Leeching phosphates need advice

sasquatch

sasquatch

Brunt of all Jokes~
PREMIUM
suggestion, take a qt of ro/di water and check levels, add a cap of flourish and re test, don't think it will read as its very dilute
Total Nitrogen contents of flourish
0.07%
Available Phosphate ( P2O5)
0.01%
Soluble Potash
0.37%
Calcium (Ca)
0.14%
Magnesium (Mg)
0.11%
Sulfur (S)
0.2773%
Boron (B)
0.009%
Chlorine (Cl)
1.15%
Cobalt (Co)
0.0004%
Copper (Cu)
0.0001%
Iron (Fe)
0.32%
Manganese (Mn)
0.0118%
Molybdenum (Mo)
0.0009%
Sodium (Na)
0.13%
Zinc (Zn)
0.0007%

Total Nitrogen (N) seachem nitrogen

1.5%
Soluble Potash (K2O)
2%
 
J

jgsensor

Member
Just a quick update, I haven't posted in a bit since work became very busy and had a few other pressing issue around the house the took precedence. I have been doing 50gal water changes every 4 days, still dosing the florish here and there. At one point the nirates got up to 25ppm so I backed off a bit and watched it a bit more closely. Still haven't gotten the time to set the sump up for adding the algea and probably won't until next week. Still the nirates go up and down, but haven't seen much change in the PO4. Slight dips here and there, but not much change over all. Who knows how much is bound up in the tank. So i will continue with the wter changes, hopefully get to the fuge next week and give it some more time. Nothing happens overnight in this hobby.
 
Boomer

Boomer

Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
It is not the water /say but the bound up P in the rocks. WC is the only way or GFO. WC need to be huge to get anywhere, like 50 -75 % WC. A 10 % will not get you much of anywhere. You are at about 15 % . So, that means GFO. I would do the 15 % and use GFO. IMHO I would stop Flourish. It is more like Russian Roulette and you may end up with a massive Algae growth or Bacterial growth. Then what ?? Looks to me that the N is just going to denitrification and that uses little P, unless one is adding a organic fuel to fuel the P removal bacteria.



Sas

That is the wrong Flourish you posted. He is using Flourish Nitrate. There are 4 Flourish, i.e., Flourish, Flourish Nitrate, Flourish Phosphorus and Flourish Potassium. That data sheet is for Flourish.


Flourish Nitrate = Total Nitrogen (N)1.5% and Soluble Potash (K2O) 2%
 
J

jgsensor

Member
I have stopped using the florish since my nitrates are up to 20ppm and I haven't seen a drop in them lately. I was doing 50g water changes every 3 days and have upped that to 100g. Cleaned out the sump, removed the sand in the fuge and rinsed the rubble rock. Going to clean out the over flows next and add some cheato to the fuge. I am aleady running biopellets and am going to order another reactor to run GFO. Have also cut back on feedings and will be adding to the cleanup crew this weekend.

I haven't had any algea blooms, but there are 7 tangs and a rabbit fish in the tank so it doesn't stand much of a chance to establish
 
Jackalope

Jackalope

Member
wow im suprised no algae bloom. how much/times you feed a day. nitrates jacked Way up.

Edit: also do you every blow off your rockscape and any stirring of the SB? im wandering if your rock is chalked full of P, leaching out, and your P is increasing in numbers faster than it can be removed.
im by Far no expert but from a long winded thread from a Geoff over in TrT, i learned quite a few things... of course he was tought from boomer himself. i still learned quite a bit about it and how it happens, just broken down to my terminology lol.
 
J

jgsensor

Member
I feed once a day, but I will be the first to admit I over feed. I have cut back the amount, but possibly need to cut more. Never had problems with algea in the tank what so ever, just a hard time keeping corals. I know the rock and sand has trapped phosphates since I removed a couple pieces, rinsed them and placed them in new salt water with 0 phos and within an hour the water was sky high with phos. Didn't test for nitrates, but should have. I don't stir the sand bed much, Zi'm a little nervous about distrubing it. The tank sb is roughly a 3" sb.

I do have a ton of small feather dusters in my sumpvand overflows and I get a large build up of their dead/abandon casing that is probably adding to the problem. I did vacuum the sump during the last wc and will do the overflows this Sat. Without getting rid of these guy entirely, it will be a on going occurance.

Believe me I have thought several times about removing everything and starting fresh, but for now. I am trying to avoid that.
 
sasquatch

sasquatch

Brunt of all Jokes~
PREMIUM
Boomer said:
Sas

That is the wrong Flourish you posted. He is using Flourish Nitrate. There are 4 Flourish, i.e., Flourish, Flourish Nitrate, Flourish Phosphorus and Flourish Potassium. That data sheet is for Flourish.


Flourish Nitrate = Total Nitrogen (N)1.5% and Soluble Potash (K2O) 2%
Click to expand...

I just supply irrelevant information to get you posting lol ( caught me again haha)
 
Jackalope

Jackalope

Member
LoL Sas!

Hey Jg, when you do a WC, instead of just dumping the water out, use a vacuum on the SB. 3" is pretty dang deep imo to not be stirred ever. im willinbg to bet its Chalked full of phosphates just as your rock. it seems you can load P up in your water and the LR and SB will absorb. Until there capacity has been reached, they leach it out. im just Boggled why you have no algae. the only thing stopping it from growing i would guess is the spectrum/intensity of lighting does not allow it to grow. this Indeed is an interesting thread. im all over it!

Yeah another Edit: Now the only thing i have never found out is. once LR has hit max P storage, is it possible to reverse the effect over time w/o a tear-down?
 
Boomer

Boomer

Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
Sas

I just supply irrelevant information to get you posting lol

I figured you were up to some kind of sneaky thing :D
 
J

jgsensor

Member
Steve - I use Salifert test kits exept currently my nitrate kit is an Elos.

Jackalope - I'm not quite sure I follow you on the vacuum of the sand bed. Won't that just suck up the sand? I do have the vacuum I hook to a sink to clean out the overflows and sump, but i figure if I used it on the SB it would just take the sand with it. Also I have always heard it was not a good thing to disturb that SB for releasing gases into the tank. I agree that 3" is a bit much and wouldn't mind removing a good portion. As it is now with wave action and critter movement, I have spots that are 1/2" to probably 5". I use to have a few gobies to help clean it, but the last one died a month ago and I haven't replaced him yet. I am hoping to get to the LFS this weekend and build up the cleanup crew quite a bit.

As for the algae, I really don't have and answer for you. Like I said I have seven tangs and a rabbit fish that are great grazers. There are also 4 urchins and untold number of snails in the tank. The water parameters are all good except the nitrates and phosphate with the calcium a bit high also(even though I haven't dosed ca for over a year). It is a 375g tank(96x30x30) running 2 400w MH and 1 250w MH (all 14k) and 8 T5 36" actinic off Ice Cap ballasts. Never had any algae problems except a few small cyrno outbreaks here and there. Mainly having problems keeping the corals growing, except for torch, duncans, povona and blastos.
 
Jackalope

Jackalope

Member
ahhhh. ok your CuC destroys the algae before it becomes a nuisance lol. now i understand where/why its not around. yeah... light not an issue there. im getting a feel on your tank now. im betting overfeeding over a long duration, SB and LR chalked with po4, due to 7 tangs and other pooping critters. sounds like your bioload exceeds filtration (natural/mechanical), therefore the end result of excess po4. its cought up and now 2 things mmust be done... of course get the numbers back on par, but correct the bioload or filtration. your rock and SB can no longer do anything being plum full of phosphates. basically this has come from an inbalance.
i hope someone chimes in and corrects me if im wrong. but ive read up on this for ever and seems to be the same case scenario most the time.

vacuuming the sandbed takes painstaking work. the issues is: too much flowing = sucking sand right through to the bucket. or not enough flowing = nothing happens. i pinch off the hose to control flow on my vacuum. its a pita untill i figure some type of valving system. if you are looking to remove any of your SB that would be the time to open the floodgates so-to-speak while vacuuming. just catch it in bucket, remove water, repeat till bucket is full or you removed what you wanted to. ive gone through this personally removing sand in this manner and seems by far the easiest way.

just shorten the amount of feeding/food, vacuum SB, WC, repeat until you got your numbers down.

blowing off your liverock helps too but i wouldnt start knocking a Ton of po4 in your water column all at once as po4 moreless Round-up for corals. this is why you are having problems with keeping them.

ok i just dumped my whole brain on ya and going to take a break before i get an anurism lol

TC and GL, i'll stick around for the show. hopefully mr smarty-pants ... /cough boomer .... chimes in and tells me im either right or wrong.
 
steved13

steved13

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
OK, on Salifert, I haven't used it, but I think it gives pretty good breakdown of the level? Some kits only show very wide results IE 0, .25, .50 etc which are almost worthless IMO. I like the Hanna checker, which gives you a number, it makes it easier to see if the level is dropping , or rising, in small increments.
 
steved13

steved13

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
As much as I advocate the Bio pellets...I'd throw a reactor with GFO on the system. You might want to cut feeding way back, to practically 0. Don't forget, phosphate is one of the basic building blocks of life, it's in almost everything you put in the tank.

I would stop feeding for a few days, check the phosphate level, then do a large water change and check the phosphate level again (You should see a drop), add nothing to the tank, and check the phosphate level again a day after the WC. That would give you a good idea of how fast it is leeching. Almost everything in nature looks for a balance, ice melts, fire spreads, opposites attract...so if it's trapped in the rock and the level in the water is lower it will come out of the rock and into the water to balance. Once they are balanced, there is no further transfer. As Boomer said, you need to keep doing the WC to drop the level in the water.

I agree with vacuuming the substrate. You can carefully vacuum it and siphon out the bad stuff without releasing it into the tank. You will remove some of the sand but it sounds like that wouldn't be so bad anyway. With the larger WC that your doing, it's the perfect time to do it and get it clean again. Almost everything releases phosphate as it decays, getting that stuff out of the system has to be better.
 
J

jgsensor

Member
Ok, it was my anniversary today so no tank work, the wife got the attention instead. I will give the sand bed vacuum trick a try this weekend once I get my water made up so
I can do another 100g wc. I think I am ok on mech filtration, but could always use more natural help in the clean up crew department. I have been running a Hurricone 2 external skimmer, two reactors for biopellets and carbon and will add a third this week hopefully for GFO. Planning on going to the LFS tomorrow to increase the clean uo crew numbers.
 
J

jgsensor

Member
Sorry I had some issues come up this weekend I had to deal with. I will be hitting the tank today after work. Stopping on the way home to pickup some more cuc and then hitting the tank. I think I may remove the excess sand in stages and not all at once.
 
J

jgsensor

Member
Ok, picked up some more snails, a couple conch, diamond goby and some crabs to add to the clean up crew. Should have some algae to add to the sump this weekend. Also ordered another reactor to run some rowaphos ( already running 1 biopellet & 1 renew). I only got 50g of water changed today, the other 50 I forgot out in my garage last night and it was roasting here today so that one was too warm to go into the tank. Also took out 2g of sand. I am going to do another 50g( maybe 100g if its ready) tomorrow, remove some more sand and clean the overflows. After that I will retest either late tomorrow or maybe Thurs after the tank settles back down.
 
sasquatch

sasquatch

Brunt of all Jokes~
PREMIUM
are you pulling all of the sand or just most? there are some good articles on DSB's in a bucket if you feel the need for a dsb
 
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