Joe's New RSM S400

[joecas]

So, After saying the remaining fish all looked fine just yesterday, I came home today and they are all covered in white spots. The kole tang, banner angel, spotted sweetlips look the worst. The bellus angel for some reason looks ok, as does the wrasse, the clowns and the rest.

My daughter was over and asked an interesting question: If the water in the HT is the same as the DT, and you can't treat the fish because you cannot catch them and the medicine will kill the corals, why not put all the corals in the HT and treat the fish in the display tank? The question certainly seems logical! I could probably put all the corals, with some live rock, in the HT in about 15 mins.
Any comments?

 

[joecas]

I feel your pain Joe, just lost two angels and a kole tang in my hospital tank. Took me a month of trying to catch all the fish from the DT before I got them all and it was too late for those 3. I now have a sickly looking yellow tang who is barely eating and I've only just started the copper treatment. I have been wondering the same - if the fish were not better off in the DT with the Ich. At least there they didn't die... Between a rock and hard place....

Dave, I'm really sorry about your kole and angels.... losing fish (and coral) is the hardest part of the hobby. I'm glad your yellow tang is hanging in there. I'm rooting for him! towards the end, the only thing my yellow tang would eat was mysis shrimp with garlic powder sprinkled on it. i fed it directly with a turkey baster. Good luck!

 

[Oxylebius]

Medication can seep into rocks, sand, silicon and other items. Usually you would want to reserve a hospital tank for any medications and then not use that hospital tank for anything else but medicating fish. Depending on the meds used, you can also kill off all your good bacteria. If copper is used you can ruin any tank for future use of inverts, copper can seep out of all kinds of things for years. I always recommend setting up a quarantine tank to medicate sick fish in almost every circumstance. Of course, setting up a separate aquarium may not be feasible for everyone. There are 'reef-safe' items that are available, but they aren't always the best or fastest to cure issues. And I don't recommend curing ich this way.

 

[newo11]

So, After saying the remaining fish all looked fine just yesterday, I came home today and they are all covered in white spots. The kole tang, banner angel, spotted sweetlips look the worst. The bellus angel for some reason looks ok, as does the wrasse, the clowns and the rest.

My daughter was over and asked an interesting question: If the water in the HT is the same as the DT, and you can't treat the fish because you cannot catch them and the medicine will kill the corals, why not put all the corals in the HT and treat the fish in the display tank? The question certainly seems logical! I could probably put all the corals, with some live rock, in the HT in about 15 mins.
Any comments?

You can't ever get the copper out of the display tank. Doing this will effectively make it so that your S400 will have to be a fish only tank forever and you will never be able to keep a reef tank in it again.

It is worth the time and effort to try and setup the hospital tank. You should try not to ever cross contaminate between the hospital tank and the display tank if you are using a copper based medication to treat.

@Oxylebius - any recommendations or other help you can give him?

 

[newo11]

Never mind. @Oxylebius has you covered and posted at the same time as me! Her advice is always spot on!

 

[Oxylebius]

Thanks newo11 for the compliments, but I'm not always right. Sometimes it's opinion.

joecas, ich is one of the worst parasites to deal with. No one likes to deal with it, but once you have it in your tank this parasite forces you to deal with it b/c it will keep coming back and infecting fish unless it is properly eradicated.

There is some really good info in this thread: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts including treatment options.

 

[joecas]

can someone please confirm gobies and blennies cannot be treated with copper and should stay in the DT. correct?
also, can a sea urchin get ich? mine seems very unhappy for the past few days.

 

[Marty.h]

You can't leave any fish in a DT is has to remain with no fish in.

 

[joecas]

You can't leave any fish in a DT is has to remain with no fish in.

So do i need a third tank for the scaleless fish?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/
"Copper has several disadvantages in treating Ich. First, at too low a dosage, it is ineffective. Secondly, at too high a dosage, it could kill all your fish. Daily, or better yet twice daily, testing is required to maintain an appropriate and consistent level of copper. Even when within the appropriate ranges, some fish cannot tolerate copper. Some of the fish more sensitive to copper are lionfish, pufferfish, mandarins, blennies, and any other scaleless fish. Copper is also a known immunosuppressive, making fish more susceptible to secondary infections. Invertebrates are extremely sensitive to copper and cannot be housed in a tank undergoing this treatment. "

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

Ich such a bummer and a fallow (fishless) tank for 8 weeks is so long...

I have never had to deal with it... but if I did, I think I would try the proven
Bounce/Transfer Method and have it whipped in only two weeks.... as the stress of QT for 8 weeks seems like a lot too... and stress is a key role in fish death...

an extract from Lee Birch below...
Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts
an extracted post from Boomer ^

Multiple smaller hospital tanks is one option

Yes and with one method I learned from something I read long ago in the 70's, from Amlacher's book I call the "Bounce Method'. "Ick" can not survive without a host, so multi-tanks work. You just move the infected fish from one untreated tank to the next every 2-3 days. At the end of two-weeks there can not be any ick. And at times the ick is all gone in the first couple of days, meaning only one move or maybe only 2 moves i.e., less than a wk.

 

[joecas]

OK. I was trying to wait for good news before I posted again, but I figure maybe all my bad news might be useful for people dealing with Ich for the first time. Here is what is going on:

I was treating my tank with Ich Attack and Dr. G's Anti-Parasitic Caviar. Things seemed to be going well. The death toll stopped (or at least slowed) and for a few weeks the tank was doing ok. I will list the series of events, I don't know if any of it matters.

- Unfortunately, Supplies were running low and I could not find them locally anywhere so I ordered online. I paid extra for it to be overnighted, but it still took several days to arrive. So the tank went without medication for 3 days.
- The tank crashed. All the fish became covered in ich.
- I've been maintaining the hospital tank as an insurance policy. Made sure salinity and temperature were consistent with display tank. PH was perfect.
- I decided to forget about salvaging the aqua scape and just piled the live rock to try to eliminate caves.
- I caught most, but not all fish and put them in the hospital tank. later that night I added Cupramine (26 drops in 15 gallons),
- The fish were definitely not happy in the HT. Most just went into PVC pipes and didn't move. Over the next few days, it was like a death camp. Every day a new one died.
- The only survivors of the HT are one clown and the diamond goby. Oddly, the ones left in the display tank are still alive.

So, now, with the skimmer off for 2+ weeks, maybe 3 and charcoal removed, The tank is covered in cyano and all the corals are dying. Its is a complete disaster!

I put the skimmer back on last night and added Chemi-Pure Elite. I just received fresh supply of Nutri-Sea Water. Will clean the cyano off sand, rock and coral. Change water, and try to maintain whatever is left living... basically 1 clown, the spotted sweetlips, goby and blenny, fairy wrasse and a bellus angel (i'm not too optimistic about the angel), a few leather coral, and others. I lost a beautiful torch coral and an equally beautiful bushy acropora, and some others.

I don't know the moral of the story, besides once you get ich... you and your fish (and potentially some coral) are pretty much doomed so preventative measures should be taken at any cost.

That's enough for now.

Joe

 

[Oxylebius]

Thanks for posting. All information is helpful to post. Sorry this has happened. Ich is really a horrible parasite to deal with. There really isn't any easy way to get rid of it, believe me, if there was then everyone would be using the easy way out.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

Thanks for sharing Joe and sorry to hear you have lost more of your beautiful fish

 

[DaveR11]

So sorry to hear your news Joe. The hospital tank story sounds very similar to mine - the stress of moving, beginning the treatment and a much less interesting/natural environment tipped the fish over the edge. Best of luck with recovering from this set back.

Dave

 

[joecas]

Can anyone tell me what this is? It's grown to this size in about 3 weeks. And it seems to be moving, it was to the left of the drain, now it's above it. I want to scrape it off, but maybe it's good? Any ideas?

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

looks like cyanobacteria

 

[DaveR11]

+1 to the Cyano. I had the same but mostly on the sand. I kept the nitrates low, got some Cerith snails and they and my red-legged hermits did the rest.

 

[ziggy]

looks like cyanobacteria

I am a firm believer cyano will grow if nitrate amounts are low. There is no problem in keeping nitrates measurable, and they should be kept to ~ 5. Measurable nitrates are the food for the beneficial bacteria colonies associated with LR and sand. minimizing nitrates, and trying hard to reduce them will reduce the bacteria colony sizes proportionately and who knows what havoc low bacteria amounts will initiate...

Just my never to be humble opinion...

 

[joecas]

So, after letting the tank be fishless reef for 12 weeks, I restocked it a bit. All was good for nearly 2 weeks, and now the ich is back! Damn!


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[Pat24601]