LED Balance
- Thread starter noon6
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Pat24601
Well-Known Member
Right now, I have mine at 55% intensity for both whites and blues. However, I think I'm learning I like a blue look. So, I may go higher on blue. I am also still debating how high to take my intensity overall. I think most people do in the 70 - 75 range, but my tank is doing well at 55, so I'm not sure how much higher I will go.
BTW, I have the 14k super full spectrum. So, it's naturally a bit bluer than 12k.
Pat24601
Well-Known Member
It can. In other threads, people sometimes vary their blues and whites quite a bit (call that up to a 10% difference that I recall). As far as I know, that doesn't hurt the corals, so I think it's OK to experiment and see what you like.
Let's see what opinions others offer.
Anyone else have a perspective they would like to share on this topic? I have heard that many LED owners turn down the blues when taking photos but how about the rest of the time?
As far as the corals are concerned what types like more white vs blue and vice versa?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As far as the corals are concerned what types like more white vs blue and vice versa?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
blazend
Member
From my experience i like to run white - 40-50% and blues 50-60%. My lights are not hanging and directly above the water line so i never go above 70%.
Here is my thought on corals. Hammer and leather corals dont mind either or. But my Gonperia (flower pot and torch coral) like the white light to be more intense so they come out more then. Also my anemones seem to come out and show them selves when the whites are above 30%
Here is my thought on corals. Hammer and leather corals dont mind either or. But my Gonperia (flower pot and torch coral) like the white light to be more intense so they come out more then. Also my anemones seem to come out and show them selves when the whites are above 30%
dacianb
Active Member
I always like the whites (4500k high CRI) at 50-60 % comparing with other channels. I keep UV, DeepBlue and normal blue+cyan at high values comparing with white.
The camera sensors are very saturated by UV and 450nm blue LEDs, this is why people turn them off.
here is a picture I take at night with my UVs at 1% - with bare eye, just see some fluorescence in the tank - with the camera - pink tank
The camera sensors are very saturated by UV and 450nm blue LEDs, this is why people turn them off.
here is a picture I take at night with my UVs at 1% - with bare eye, just see some fluorescence in the tank - with the camera - pink tank
1325903997
Member
I have the 14K full spectrum with timer and remote and currently have my intensity at 20% white and 60% blue
dacianb
Active Member
Corals need the 400-460nm range (violet-deep blue). Set this on correct intensity (until you see corals happy growing) and then tune the whites until it is pleasant for your eyes. Dont forget that white LEDs have also a ton of 450nm in them. So if see them unhappy, lower a bit the levels.
StevesLEDs
RS Sponsor
You are correct, it has a lot to do with personal preference. The reason you have an aquarium in the first place is for your own enjoyment. With that in heavy consideration, be aware that for corals and inverts to thrive, they do need blue light for proper photosynthesis. I recommend you keep the blues as high as your eyeballs are comfortable with, and chances are, that is enough for most corals.
After a couple weeks, just look at your coral polyp size and see if you need to reassess the light settings. Here's my personal procedure when putting new lights over an aquarium:
1) If the polyps are completely white/bleached = too much intensity, not necessarily a bad color setting, just turn both colors down evenly, and give the corals more time to acclimate.
2) If the polyps are small and dense and don't seem to want to fully extend = too much intensity, not necessarily a bad color setting, just turn both colors down evenly, and give the corals more time to acclimate. (same as above)
3) If the polyps are huge (balloon like), relatively clear and washed out color = Not enough light intensity, and likely not enough blue spectrum.
4) If polyps are out, but deflated = this is a water quality issue, not a lighting issue. Perform a thorough water test and at the very least, regardless of the test results, perform a water change.
5) If the polyps are just right, not too big, not too small and look pretty = Sounds like you have the intensity right, and you can slowly (over the course of several days) make small adjustments at a time to better suit your own preference. I never recommend simply turning down your blues and leaving it as is. Instead, turn down your blues AND turn up your whites - or vice versa. This will allow you to maintain your current light intensity while modifying the color. The Steve's LEDs systems use full spectrum white LEDs, so regardless of how blue/white the aquarium looks, they are very likely getting the right wavelengths of light.
6) Coral polyps seem happy, but not growing = increase the photo period during the day (leave lights on longer, ex, 13 hours instead of 10 hours)
Based on my procedure above, you can see that proper intensity plays a larger role than exact color. Think of coral polyps as little solar collectors. If they are trying to get away from the light, they will try to shrink to be tiny and avoid the light (so help them out and turn down the intensity of both colors). If they are big and balloon like, they are trying to collect more light (need to turn up the intensity of both colors).
After a couple weeks, just look at your coral polyp size and see if you need to reassess the light settings. Here's my personal procedure when putting new lights over an aquarium:
1) If the polyps are completely white/bleached = too much intensity, not necessarily a bad color setting, just turn both colors down evenly, and give the corals more time to acclimate.
2) If the polyps are small and dense and don't seem to want to fully extend = too much intensity, not necessarily a bad color setting, just turn both colors down evenly, and give the corals more time to acclimate. (same as above)
3) If the polyps are huge (balloon like), relatively clear and washed out color = Not enough light intensity, and likely not enough blue spectrum.
4) If polyps are out, but deflated = this is a water quality issue, not a lighting issue. Perform a thorough water test and at the very least, regardless of the test results, perform a water change.
5) If the polyps are just right, not too big, not too small and look pretty = Sounds like you have the intensity right, and you can slowly (over the course of several days) make small adjustments at a time to better suit your own preference. I never recommend simply turning down your blues and leaving it as is. Instead, turn down your blues AND turn up your whites - or vice versa. This will allow you to maintain your current light intensity while modifying the color. The Steve's LEDs systems use full spectrum white LEDs, so regardless of how blue/white the aquarium looks, they are very likely getting the right wavelengths of light.
6) Coral polyps seem happy, but not growing = increase the photo period during the day (leave lights on longer, ex, 13 hours instead of 10 hours)
Based on my procedure above, you can see that proper intensity plays a larger role than exact color. Think of coral polyps as little solar collectors. If they are trying to get away from the light, they will try to shrink to be tiny and avoid the light (so help them out and turn down the intensity of both colors). If they are big and balloon like, they are trying to collect more light (need to turn up the intensity of both colors).
Mdk16
Member
Jeff, this post has some great tips and makes a lot of sense.
Does Steve's have any plans to release PAR values for your various systems to serve as a benchmark? I've read your thoughts on collecting PAR Values and adding the appropriate percentages for a more accurate read but thought it would be worthwhile to have some general guidelines. With PAR meters becoming more available with systems like the APEX, perhaps Steve's can collect some values from users as a jumping off point as it seems as if users are all over the map regarding intensity.
Does Steve's have any plans to release PAR values for your various systems to serve as a benchmark? I've read your thoughts on collecting PAR Values and adding the appropriate percentages for a more accurate read but thought it would be worthwhile to have some general guidelines. With PAR meters becoming more available with systems like the APEX, perhaps Steve's can collect some values from users as a jumping off point as it seems as if users are all over the map regarding intensity.
StevesLEDs
RS Sponsor
Yes, we are working on getting a new photospectrometer (radiospectrometer) and getting valid readings to our customers, especially since most PAR meters on the market are so inaccurate.
What I can tell you is that if you email us with a specific size aquarium, and we recommend a specific LED system for that aquarium, we are the only company that guarantees that you will be able to grow every species of photosynthetic coral, anemone and clam in the aquarium trade. That means that our lights are outputting an ample amount of PAR, and our light systems output so much part, that they are rarely run at 100% intensity levels.
We have a long list of items that we plan on purchasing for our manufacturing facility, and a photospectrometer is high up on the list.
Thanks!
Jeff
What I can tell you is that if you email us with a specific size aquarium, and we recommend a specific LED system for that aquarium, we are the only company that guarantees that you will be able to grow every species of photosynthetic coral, anemone and clam in the aquarium trade. That means that our lights are outputting an ample amount of PAR, and our light systems output so much part, that they are rarely run at 100% intensity levels.
We have a long list of items that we plan on purchasing for our manufacturing facility, and a photospectrometer is high up on the list.
Thanks!
Jeff
StevesLEDs
RS Sponsor
Just got word that that new radiospectrometer will be getting here relatively soon, hopefully within a couple of weeks, speculatively! Good coincidence!
Jeff
Jeff
Mdk16
Member
That's great news Jeff. I have no doubt that Steve's offers a high quality led. Due to many of the retrofit canopies your LEDs are being mounted in your systems typically sit closer to the water than most others that I've seen at LFS and online. It will be great to see what you find with the spectrophotometry.
dacianb
Active Member
Jeff, spectrometer will tell you relative power of different wavelengths at the measurement distance and only rays perpendicular on the sensor (a bit wider angles if will use a diffuser on spectrometer).
From those data, how can you extract the requirements for a specific tank?
I am asking this because I have full access to high tech optical labs where I can measure my LEDs on but have no idea yet if lights I DIY are OK or not
. Here is a print screen of such a measurement i made on a cold white LEDs cluster. Of course this graph comes together with a large table containing tons of data, including PAR, CRI, etcBut still I cannot "connect" it with corals requirements
StevesLEDs
RS Sponsor
Dacianb,
Correct, you will need a diffuser (called a cosine correcter) for the sensor to gather cumulative outputted wavelength from an LED system with more than 1 LED in it.
PAR is a function of distance from LEDs to corals, so with the sensor placed that set distance from the LEDs, you will get an proper PAR reading (anywhere from 105-400 PAR is adequate for corals). Different corals can require and tolerate different amounts of PAR, with SPS requiring some of the highest.
CRI is a measurement of how close the LEDs light wavelengths (thus color) mimic the sun - not really applicable since most quality LED manufacturers boost the blues out of proportion, which is great for growing healthy coral.
Regarding total LED characterization absolute irradiance output which is displayed in that "rainbow" graph - to correlate that to corals, this requires a series of trial and error testing and reporting of dozens of different LED combinations and concentrations to hundreds of species of corals. Granted many corals have similar photosynthetic peak absorption requirements, and that eliminates the need to test all corals. Finding popular trends that grows corals is key. Simply getting a graph and studying it with no reference, like you said, just won't be very usable without the background data.
Since setting up dozens of different LED fixtures while testing hundreds of different species of corals is not cheap, this information is usually proprietary and not made public since competing manufactures would be able to use this data without undergoing this initial significant expense. Perhaps if there was some way to make this information both public, and healthy for our company, we would consider it.
Making any sense yet?
Thanks,
Jeff
Correct, you will need a diffuser (called a cosine correcter) for the sensor to gather cumulative outputted wavelength from an LED system with more than 1 LED in it.
PAR is a function of distance from LEDs to corals, so with the sensor placed that set distance from the LEDs, you will get an proper PAR reading (anywhere from 105-400 PAR is adequate for corals). Different corals can require and tolerate different amounts of PAR, with SPS requiring some of the highest.
CRI is a measurement of how close the LEDs light wavelengths (thus color) mimic the sun - not really applicable since most quality LED manufacturers boost the blues out of proportion, which is great for growing healthy coral.
Regarding total LED characterization absolute irradiance output which is displayed in that "rainbow" graph - to correlate that to corals, this requires a series of trial and error testing and reporting of dozens of different LED combinations and concentrations to hundreds of species of corals. Granted many corals have similar photosynthetic peak absorption requirements, and that eliminates the need to test all corals. Finding popular trends that grows corals is key. Simply getting a graph and studying it with no reference, like you said, just won't be very usable without the background data.
Since setting up dozens of different LED fixtures while testing hundreds of different species of corals is not cheap, this information is usually proprietary and not made public since competing manufactures would be able to use this data without undergoing this initial significant expense. Perhaps if there was some way to make this information both public, and healthy for our company, we would consider it.
Making any sense yet?
Thanks,
Jeff
dacianb
Active Member
Thanks Jeff, makes a lot of sense and fully agree with your "silence" regarding sensitive subjects.
I am not really convinced that this PAR parameter actually works - PAR is the radiometric power of the 400-700 nm range transformed in another unit, without any correlation with actual chlorophyll absorption. I can make a light with 800 PAR at 500-600 nm (green LEDs), but I really have doubts that this will work on a tank.
Probably I will measure the PAR values in 400-500 nm range only and consider this as an effective output (minus >10% loses through water). Of course there are other LEDs involved for us to see the tank (whites), but still believe that 400-500nm is essential for corals.
StevesLEDs
RS Sponsor
You pretty much hit the nail on the head with regards to one of the biggest issues in lighting today. Manufacturers will select certain LED colors that are less expensive and put them in their fixtures, which has a good ability to boost PAR numbers, however those colors are not within any of the photosynthetic peak ranges. The manufacturers have traditionally been misleading for good cause - when a person is shopping for light, they only have numbers to compare with other manufacturers. Most people don't want to do the research, they just have heard that "high PAR = good" and leave it at that. Higher PAR values in the specifications leads to better sales, etc.
Steve, the owner of the company I work for, is a very experienced and successful aquarist, and has almost two decades of devotion to improving this hobby. He is a good guy, and never met a stranger if you know what I mean. He cares more about putting out a product that works and encouraging other people to enjoy the hobby, rather than spend his life trying to make as much money as possible before he dies (perhaps he his not very "American" in not partaking in this this "get rich quick as you can" traditional sense, but he is patriotic!). Knowing that, the LED systems that he engineers have LEDs that have been heavily scrutinized before being selected and the fixtures are scientifically proven to grow corals at exceptional rates, typically exceeding growth rates found in the ocean by several fold. This is because we provide more of the essential wavelengths, and reduce the wavelengths that are not absorbed by chlorophyll. Oddly, our systems, when compared side by side with other "comparable" LED systems, namely Kessil, Radion, etc, our LED systems are significantly brighter, and simply grow coral better. This is due to the higher quality LEDs being used, and be better engineered design to allow the LEDs to run cooler.
Here's a tid bit of info for you folks looking to learn a little more about how LEDs work in a marine lighting fixture:
-An LED that consumes 3W will output significantly more light when running at 25°C than one running at 85°C, yet they will consume the same amount of electricity and last much longer. This is why it is important to have a well engineered LED system that runs as cool as possible.
-A no-name brand LED from china will consume 3W of power and produces less than half of the lumens than a quality Luxeon ES LED that is using that same 3W of power.
-LEDs of the same brand are categorized by their manufacturer, this way when a manufacturer orders say, 10,000 LEDs at a time, that manufacturer can be sure to receive LEDs of the same brightness - this is called binning, and any quality LED will have a BIN code associated with it.
For example, with the Luxeon ES Royal Blue LED, Part # LXML-PR02. You can purchase this exact LED with different BIN codes (brightnesses). One BIN code can be 500mw of light output (that's about 30 lumens), and another BIN code could be 1200mw (that's about 72 lumens). The lowest output LEDs are what you typically see on Ebay, if you look up Luxeon ES Royal Blue that cost ~$1.25/ea. You think you are getting an amazing LED for the price at first glance, but in fact, you are getting a bottom-of-the-barrel LED. If you order from a company that posts BIN codes, you know what you will be getting. If you purchase a Luxeon ES Royal Blue LED off of StevesLEDs.com, then you know exactly what you are getting for $2.50/ea.
Ebay - 500mw for 1.25/ea = $0.0025 per mw.
StevesLEDS.com - 1200mw for $2.50 = $0.0208 per mw. That is a difference of 17% cheaper cost per lumen by going with the brighter LED. Furthermore, you will need fewer drivers and power supplies to run these fewer, brighter LEDs, and use much less electricity as well.
So basically going with a higher quality LED, you get 240% more light for only 200% more cost - which is a better value.
I'm only telling you this because so many LED brands are deceptive nowadays - and nobody regulates the imports from china, so they could say that their "168W" LED fixture is 168W, when in fact, it is outputting less than half the light intensity as a quality brand's light that consumes only 84W.
Steve's LEDs has a goal to express REAL numbers, and as always, let the success of LED fixture be known for it's ability to actually grow corals and other inverts, not just what the specifications say it can do. Take a look around on the forums, I don't think we have ever had a report that our LED systems would not grow a specific species of coral, clam or anemone, and that is from more than 8,000 LED systems sold. Because of this, that makes our company the only company to guarantee that our LED fixtures are guaranteed to grow all species of photosynthetic corals* (so long as the water quality parameters are within "normal" ranges).
We will be posting the ACTUAL (that means anybody can put one in their aquarium and repeat these results, no "ideal" or "laboratory" conditions required) results regarding light output, wavelengths, intensity and PAR values for all of our fixtures, and I challenge all other manufacturers to do the same.
I love this stuff!
Jeff
Steve, the owner of the company I work for, is a very experienced and successful aquarist, and has almost two decades of devotion to improving this hobby. He is a good guy, and never met a stranger if you know what I mean. He cares more about putting out a product that works and encouraging other people to enjoy the hobby, rather than spend his life trying to make as much money as possible before he dies (perhaps he his not very "American" in not partaking in this this "get rich quick as you can" traditional sense, but he is patriotic!). Knowing that, the LED systems that he engineers have LEDs that have been heavily scrutinized before being selected and the fixtures are scientifically proven to grow corals at exceptional rates, typically exceeding growth rates found in the ocean by several fold. This is because we provide more of the essential wavelengths, and reduce the wavelengths that are not absorbed by chlorophyll. Oddly, our systems, when compared side by side with other "comparable" LED systems, namely Kessil, Radion, etc, our LED systems are significantly brighter, and simply grow coral better. This is due to the higher quality LEDs being used, and be better engineered design to allow the LEDs to run cooler.
Here's a tid bit of info for you folks looking to learn a little more about how LEDs work in a marine lighting fixture:
-An LED that consumes 3W will output significantly more light when running at 25°C than one running at 85°C, yet they will consume the same amount of electricity and last much longer. This is why it is important to have a well engineered LED system that runs as cool as possible.
-A no-name brand LED from china will consume 3W of power and produces less than half of the lumens than a quality Luxeon ES LED that is using that same 3W of power.
-LEDs of the same brand are categorized by their manufacturer, this way when a manufacturer orders say, 10,000 LEDs at a time, that manufacturer can be sure to receive LEDs of the same brightness - this is called binning, and any quality LED will have a BIN code associated with it.
For example, with the Luxeon ES Royal Blue LED, Part # LXML-PR02. You can purchase this exact LED with different BIN codes (brightnesses). One BIN code can be 500mw of light output (that's about 30 lumens), and another BIN code could be 1200mw (that's about 72 lumens). The lowest output LEDs are what you typically see on Ebay, if you look up Luxeon ES Royal Blue that cost ~$1.25/ea. You think you are getting an amazing LED for the price at first glance, but in fact, you are getting a bottom-of-the-barrel LED. If you order from a company that posts BIN codes, you know what you will be getting. If you purchase a Luxeon ES Royal Blue LED off of StevesLEDs.com, then you know exactly what you are getting for $2.50/ea.
Ebay - 500mw for 1.25/ea = $0.0025 per mw.
StevesLEDS.com - 1200mw for $2.50 = $0.0208 per mw. That is a difference of 17% cheaper cost per lumen by going with the brighter LED. Furthermore, you will need fewer drivers and power supplies to run these fewer, brighter LEDs, and use much less electricity as well.
So basically going with a higher quality LED, you get 240% more light for only 200% more cost - which is a better value.
I'm only telling you this because so many LED brands are deceptive nowadays - and nobody regulates the imports from china, so they could say that their "168W" LED fixture is 168W, when in fact, it is outputting less than half the light intensity as a quality brand's light that consumes only 84W.
Steve's LEDs has a goal to express REAL numbers, and as always, let the success of LED fixture be known for it's ability to actually grow corals and other inverts, not just what the specifications say it can do. Take a look around on the forums, I don't think we have ever had a report that our LED systems would not grow a specific species of coral, clam or anemone, and that is from more than 8,000 LED systems sold. Because of this, that makes our company the only company to guarantee that our LED fixtures are guaranteed to grow all species of photosynthetic corals* (so long as the water quality parameters are within "normal" ranges).
We will be posting the ACTUAL (that means anybody can put one in their aquarium and repeat these results, no "ideal" or "laboratory" conditions required) results regarding light output, wavelengths, intensity and PAR values for all of our fixtures, and I challenge all other manufacturers to do the same.
I love this stuff!
Jeff
Cheers Jeff - I always enjoy your post