
We feed the fish, this puts in Inorganic P into the tank in both soluable and insoluable forms. the fish and bacteria will pounce on it and turn the insouable IP into organic P (gone) the small amount of souable IP we have a chance at by using a P sponge (such as rowa or phosban)so first kick at the can.
Ok back to out IP that turned into organic in a critter or bacteria. once in thier it is locked up until that critter releases it. So in the case of the fish a feww hours until it poops and with bacteri until it dies (which could also be a few hours). Ok the poop, the poop is Particulate Inorganic P (as it is not part of any critters matrix), and some Soluable IP. so another shot at the P can. Now a sponge such as rowa can remove the particulate IP just the dissolved version (so a little more is removed) for the particulate tha is where a product like carbon would come into play if used. it removes particulate matter so a bit more get removes. Ok so back to the journey or the P. the fish poop/detritus/extra food can be removed if any of these forms are removed from the tank (ahhhhh the beauty of a BB,, hehehe sorry I had to) if you remove any of those or all through skimming, carbon, syphoning or what ever you have completely removed the P in all its lovely forms with the exception of the OP which is bound to the matrix of critters and some dissolved forms being constantly pooped out by the critters. the dissolved form can continue to be removed if your sponge is kept running 24/7, (deals with it as it comes into play). the detritus/poop/extra food being removed removes both the IP bound in those materials but also takes the OP out throught he removal of the bacteria that are assoc. with it (sitting on and in it feedinng on it), remember those importal words "thier is nothing good about detritus just get it out". so if you combine the above methods you have a very good chance at limiting the input and maximising the output with out effecting the growth of the critters that need it.
On the products like rowa and phospban. Fluidising them is th best method for doing it (allows more surface area for absobtion) slow constant flow is best. I just made two 24 inch so called fluidised reactors at a DIY cost of 50 bucks for both, so not a big venture. They way they work is that so much of it will remove x ammount of IP from Y ammount of water, so running it fulltime is perfect, remember IP comes out when the critters dictate not you. Having the sponge available when ever that time comes is a good thing.
anyway I am not sure if that confuses things more, but the coffie intake is low at the moment.
Mike
When you are approaching P you have to understand it comes in various forms and types, some we have a chance on removing some limiting entry and some no chance at all. P as with most related element cycles through the various forms, thier are certain times and instances that we can jump in and break that cycle, if left unchecked it will just grow larger and larger.
Unlike nitrogen (nitrites/nitrates and so on) P is limiting, it can only enter your tank if you put it thier, where as nitrates can be made in the tank. So the best defence on fighting P is to limit its entry. This is all and good but impossible to do completely, so no matter what you are stuck with a small constant entry of it. And thus the battle to remove it begins.
heres a few concepts for ya.
We feed the fish, this puts in Inorganic P into the tank in both soluable and insoluable forms. the fish and bacteria will pounce on it and turn the insouable IP into organic P (gone) the small amount of souable IP we have a chance at by using a P sponge (such as rowa or phosban)so first kick at the can.
Ok back to out IP that turned into organic in a critter or bacteria. once in thier it is locked up until that critter releases it. So in the case of the fish a feww hours until it poops and with bacteri until it dies (which could also be a few hours). Ok the poop, the poop is Particulate Inorganic P (as it is not part of any critters matrix), and some Soluable IP. so another shot at the P can. Now a sponge such as rowa can remove the particulate IP just the dissolved version (so a little more is removed) for the particulate tha is where a product like carbon would come into play if used. it removes particulate matter so a bit more get removes. Ok so back to the journey or the P. the fish poop/detritus/extra food can be removed if any of these forms are removed from the tank (ahhhhh the beauty of a BB,, hehehe sorry I had to) if you remove any of those or all through skimming, carbon, syphoning or what ever you have completely removed the P in all its lovely forms with the exception of the OP which is bound to the matrix of critters and some dissolved forms being constantly pooped out by the critters. the dissolved form can continue to be removed if your sponge is kept running 24/7, (deals with it as it comes into play). the detritus/poop/extra food being removed removes both the IP bound in those materials but also takes the OP out throught he removal of the bacteria that are assoc. with it (sitting on and in it feedinng on it), remember those importal words "thier is nothing good about detritus just get it out". so if you combine the above methods you have a very good chance at limiting the input and maximising the output with out effecting the growth of the critters that need it.
On the products like rowa and phospban. Fluidising them is th best method for doing it (allows more surface area for absobtion) slow constant flow is best. I just made two 24 inch so called fluidised reactors at a DIY cost of 50 bucks for both, so not a big venture. They way they work is that so much of it will remove x ammount of IP from Y ammount of water, so running it fulltime is perfect, remember IP comes out when the critters dictate not you. Having the sponge available when ever that time comes is a good thing.
anyway I am not sure if that confuses things more, but the coffie intake is low at the moment.
Mike
sharks
Contributing Member
If you are willing to pay shipping on a 14Lb bolder you can buy them
I will probably move it to the FOWLR tank.
Beleave me it I could pry them off the rock I would.
Don't kill me but for now I have resorted to killing them with the siphon hose. They are burning some of my SPS's
Anyway I'm off to do the water change...
No one has info on Diatoming a SW tank?
I will probably move it to the FOWLR tank.
Beleave me it I could pry them off the rock I would.
Don't kill me but for now I have resorted to killing them with the siphon hose. They are burning some of my SPS's
Anyway I'm off to do the water change...
No one has info on Diatoming a SW tank?
BoomerD
Well-Known Member
To the best of my knowledge, running your diatom filter should not do any harm. IF I remember right, there used to be more than 1 grade of D.E you could buy, and one of them had powdered chlorine bleach in it. If that's still true, just be careful which one you use. You're gonna be doing water changes anyway, so any extra trace elements the diatom filter happens to pull out would be getting replaced in the next change.
Witfull
Well-Known Member
sharks, just order a Vortex,,,its what we OFR's use. make sure you get the charging valve or run it on a bucket so you dont blow powder into the tank. they also have carbon powder you can mix in or use separately. great gadget to have...thats why they have been sold for 30yrs.
BoomerD
Well-Known Member
I wrote to Julian Sprung after my orange tank mess. Here's his response:
It is true that using PhosBan in a fluidized filter is the best way to use it, BUT... the design of the fluidized filter can make or break the application. Probably you are using a Merlin or similar filter. These will pulverize the PhosBan because they don't have a dispersion plate and sponge pad at the base to keep the PhosBan away from the bottom where the water enters with force.
What is probably happening then is that the PhosBan is at the bottom of the filter where the water enters with force, and it is being pulverized there.
We have a solution- Two Little Fishies is introducing a fluidized
reactor called the PhosBan Reactor 150. It holds up to 200 grams of PhosBan and works with a maxijet 500 or Eheim 1046. It includes a ball valve to regulate the flow. The retail price is around $40. It will be available from mail order supply houses in a few weeks."
The new Phosban reactor is out, and I've seen it for just under $40.00 here:
North Coast Marine...Specials
Here'a a good thread from one of the local reef clubs on Phosban:
B.A.R.E. Phosban thread
It is true that using PhosBan in a fluidized filter is the best way to use it, BUT... the design of the fluidized filter can make or break the application. Probably you are using a Merlin or similar filter. These will pulverize the PhosBan because they don't have a dispersion plate and sponge pad at the base to keep the PhosBan away from the bottom where the water enters with force.
What is probably happening then is that the PhosBan is at the bottom of the filter where the water enters with force, and it is being pulverized there.
We have a solution- Two Little Fishies is introducing a fluidized
reactor called the PhosBan Reactor 150. It holds up to 200 grams of PhosBan and works with a maxijet 500 or Eheim 1046. It includes a ball valve to regulate the flow. The retail price is around $40. It will be available from mail order supply houses in a few weeks."
The new Phosban reactor is out, and I've seen it for just under $40.00 here:
North Coast Marine...Specials
Here'a a good thread from one of the local reef clubs on Phosban:
B.A.R.E. Phosban thread
Well, it looks like this one is coming full circle rather quickly.... reports of slowed SPS growth and even RTN when using PO4 reactors...
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=370825
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=370825
NaH2O
Contributing Member
I'd have to say no. Mainly because I think the uptake of IP by bacteria, algaes, etc. would be much faster than the time it would take for the sponge to take it out. The sponge is there to get what free IP happens to pass thru it, but if an organism is next to the IP when it becomes available, I think it will jump on it. When all the organisms are full the IP is more readily available....personally, I don't see how we can "short" our systems of IP, as we are constantly introducing it, and something is always dying (whether bacteria, algae, or LR shedding) introducing IP back into the water.
someone correct me if I'm way wrong....
someone correct me if I'm way wrong....