lowering alkalinity

eaze333

Member
Hi all,
looking to see what the easiest way is to lower alkalinity. I have another tank set up and want to put some of my sps frags into it. My display tank dkh is 9.5. The other tank which is a 30 gal is at 12dkh. That is the salt mix right into the tank, nothing has been dosed. Even if I acclimate the corals I am still worried about the large jump in dkh.

Thanks!
 

sasquatch

Brunt of all Jokes~
PREMIUM
Hi all,
looking to see what the easiest way is to lower alkalinity. I have another tank set up and want to put some of my sps frags into it. My display tank dkh is 9.5. The other tank which is a 30 gal is at 12dkh.That is the salt mix right into the tank, nothing has been dosed. Even if I acclimate the corals I am still worried about the large jump in dkh.

Thanks!

not to be silly but your asking an impossible question?
The easiest way to correct the issue is to supply more information, like PH,Cal, Mag, and brand of salt and ro/di or not,did you really.."That is the salt mix right into the tank" or did you mix the water and salt in normal fashion then add it?
 

eaze333

Member
Ok, I'll try that again.

It is a fresh tank. Mixed salt water as normal and filled tank. It is a 30gal tank, I have never had livestock in it. Used Red sea coral pro which has a high dkh. I tested 215ppm, about 12dkh. Ph is 8.2, Cal is 475. So I am saying straight out of bucket so to speak this is what I have. Now this is the same salt I have been using a year now. In my display tank the high alkalinity obviously doesn't affect anything doing 10% water changes weekly and the amount of hard corals I have in the display. I am just concerned about the large jump in alkalinity even after I do the aclimation. I have alot of fags on a frag rack in the display and it takes away from the appearance of the display. I also should say that I have the 30gal setup at another house so I am hoping there was some chemical solution to drop that alkalinity. Raising is pretty easy, I figured there must be something for lowering it. If I add RO/DI I drop the salinity and hence need to add more salt.
 

nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
I wanted to share this really good post I recently read by:

Anthony Calfo

Alkalinity for Marine Systems

"Alkalinity and pH are distinctly different from each other, although their definitions and functions can be easily confused. For those of you as uninformed about water chemistry as I was when I first began, alkalinity is essentially a measurement of water's ability to neutralize acids. It is a measure of the buffering capacity of a system while pH is basically the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions in water, in terms of acidity or alkalinity. The alkalinity of water regarding pH issues merely refers to the basic end of a pH scale (alkaline) in contrast to the acidic end of the scale and does not reflect the buffering capacity of a system. It is easy to believe that water with alkaline pH is likely to be high in alkalinity (buffering capacity). However, this is not necessarily true. Water with a high pH, but a low alkalinity is regarded as unstable. Such water will quickly decline in pH with the natural accumulation of organic acids in aquarium systems.

Regarding the care of reef invertebrates, water that is low in alkalinity but high in pH is generally undesirable. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for aquarists to test their systems and report such conditions. Alkalinity depletion is caused sometimes by the misapplication of calcium supplements and/or a lack of water changes. It occurs naturally, as stated, from the neutralization of acids and removal of carbonates for calcification primarily. Ironically, it is obvious to aquarists that corals need calcium to grow, but carbonates are often ignored. Calcium supplements are some of the first and only products that many aquarists use for reef invertebrates culture. It is often forgotten, however, that coral skeletons are comprised of calcium carbonate. Calcium additions without balanced carbonate additions are about as useless as the keys to one thousand cars in an empty parking lot. And so, misinformed aquarists may continue to dose calcium without noticing any significant growth among corals in the collection (and in observance of an alkalinity that continues to fall). To some extent, an imbalance between free calcium and carbonate levels is natural, although unfriendly at times to successful reef aquariology. Grossly stated, high alkalinity and high calcium levels are mutually exclusive. Simply stated, seawater can only hold so many dissolved solids. As alkalinity increases (the levels of carbonates and bicarbonates) there is less "room" for the saturation of other dissolved elements such as calcium. Calcium and alkalinity in practical applications exist in a tenuous Hi-Lo relationship. Until recently, systems with high alkalinity and low calcium were uncommon because of a poor understanding about alkalinity and the popular application of calcium supplements.

The advent and success of calcium reactors has made some aquarists change their thoughts on ways to maximize calcification. Aquarists are divided on which Hi-Low methodology for maximum calcification works best. Some aquarists dose kalkwasser aggressively to raise calcium levels and accept the coincident drop depression of alkalinity. This technique has grown many corals to impressive size with numerous other benefits from the supplementation of calcium hydroxide. The intent of some aquarists is to maintain calcium levels above 400 ppm.

As such, calcium hydroxide indirectly contributes to the alkalinity of a system by neutralizing acids that would otherwise exhaust buffers from the system. Hydroxide molecules are "spent" rather than carbonate molecules. And so, high calcium and adequate alkalinity can be maintained with the proper application of kalkwasser. While I am inclined to favor this technique for simplicity and the small expense incurred relative to reactor set-ups, it is admittedly difficult to maintain and potentially dangerous when pushed to extreme. It is an error to think that if the addition of x grams of calcium is a good, then 2x grams are better. At calcium levels extending beyond saturation, or during events when calcium is added quickly, it is possible to disturb the balanced relationship between calcium and alkalinity and cause a sudden precipitation of calcium carbonate, commonly known as a "snowstorm", which can have tragic ramifications. Spontaneous precipitation of calcium carbonate occurs when pH levels rapidly climb beyond a certain threshold, which causes crystalline carbonate "snow" to fall out of solution in an essentially insoluble form. The tragedy of the event for a system suffering from this condition is that the reaction must run its course before corrective measures can be taken. The addition of buffers in an attempt to counter the declining alkalinity serves only to feed the precipitous reaction. An aquarist is resigned to watch the spawn of his error to completion, which leaves the buffering
capacity of the system at a dangerously low level. The stress of the sudden change in water quality can be significantly harmful to marine organisms as well. Water changes and any methods of damage control that insure stability in the environment will be necessary. Despite the inherent risks, I strongly favor and recommend the use of properly dosed calcium hydroxide in at least small quantities for most systems.

One of the very best ways to maintain alkalinity in reef invertebrates systems is the employment of a calcium reactor. Calcium reactors are vessels filled with calcium carbonate material that is slowly dissolved with a supply of carbon dioxide. Lingering or accumulating carbon dioxide in aquarium systems depletes alkalinity and lowers pH, as the presence of carbon dioxide is neutralized by carbonate ions in seawater. It can also contribute to undesirable growths of algae if neglected. Carbon dioxide and carbonic acid in solution are easily driven off with vigorous aeration. Properly operated, calcium reactors do maintain high alkalinity and reasonably good calcium levels (although they are significantly and proportionately lower). Although they are no less dangerous to use than calcium hydroxide for supplying calcium and alkalinity, calcium reactors are convenient and efficient devices. I strongly recommend the use of calcium reactors for aquarists favoring stony corals in display or culture, and for aquarists displeased with the tedious application of calcium hydroxide. Calcium hydroxide, however, does have additional benefits such as saponification (improving protein skimmer performance) and phosphate precipitation. Many European hobbyists rely on calcium reactors to maintain high levels of alkalinity with supplementation from calcium hydroxide. This has proven to be an excellent methodology for promoting the growth of calcareous organisms.

The oldest and most common method of increasing the buffering capacity of salt water is the addition of sea buffer. Sea buffer is basically (no pun intended) a powdered mix of bicarbonates, carbonates, and borates. Such mixes are designed to increase the alkalinity (buffering capacity) of seawater without raising the pH beyond a set point. Some buffering products do raise the pH of seawater and should only be used with caution. Baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, is a significant portion of most dry mixes of sea buffer. I do not recommend using sodium bicarbonate alone for most aquarists, especially new and less experienced individuals, without the strong admonition that it can raise pH quickly and dangerously without due caution. Baking soda should only be used in small portions when water quality can be tested frequently. Concentrated liquid buffer solutions are becoming popular and seem to be most useful when dosed with proportionate amounts of calcium supplementation in commercial two-part mixes.

It is recommended that alkalinity in captive systems be maintained between 7-12 dKH. There are, in fact, several ways to test for alkalinity in seawater. Some aquarists prefer to measure alkalinity in milliequivalents per liter [meq/L] (the target is more than 3 meq/L). Buffering capacity is also described as carbonate hardness, measured in ppm, but this is only a measure of carbonates and bicarbonate components. Total alkalinity measures all buffers and is higher than carbonate hardness. Commercial test kits for
testing alkalinity are sometimes difficult to read. Aquarists who have color blindness, vision impairment or other difficulties in reading colorimetric charts should consult distributors or fellow aquarists (marine aquarium societies, Internet, etc.) on brands of test kits with conspicuous color changes at the titration point.

Lastly, there are implications that difficulties maintaining calcium and alkalinity may be linked to inappropriate magnesium levels. Magnesium should be maintained at roughly three times the level of calcium. High magnesium levels are encountered by inappropriate supplementation and can be lethal to some reef invertebrates. Aquarists have most often reported sensitivity in mollusks and starfish such as "turbo" snails and brittle/serpent starfish. Low magnesium levels, as in economy brand synthetic sea
salts have likewise been implicated in difficulties maintaining free calcium and alkalinity adequately. This is yet another reason for maintaining proper water quality through water exchanges and testing with supplementation."
 

sasquatch

Brunt of all Jokes~
PREMIUM
so a couple of options 1, test your magnesium 2, water change with a low alk salt mix,3, raise the other tank... it will come down as acids are introduced to the system, and how big a deal is excess "buffering capacity" anyway?
 

eaze333

Member
yea, I suppose I could slowly raise the display up to same level and move things after. probably the easiest
 

dmatt88

Has been struck by the ban stick
lol, can I ask why you avoid the science?

Last time he made salt it became a laxative. He forever avoids chemistry. His nitrate poo factory turned ugly. Brown water. Bad.

,.......don't believe this matt guy
 
Ok, I'll try that again.

It is a fresh tank. Mixed salt water as normal and filled tank. It is a 30gal tank, I have never had livestock in it. Used Red sea coral pro which has a high dkh. I tested 215ppm, about 12dkh. Ph is 8.2, Cal is 475. So I am saying straight out of bucket so to speak this is what I have. Now this is the same salt I have been using a year now. In my display tank the high alkalinity obviously doesn't affect anything doing 10% water changes weekly and the amount of hard corals I have in the display. I am just concerned about the large jump in alkalinity even after I do the aclimation. I have alot of fags on a frag rack in the display and it takes away from the appearance of the display. I also should say that I have the 30gal setup at another house so I am hoping there was some chemical solution to drop that alkalinity. Raising is pretty easy, I figured there must be something for lowering it. If I add RO/DI I drop the salinity and hence need to add more salt.

DKH 12 and yet PH is only 8.2. Are you confident with the test results?
Has the new mix had time to stabilize and aerate?

Muriatic acid or vinegar will lower Alk . It will also lower the PH.

I think it won’t stay that way. But for the first fill why not mix water from the DT with the new water.

Hope this helps, -JOHN
 

sasquatch

Brunt of all Jokes~
PREMIUM
DKH 12 and yet PH is only 8.2. Are you confident with the test results?
Has the new mix had time to stabilize and aerate?

Muriatic acid or vinegar will lower Alk . It will also lower the PH.

I think it won’t stay that way. But for the first fill why not mix water from the DT with the new water.

Hope this helps, -JOHN
This does not help... without knowing Magnesium levels its a crap shoot that could kill anything going in the tank, sg,cal/alk/mag and sometimes Y are all connected, first thing to do is check mag, second step is to ensure proper aeration of the tank to remove any excess c02, then a correction can be assesed
 
This does not help... without knowing Magnesium levels its a crap shoot that could kill anything going in the tank, sg,cal/alk/mag and sometimes Y are all connected, first thing to do is check mag, second step is to ensure proper aeration of the tank to remove any excess c02, then a correction can be assesed

Maybe I misunderstood his post. But I thought the issue was moving corals from his stabilized chemistry in the DT to the over bloated water from the fresh mixed RS coral pro salt without alk shock. Don’t think it was about balancing the water chemistry. Since he already has a DT up and running.

Yes ( I could not agree more on you chem thoughts), needs to know with some confidence the true test results (inc . mag). I doubt the frag tank will stay bloated like that once it is up running and managed. So it is just initially that I thought was of concern.

He asked how to drop alk and that’s how. I would not do that and also suggested that the water needs to aerate and stabilize before he knows anything and suggested he used water from the DT to balance out the frag tank.

What I don’t understand is why recommend to screw with a DT that is fine to match a frag tank that is not. Seems bizarre.

If it was me. New water goes in DT while DT water is filling frag tank. No more problem.

Good luck!
 

sasquatch

Brunt of all Jokes~
PREMIUM
the entire point here from the beginning was to help someone understand that things have consequences, messing with chemistry can make stuff blow up lol, raising the original tanks alk is safe and not so hard to do, throwing a dart at the "lets try this board" for the new tank? maybe not so good:clink:
 
the entire point here from the beginning was to help someone understand that things have consequences, messing with chemistry can make stuff blow up lol, raising the original tanks alk is safe and not so hard to do, throwing a dart at the "lets try this board" for the new tank? Maybe not so good:clink:

ic

-john
 

eaze333

Member
Why I am moving stuff out of the display into a frag tank? I do have a full frag rack hanging in the display that I would like in the frag tank.
I would like to put anything I trim into the frag tank. I set the frag tank up in another location. Not the same house for lack of space. I hadn't planned on moving water across town, but probably would have been best. So tank is already set up at this point with new salt water. I did not test the mag, but I am confident of PH,cal,and alk. I used a digital PH probe calibrated a month ago,Red Sea calcium test, and Hanna didgital alkalinity which I have been using for the past 8 months. Coincidentally the test results of the 3 were just about spot on with what the label on the bucket of salt "claims" that it contains. So my ph result of 8.2 and dkh of 12 is right in line with the label claim of ph 8.2-8.4 and dkh of 12.3-12.7. The label claims mag at 1360-1420.. I have not added magnesium to my display tank in about 3 months and is currently at 1410 using Salifert test.
So it is this initial set up that is of concern. At some point I have to put something it. My display has kdh of 9.3-9.5 so 12 in the frag tank, to me seems like a big jump. Just not looking for any RTN action.
What if moving my tank water across town wasn't an option, what would one do? I am moving sps, not mushrooms or something a little more forgiving.
 

eaze333

Member
I do understand that if I actually had some sps already in the tank the alkalinity would come down naturally.
 
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