Newbie starting a reef!
- Thread starter Spex
- Start date
Alright, stop bombarding the new reefer with a 29 gallon tank with all the mumble jumbo. You guys are going to scare him right out of the hobby before water hits his tank! 
Fatman please stop with the over whelming information, it's annoying. Keeping a small reef aquarium is not all that difficult if you have half a brain.
Spex, thank you for your patients. Can i encourage you to start a tank journal? here's a link to where to go. http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/reef-chronicles/ just click on "new thread" and your off!
BTW, Welcome to RS!
Fatman please stop with the over whelming information, it's annoying. Keeping a small reef aquarium is not all that difficult if you have half a brain.
Spex, thank you for your patients. Can i encourage you to start a tank journal? here's a link to where to go. http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/reef-chronicles/ just click on "new thread" and your off!
BTW, Welcome to RS!
NanoNewbie
Member
The ocean has a natural skimmer.
Its the wave and foam action on the shore that works like a skimmer does
Its the wave and foam action on the shore that works like a skimmer does
Boomer
Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
I am not talking about adsorption at all. Well, briefly , when I stated I use GAC for removal of color from my water. I merely am speaking about the studies that show the alledged effectiveness of these different medias as substates for denitrification.
Let me be clear on this one last time. In this hobby and 95 % of the time in the waste water industry, it is used for chemical adsorption and mechanical filtration. ANY porous media can be used for biological filtration. And no one in this hobby, I'm aware of, uses GAC for biological filtration, as it is counter productive and is a poor media for facultative subanerobic denitrification. It is just to porous and usually just allows the NO3 to increase due to massive bio-mineralization and nitrification.
I am quite aware that natural zeolite do not adsorb in fresh water, and did not say or imply that they did.
How can you claim to be a civil engineer and water filtration expert, so to speak and make that statement, which is shear nonsense. Natural Zeolites an artificial Zeolites are mined or manufactured but the '10's - thousands of tons /year to filter FRESH WATER for the adsorption of unwanted ions. What do you think water softeners use ? Even large water treatment plants sues them to remove toxic ions and heavy metals. Zeolites are on of the most if not the most heavily mined *mineral in the world. It is usual the mineral Clinoptilolite. Zeolites are ion exchange minerals, which are at their height in freshwater.
If you insist that I am talking out my heiny I can probably find the article about testing of these medias as substrates for biological filtration.
I have such articles that is not the issue it is how GAC or zeolites are used in THIS hobby.
I only use GAC and zeolites as adsorber but they study/tests I m referring to still exists.
Again how did you miss this ? Zeolites, in short, will be dead as ion exchangers in seawater due to the massive amount of ions in seawater. They will be about dead the first minute in seawater in most cases. Even a simple glucose molecule is hard to fit into a pore. There is no known bacteria that can fit into a zeolite pore. It is like trying to stick a watermelon up ones butt. However, some Zeolites do have what we call "Void Fraction" which is the amount of void spaces or channels, which are not part of the pore structure, where some bacteria can fit it and the can be some mechanical filtration. This is what the ZeoVit System is all about for SPS tanks. However, the Zeolites have to be cleaned every day of the mulm/ bio-films which are "washed off and fed to the corals an the rest is exported via skimming.
I am quite aware of what GAC is typically used for, I am a civil engineerr with an emphasis in environmental engineering, which means I work in the design and running of water and waste treatment plants.
Sorry but I'm beginning to have extreme doubts base on your answers to this post and others.
It is not a far stretch to look at these media as substrates for biological filtration. Seems like a logical thing to test or study consideringthe porousity and therefore surface areas of thes medias.
It is not a stretch at all and can be used for bio, will go bio and is even used in the waste water industry for that very purpose at times but not in this hobby. It is self-defeating and just raises NO3-.
The fact is we are not even discussing the same things (tests/studies)before you are out of line trying to imply what iI might or might not know. Period.
The only one here out of line is yourself an all your errors and not understanding the subject matter at hand, which is quite evident.
I do not post all reference studies nor do you so obviously if my opinions are not based on scietifi methods then your surely are not either.
I have posted lots of studies on this forum to include, RF, RC and others on Zeolites and GAC, just do a search on them. You have not posted a single one at all. Feldman's studies will be based on the adsorption of organics in seawater and the those we have to deal with. Here is two of his first ones on GAC.
Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: Granular Activated Carbon, Part 1: Modeling of Operational Parameters for Dissolved Organic Carbon Removal from Marine Aquaria
Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: Granular Activated Carbon, Part 2: Modeling of Operational Parameters for Dissolved Organic Carbon Removal from Marine Aquaria
Let me be clear on this one last time. In this hobby and 95 % of the time in the waste water industry, it is used for chemical adsorption and mechanical filtration. ANY porous media can be used for biological filtration. And no one in this hobby, I'm aware of, uses GAC for biological filtration, as it is counter productive and is a poor media for facultative subanerobic denitrification. It is just to porous and usually just allows the NO3 to increase due to massive bio-mineralization and nitrification.
I am quite aware that natural zeolite do not adsorb in fresh water, and did not say or imply that they did.
How can you claim to be a civil engineer and water filtration expert, so to speak and make that statement, which is shear nonsense. Natural Zeolites an artificial Zeolites are mined or manufactured but the '10's - thousands of tons /year to filter FRESH WATER for the adsorption of unwanted ions. What do you think water softeners use ? Even large water treatment plants sues them to remove toxic ions and heavy metals. Zeolites are on of the most if not the most heavily mined *mineral in the world. It is usual the mineral Clinoptilolite. Zeolites are ion exchange minerals, which are at their height in freshwater.
If you insist that I am talking out my heiny I can probably find the article about testing of these medias as substrates for biological filtration.
I have such articles that is not the issue it is how GAC or zeolites are used in THIS hobby.
I only use GAC and zeolites as adsorber but they study/tests I m referring to still exists.
Again how did you miss this ? Zeolites, in short, will be dead as ion exchangers in seawater due to the massive amount of ions in seawater. They will be about dead the first minute in seawater in most cases. Even a simple glucose molecule is hard to fit into a pore. There is no known bacteria that can fit into a zeolite pore. It is like trying to stick a watermelon up ones butt. However, some Zeolites do have what we call "Void Fraction" which is the amount of void spaces or channels, which are not part of the pore structure, where some bacteria can fit it and the can be some mechanical filtration. This is what the ZeoVit System is all about for SPS tanks. However, the Zeolites have to be cleaned every day of the mulm/ bio-films which are "washed off and fed to the corals an the rest is exported via skimming.
I am quite aware of what GAC is typically used for, I am a civil engineerr with an emphasis in environmental engineering, which means I work in the design and running of water and waste treatment plants.
Sorry but I'm beginning to have extreme doubts base on your answers to this post and others.
It is not a far stretch to look at these media as substrates for biological filtration. Seems like a logical thing to test or study consideringthe porousity and therefore surface areas of thes medias.
It is not a stretch at all and can be used for bio, will go bio and is even used in the waste water industry for that very purpose at times but not in this hobby. It is self-defeating and just raises NO3-.
The fact is we are not even discussing the same things (tests/studies)before you are out of line trying to imply what iI might or might not know. Period.
The only one here out of line is yourself an all your errors and not understanding the subject matter at hand, which is quite evident.
I do not post all reference studies nor do you so obviously if my opinions are not based on scietifi methods then your surely are not either.
I have posted lots of studies on this forum to include, RF, RC and others on Zeolites and GAC, just do a search on them. You have not posted a single one at all. Feldman's studies will be based on the adsorption of organics in seawater and the those we have to deal with. Here is two of his first ones on GAC.
Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: Granular Activated Carbon, Part 1: Modeling of Operational Parameters for Dissolved Organic Carbon Removal from Marine Aquaria
Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: Granular Activated Carbon, Part 2: Modeling of Operational Parameters for Dissolved Organic Carbon Removal from Marine Aquaria
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I know you're getting bombarded by opinions and will probably get a lot more. Here's one more, related to live rock - for our first tank, we got a great deal on Fiji rock that came right off the plane. Nice price, but not too decorative. It was all dark and lumpy.
Our second tank was much more selective - longer, much more decorative pieces with better balance and space for fish and coral. This rock was all white and clean.
Lessons learned?
1. Rock is the most important part (in my opinion) of the beauty and design of your tank - it's what will be seen most until you have a lot of coral, and is what the coral will sit on. So it's worth picking it out yourself and making sure it looks nice when you put it in
2. Bulk rock can have lots of hitchhikers - some good, some bad. Ours had some crabs that turned predatory and flatworms (which are also destructive and disgusting). The crabs caused problems eating things, and the worms were very difficult to get rid of.
3. Everyone's view of a nice looking tank is different. Take a look at some of the pics and the structure and decide what your goal is.
My personal lesson was that it's worth finding the right rock, in the right shapes, and making sure the tank looks really nice before going too far.
Having said all that, there's so much to learn - as you're probably finding out (which is also the fun part) - that you should enjoy the experience and learn as you go. It'll never all be perfect the first time, and it's rewarding no matter what you go through. Everyone I know says it's an obsession - and it is! Enjoy it all.
lcstorc
Well-Known Member
It's not an obsession, it's and addiction.
I have one tank where we got the rock mail order and one where I hand picked pieces from the LFS. Them mail order was a lot cheaper and more porus. I was able to choose shapes I liked from the LFS. If/when I next aquascape I will probably mix the rock from the 2 tanks since there are advantaged to both.
I have one tank where we got the rock mail order and one where I hand picked pieces from the LFS. Them mail order was a lot cheaper and more porus. I was able to choose shapes I liked from the LFS. If/when I next aquascape I will probably mix the rock from the 2 tanks since there are advantaged to both.
Hi, my name is Mike, and I'm a reef addict.
It's been 5 minutes since I've last checked my tank......
Please don't mention a second tank - we still have the 125g out on the patio under a tarp and are trying to sell it... If we don't soon, I can see us turning into a coral prop tank... because we don't spend enough on electricity as it is......
It's been 5 minutes since I've last checked my tank......
Please don't mention a second tank - we still have the 125g out on the patio under a tarp and are trying to sell it... If we don't soon, I can see us turning into a coral prop tank... because we don't spend enough on electricity as it is......
With all the twists and turns this thread has taken, could you add the url to your new tank journal? I'm sure plenty of people would love to follow along.
And if you've decided on what you're going to start with (equipment) and other decisions and want to publish them, please do that. You'll get lots of comments, no doubt, but probably some good additional advice related to them.
And of course, start date, progress, etc!
Have fun with the project!
sambrinar
Well-Known Member
I have gotten my rock from Dr. Foster/smith, they have a specific package for nano reef. It was great rock, good price, full of coraline algae. I get all of my stuff online, no LFS around here within 120 miles
here is a link if you are interested. some of it is "cured" and some is not. It will still cycle regardless
Live Rock and Live Sand: Live Saltwater Aquarium Rock and Sand
here is a link if you are interested. some of it is "cured" and some is not. It will still cycle regardless
Live Rock and Live Sand: Live Saltwater Aquarium Rock and Sand
Live Rock - Tampa Bay Saltwater Aqua cultured Live Rock
This rock has the most diversity of lifeforms on and with it of any live rock I have ever seen. It is kept in water from the moment it is pulled out of the ocean until it arrives at your home. Yes it is shipped in water, not wrapped in wet paper. It is maricultured rock so does not contribute to the destruction of the worlds coral reefs. It is however denser than a lot of the Pacific live rock. It generally comes colonized by five different species of hard corals, tunicates, clams, feather dusters, coralines, sponges, algaes, invertebrates, plants and other life. It is more expensive than the typical cheaper, poorly handled, Fiji rock, as it sells for $5 per pound. I initially started buying it because they would ship it to me airport to airport which is cheaper than UPS or FedEx to Alaska, but after receiving two first shipments and see the continued excellent quality, my reason for buying it is because it is the best rock I can find for providing that wide diversity of life forms which is so nice to have in a reef tank.
This rock has the most diversity of lifeforms on and with it of any live rock I have ever seen. It is kept in water from the moment it is pulled out of the ocean until it arrives at your home. Yes it is shipped in water, not wrapped in wet paper. It is maricultured rock so does not contribute to the destruction of the worlds coral reefs. It is however denser than a lot of the Pacific live rock. It generally comes colonized by five different species of hard corals, tunicates, clams, feather dusters, coralines, sponges, algaes, invertebrates, plants and other life. It is more expensive than the typical cheaper, poorly handled, Fiji rock, as it sells for $5 per pound. I initially started buying it because they would ship it to me airport to airport which is cheaper than UPS or FedEx to Alaska, but after receiving two first shipments and see the continued excellent quality, my reason for buying it is because it is the best rock I can find for providing that wide diversity of life forms which is so nice to have in a reef tank.
Spex
Member
I believe I am going to buy live rock from petco. I know its probably a bad idea but I feel I have all the time in the world to cycle and I have nothing to lose this early in the game. Its only 2.50 a lb. But in the future that site looked great. Also http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/reef-chronicles/33898-55-gallon-adventure.html#post497114 is where Im starting my tank journal.
Darn, they want $5 per pound up here and never have rocks larger than a mans fist.
Look at what online? There are many live rocks onlne. Some good, some fair, some not much better than live rock a week after seeded with an average live rock. Fair or lesser rock will never be any better than fair or lesser rock until they are covered with and surrounded by those diverse life forms that come included with good to excellent rock. Mari cultured live rock just happens to be one of the easiest and cheapest ways to get those diverse life styles introduced into your tank. Some people call some of those life forms hitchhikers, some are merely called critters and they can include many things that will live in and on your rock in and on your substrate and feed fish and corals and keep your sand bed stirred. They are much more expensive to buy as inoculations than to get for free with quality live rock. It is not even uncommon to get gobis, little star fish, and brittle stars as well as snails and hermit crabs as hitch hikers. Good bargain considering the cost to buy those things later. Some people do start out with just a portion of their live rock as cheap rock and then buy good rock later to fill out their needs. This is also safer as it is healthier for the critters and hitchhikers to not go through an uncontrolled cycling. IMO
