Neil's Red Sea Max C-250 Journey

neildradford

Member
PREMIUM
I may or may not have just discovered a contributing factor. After talking to my wife I have found that she has been using a fabric freshener spray on the sofas in the lounge (where my tank is) and not only that, she has been using an anti bacterial spray on the tanks cabinet doors to remove my little boys grubby hand prints.

Needless to say, I've told her that we can't use sprays, air fresheners or similar in the lounge. I actually have a bottle of RO water and soft cloths for cleaning the tank cabinet. I guess she forgot I had told her all this a while back.
Thoughts?
 

BigJim70

Member
I would do some research on where your alk should be when using nopox. I dose vodka and I have to keep my alk below 9 or my corals lose color. I'm not sure if that's the case with all carbon dosing, but it could be the cause.
 

Danreef

Well-Known Member
Dear Neil, why are you dosing ?

You have a few corals in a 65G tank. With a 10% WC you have more than what you need.

Moreover, by this time that tank is matured and able to support your bioload with just water changes.

If that where MY tank I will stop any dosing. Weekly WC have to be enought. Control your water quality "feed but not too much".

Sorry I can't be of more help
Daniel

I want to provide you an example:

This picture was taken 6-8 months ago. This tank is 1 1/2 years old. Is a 14G with a final volume of 8 G . I change ~2G per week. NO Dosing. Is mostly soft corals. The amount of sps I have there is similar to yours.


Now some of the corals you see on the sand are gone. Mushroom decided to leave the rock and zoas were moved to my sps and I lost some. When I am back home I will post a fresh picture. Nevertheless, you can compared the bioload of your tank vs this one.

Cheers again
Daniel
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
Neil - if it helps put your mind at ease - it's likely not caused by the Goby. Unless you have a DSB (deep sand bed defined as at least 4 inches) the goby sifting and moving your sand is actually good for your tank as it is helping to remove detritus. I, like others, have a pistol shrimp and goby pair and while they are a royal PITA with the sand moving an piling up on rocks and coral, they are good for the tank.

Similar to the spraying of cleaners - it sounds like you have had your hands in the tank a whole lot lately. This can also cause or contribute to your problem. The oils and chemicals on our hands (soaps etc) can cause issues.

Don't discount the added "help" from little ones as well. If your sons are anything like mine - there is no shortage of what they can get into.

Are you running any carbon at all?

Also - the issue may be the dosing combined with the frequent water changes. Raising of alk has to be fine very slowly and over time or you can get a very negative response from your corals. I would strive for stability right now. Chasing numbers will not help. I know what red sea's program says and there is a strong argument for a higher dkh in a tank that is growing, but that will also require a heavy amount of calcium dosing to maintain balance and is not as forgiving to swings in parameters. This is especially true in a new tank.

Full maturity for a tank can tank a year or longer. Yours is mature enough to handle the bio load you have so it does not sound like that is the issue.
 

Joeys Tank

Well-Known Member
Jolly good morning, Neil.

How is the tank? Have you been able to track down the issue? Calcium precipitate from dosing? Increased bio-load from snails spawning? Water still cloudy? Have you done anything differently in the last two days and have you noticed a change?

Pulling for you.
 

neildradford

Member
PREMIUM
Thanks for the help and concern guys.

Things are looking better today. The Acans have puffed right up and most things are open. The SPS still look white as a ghost, but that won't change over night. Not even sure how you know if an SPS is dead?

Water is looking clearer. Haven't really done a lot, but I did take out some sand, which I will keep doing gradually. Reason being, I had far too much, roughly 3 1/2". Had to top up with a little salt mix when I removed it. The Goby's digging isn't as bad at the lower level of sand. He may be safe from extraction (for now).
I also didn't dose anything yesterday.

One thing I wonder if could be my issue, when I dose calc and alk, I dose into the DT (in the pumps flow), but I think the flow has taken it straight to where the SPS are. I will dose into the back chambers from now on.

My big order arrived today, list is a few posts up. Will be changing out for the new carbon and see if that helps any.

Have ordered some citric acid as I want to clean all my pump etc, haven't done that as yet.

Thanks for reading guys.
 

Joeys Tank

Well-Known Member
Hmmm, with the water clarity improving ... I am leaning towards the dosing causing calc precip. Are you planning on holding off on dosing for a period of time? Interested to see what happens after a week of not doing it.

Dosing directly into the DT is usually not recommended due to high concentrations hitting your corals without being dilluted first in the sump area. I struggle with doing my WCs directly in the DT instead of from the sump area and have been rethinking my approach. I started pulling and replacing directly from the DT due to the amount of water I was changing out but I would notice my gorgonians not happy at all with me when I do this. I plan on swapping out less water more frequently from the sump area which will allow all of my equipment to do their thing (mixing, temp, etc) prior to the water circulating into the DT.

Have fun with your arrival today. Good to hear things are starting to look up for you. (I would have hated to see you tap out so early after putting so much into it).
 

neildradford

Member
PREMIUM
Thanks Joey. I'm at a bit of a loss with what to do about dosing. Like I said previously, my levels do drop on a daily basis which is equal to 10ml calc and 60ml alk. I think my levels would drop too low if I didn't.
I usually leave 15-20 between dosing each element. Is that correct?

I do my water changes from my DT (have no sump per se). I may look to see if it's possible for me to do it using the rear chambers. I use an AWC.

Just opening my box of new gadgets, fun fun.
 

Joeys Tank

Well-Known Member
As far as dosing goes ... I have done very (very) little research into it. Mainly because my tank is only 3 months old. I am very cautious of "rapid growth" and "enhanced coral" programs since they feel like "fast" ways of doing things in my tank. Time and time again I read people providing the piece of advice "nothing good happens quickly in a reef tank". Now, in no way am I trying to "soap box" this as a lecture at all nor am I challenging anything which is different than the approach I am taking. The key to learning is to have an open mind.

So, I did a quick bit of reading on dosing. There are many warnings about the balance between Ca, Alk, and Mg. That changing one will affect the other. Too much too quickly will cause swings in the others leading to rapid imbalances which affect marine life. From what I have been able to follow in your thread, it seems like you are taking it slow but perhaps a "daily dosing" in small levels in a new tank may not be a safe approach.

One site recommends dosing Ca and Alk at opposite times of the day to prevent calcium precipitation. Based on the white cloudy water you were mentioning, and if you are dosing Ca and Alk 15-20 min apart, I feel that this is what is happening in your tank. A very detailed read on Ca and Alk can be found here http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/.

When dosing Alk, some recommend dosing right before the lights come on or when pH is at its lowest. Also, another comment I read is that "if you are having difficulty maintaining Ca and Alk levels, then you have most likely neglected magnesium". A balance has Mg at three times the level of Ca. If the Mg is lower than that, it is likely that Ca will precipitate and be of no use.

Here is another great read on dosing that has sparked many questions that I want to persue further. http://www.reef2reef.com/blog/dosing-rules-dosing-101-for-your-reef-aquarium/. One thing I found nice in this article is at the end of it where the author lists out steps in how to get to know your tank better. I feel like this will springboard me into 10 hours of additional reading as I apply it to my tank.
 

zigman

Member
Hi Neil, sorry to hear about your troubles when your tank was looking so great. I am no expert, having started my tank just 2 months ago, but thought I might share a few thoughts. I too decided I needed to raise my alkalinity to Redsea reccd 12.1 and added reef supplement b at daily max amount trying to get it higher. Never really succeeded in getting it more than 11.1, then a week later it had dropped back to 8.1. Added calcium at the same time per directions, and what I got was unhappy corals that caused me a lot of worry. I did a 15g water change, stopped adding anything, and corals seemed to perk back up. I still have trouble with adjusting my skimmer, am losing faith in my test readings, but am thinking that sticking with water changes alone seems to be working better for me at this point. Just something to think about.
 

neildradford

Member
PREMIUM
Really appreciate you guys taking the time to try and help me out, you're all brilliant and I appreciate it heaps.
I got quite a bit done today. I took delivery of my MP40s with Reeflink today, along with some new carbon (and filter bags). Also got Hanna checkers for Calcium, Phosphorus and Alkalinity.

I have rewired (re routed them) everything and got the MP40s installed. Haven't had the chance to play with them yet, they're just running in Nutrient Transport mode at 25%.
Pulled my old carbon, and after rinsing in hot water (per instructions) then putting in bag, I added to the media holder.

I still feel like something came and went with my tank as it's heaps clearer now and corals are perking up (especially now with the added flow). The toadstools like the extra flow, they're toying with opening up more.
I only missed one day of dosing (2 including today).

Took a full set of tests, results are:

SG:1.026
Temp:26
pH:8.2 (Red Sea Marine Care Kit)
No3:1.5 (Red Sea Foundation Pro Kit)
Po4:0.012 (Hanna)
dKH:9.63 (Hanna)
Ca:410 (Hanna)
Mg:1420 (Red Sea Foundation Pro Kit)
Nh3:0 (Red Sea (Red Sea Algae Control Kit)
No2:0 (Red Sea Algae Control Kit)

From those numbers it indicates I have dropped by nearly 1dKH in a day (0.8) and 70ppm of Ca in 4 days. The Ca is drop is less than I have been dosing for and the KH is what I have been dosing.
Mag is dropping about 10ppm a day, but never drops to under 1390. I don't dose for Mag.
Nitrate and phosphate seem fine to me, unless I'm missing something?
SG is checked with a Red Sea Refractometer which I check before each use (only with RO, I don't have the proper fluid).

Goby has drastically reduced his digging, which is a relief.
You know what, I'm looking at my tank as I write this, I think this is the clearest I've ever seen my tank since I started. I'm also seeing my fish swimming in places they never normally swim, the Chromis are schooling near my return outlet and my Flame Angel is with them.

I was expecting the MP40s to be noisier than they are, they're actually quiet. Like them a lot. Just need to read about the modes etc and figure out about anti sync. I have the Reeflink app on my phone, gotta figure that out too. I see it has a section for scheduling the pumps.

Im pretty certain I've lost my plating montipora, it was ghostly white all over and now has a tinge of yellow (I'm color blind). How do you know if it's dead? I don't want to bin it if there's a chance it will heal.

This post is a bit of a ramble, I do apologise. It's been a long day and it's getting late here (1am).
I'm still in a quandary about whether to dose or not. My water change isn't until Friday. My alkalinity will drop to around 7 by then and Calcium will be around 360.

Anyway, enough rambling. Thanks for reading and again, thanks so much for all the help and encouragement.

Take care.
 

taunyak

New Member
I have the same tank. Just 2-3 weeks old. Since I have never had a tank of any kind before, I am having it serviced until I get the hang of it. Like your daily logs. Think I will start monitoring my own tank and take a bit more control over it. My issue...HELP!! After my service and my complaint that my tank hand been running a wee hot (80.2F)....he turned it down somewhere and now my tank is too cold. In the 75's. I could call him but that would just irritate me. Yes I am stubborn and I want to do this on my own. Two of my cleaning crew have already died. Unsure if this is related. Can you tell me where I can adjust the heat on this tank?? You tube has been completely useless. Thanks.
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
Neil - excellent news on the tank and congrats in the new toys!

I would monitor the levels for the next several days with the Hanna checkers. It sounds like your tank is coming back into balance which will happen with time naturally. (And also will happen with a calcium precipitation event). Let's get a couple of days of results, maybe even a week or two with a water change before you start dosing again. Agree that you may need a daily maintenance dose but it sounds like you were dosing a whole lot for that tank. Also most two part should be dosed at equal amounts to maintain balance and from your post above it sounds like you had radically different amounts of calcium and alk that you were dosing daily. Usually you don't want to use two-part to raise your levels, only maintain them.
 

neildradford

Member
PREMIUM
taunyak, if you raise the cover of the tank fully, then look in the left rear section, you should see your heating tube. This will have a red dial on top. Make sure it is pointing at 26. There is a light further down the tube to indicate when it is heating, make sure this is working. Hope this helps.

newo, I have to admit I don't understand the term 'two part'. I use Red Sea Reef Foundation A for calcium, and Red Sea Reef Foundation B for Alkalinity. Is this two part?
Im struggling to understand why it's wrong to dose the same as what I'm losing per day (I hate being a newbie lol). I was dosing to maintain, not raise.
If I'm losing 0.8 of alk and 8-10ppm of calc, what do I dose to?
I thought I had all this figured out with direction from RedSeaKev, looks like I'm back to square one.
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
Neil - sorry about that. "two part" refers to a two stage dosing product, for calcium and alkalinity. Most "two-part" dosing products refer to an "A" or "B" and often include trace elements in addition to what is used to raise or maintain alkalinity or calcium. Most "two-part" dosing products are designed to be dosed at equivalent amounts, to maintain the ionic balance in salt water. The problem when you use a "two-part" dosing product to change only one variable (in your case you were dosing alkalinity at a much higher rate than the calcium) is that it also doses other elements at a much higher rate as well, which is often an unknown from the manufacturer.

I personally do not use Red Sea's reef foundation program, but their program is a bit different than most others, in the fact that it's really focused on all three elements (Alk, Calc and Mag) in a "three-part" as opposed to the "two-part" from most other manufacturers. Based on what I could find online, their program looks like it is designed to be used independently to adjust variations in each of the "big three" - alk, calc and mag. I was a bit sleepy this morning with my early-morning reply, so my apologies if I caused some confusion.

The issue in your tank looks like it was out-of-balance, which is most likely caused by the dosing you were doing. The recommendations you have been receiving from several members all are driving towards getting your tank back in balance, and then determining the daily uptake that is occurring with your current stock. If you continue to dose during this period (particularly if you continue to dose at the incorrect amounts), then this makes the problem harder to diagnose and cure. There are a lot of variables, and the first one that we can remove is the potential for an error being made in the amount that is dosed daily. So - if you add nothing to the tank, what is occurring is that the corals are using the elements daily at some unknown rate. Also, because your tank was out of balance, if a precipitation event did occur (which it sounds like it did), then we need to let the water find a balance back to naturally occurring variables, and not artificially created ones.

At the same time - we have to be careful. SPS corals are particularly sensitive to large changes in alkalinity in short periods of time. All corals are sensitive to massive changes of calcium, but your tank as it stands today is well within a normal "range" on calcium so this is not as big of a concern. We want to keep a close eye on that alk number, with the goal of keeping it at a small fluctuation throughout the day. To do this - you want to test every day at the same time, using the same test kit. That way you can measure the daily uptake and match the dosing of that element to that daily uptake.

Water changes introduce another variable. The salt mix you use is likely going to be at amounts different than what you find in your tank. Ideally - they would be the same. However, different types of coral have different preferred levels of these elements for "ideal" growth. We are creating artificial environments in our tanks anyway, so you will find all kinds of different opinions on what is ideal. Plus the mix of coral and all kinds of other variables in your particular tank will likely define your "ideal" levels. Most reefers target an alk level around 9, as it is the most "forgiving" level that allows for mistakes and other changes, and is close to the levels that occur in natural sea water. Some that are SPS dominant, for example, target as high as 13 as they are pushing for high growth and color in that particular coral. The challenge with 13 - it requires inflated amounts of magnesium and calcium, and is close to saturation levels, so the opportunity for a precipitation event to occur and radically change your numbers (and with the resulting negative impact to your coral) is much higher.

So when you do a water change, you are introducing another variation in the levels in your tank, as the water you are adding is most likely going to be different than what you are removing. The percentage of the change is another variable. That's why Oxy recommended that you target maintaining the levels that you have immediately following your normal water change routine. If you can maintain that level consistently and daily, you will have a very stable environment that will help your coral recover and grow. That environment may be different than what the "recommended" levels are from Red Sea.

Now - I am far, far from an expert, but this is what I've come to understand on a very basic level from being in the hobby for a couple of years. Others have a much greater understanding and experience than I do on these things, so please correct me if I am wrong. I hope this post is useful for you.
 

neildradford

Member
PREMIUM
newo, thanks so much for your detailed reply. Every word made complete sense, well written. I wish I was good with words haha.

I have a question in relation to what you said about water changes being a variable to my levels.
Using my own poor logic, I was assuming that no matter where your alk calc and mag were, you would always end up with these levels being raised by a water change for as long as your tank levels are lower than the salt mix.
It wouldn't be until your tank matched the salt mix that you wouldn't see any change? Is my logic out of whack?

For example:
If my tank was 9dKH, then I perform a water change, it raises to just over 10.
If my tank was 7dKh, it would raise to another figure, say 7.5-8
If my tank was 12dKH, it wouldn't raise at all as the salt mix is the same.
The same would be true for the other two main elements.

As I say, that's just how my logic figured it to be and I'm probably way off.
Thoughts?
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
Neil - to me, your logic is dead on. The problem - you likely are not going to be able to sustain levels matched exactly to the salt mix. Nor would you really want to as often those levels are elevated to "replenish" tanks that are inherently very, very different.

Additionally - your salt mix is likely a bit different each and every time you mix your salt. Also, your coral uptake will be different as your coral grows, or you add or remove coral from your system. Coraline algae, clams, etc. also are "users" of these elements. Your tank will most likely have a different consistent level than what you would achieve with a salt mix. And, unless you are dosing constantly in very tiny amounts throughout the day, the levels will change from morning to evening, as your PH will also change. So unless you do everything exactly the same every time, at the exact same time of day and your coral did not grow and your stocking level did not change....etc., etc.

These are the reasons why we use a range for these elements. That, and the fact that most of the equipment we are using is fairly limited in their degree of accuracy. (also alkalinity is really not what we are testing for, but is really just an indicator we use because of the limitations of home use test kits, but that's a whole other level of discussion that I would not even attempt)

So yes, if your alk is lower than the salt mix, the water change will increase the levels. To what, is determined by the levels before the change, the % of water changed and the levels in the salt mix, and whether a small amount of precipitation may occur during the change. You can likely figure it out exactly, but that is a lot of math, with a lot of variables. This is part of the argument for doing smaller water changes, but more often. You won't have as big of an impact in your levels as a large water change. The downside - smaller water changes do not quickly remove elevated levels of phosphates or nitrates as larger water changes do.

This is the danger in "chasing numbers". You want to strive for consistency, and accept that you are going to see variations. Strong, healthy coral will be able to handle these variations. The goal is to keep the variations to a minimum as much as possible, so you can have strong, healthy coral. (can you see a paradox there???).

Much easier to try an target the result after the water change. Or take the impact of a water change into consideration with the dosing that you do.

The human factor also comes into this. Testing water is not the most fun activity. It gets old after a couple of months. With time and plenty of mistakes, you will be able to look at your tank and tell if something is wrong or off, and know that you need to run some tests to find out what is going on.
 

neildradford

Member
PREMIUM
Another excellent reply newo.
Based on what you've just said, could you tell me if my plan (already had this in mind before my troubles) is reasonable.

I plan to keep my dKh around 9, which is what I have been doing, calc around 460, mag I can't do much about, it's always a tad high.
I know that ater a water change my dKh raises by 1, calc only raises a fraction and mag also raises a little. I do a 23% water change each Friday using my automatic water change. The unit doesn't allow me to do a lower figure.
I was planning to get the GHL doser 2 with wi-if when it is available early November and will set it to dose over the course of a day, to get stability and no chance of precipitation.
I'm hoping I can set it to miss dosing of alk on the day of the water change, as this is essentially my dose.
Obviously the dosing amounts can and will change, but will test regularly to spot this and adjust accordingly.

What do you think?
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
Sounds like a well thought out plan! The only thing that would cause me concern if I were you is the increase in 1 dkh from a water change. That's a big change for some of the more sensitive coral. Over time, you may want to increase the consistent alk level in your tank so that there is not as big of a change, since you are unable to change the % of water that is changed at one time with your auto-changer. Or, switch to a salt that has lower levels in it when mixed. (sometimes the "amped" salt mixes can be too much)

I should add - alk at 9, and calc at 460 is (I believe) considered out-of-balance. You may have better success with a lower calcium target.
 

Joeys Tank

Well-Known Member
From the ReefKeeping link on calcium, alkalinity, magnesium I provided earlier, there is a Ca-Alk balance chart.

Ca at 460ppm has an Alk balance of 5.0 meq/L which is 14 dKH.
 
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