Pro_builder
Well-Known Member
oh boy this is a deep subject. I will tag along to get all the info I can.
Thanks for posting
Thanks for posting
Jaubert Plenum
- Thread starter mojoreef
- Start date
mojoreef
Just a reefer
Hey Cos. Your idea on how to clean the plenum zone, caught my attention the first time you came up with it, It has some merit for sure, so lets move in that direction for a moment.
lets look at exactly what is in the plenum zone water. Thier should be particulate dust from the zone above (covered in baceria) thier should be some solids of detritus also. But I believe the majority of the water will be saturated with Nitrates, sulfides, and phosphates. Elements will also be thier such as calcium, but I would assume with that much phosphate present it would be in the form of calcium phosphate. Removing the particulate matter is a for sure, but I think it could be a mistake leaving this water in place. Whatcha think???
MIke
lets look at exactly what is in the plenum zone water. Thier should be particulate dust from the zone above (covered in baceria) thier should be some solids of detritus also. But I believe the majority of the water will be saturated with Nitrates, sulfides, and phosphates. Elements will also be thier such as calcium, but I would assume with that much phosphate present it would be in the form of calcium phosphate. Removing the particulate matter is a for sure, but I think it could be a mistake leaving this water in place. Whatcha think???
MIke
RogueCorps
Member
To go to an extreme, how about building a plenum system with a funnelled base and a couple of valves at the bottom so that solids would collect in a base container. The valves could be closed and container removed and only the volume of the container of aerobic environment would flow through the plenum, which might only be a small jar or something. A small closed loop in the plenum additionally could resist settling away from the container.
Or maybe a closed loop with an external removable canister? Then add to this a CO2 bottle and you've got yourself a super-reactor.
-Rogue
Or maybe a closed loop with an external removable canister? Then add to this a CO2 bottle and you've got yourself a super-reactor.
-Rogue
mojoreef
Just a reefer
Nikki I send Charles a email to see if he has some info. He did a 4 year study on the jaubert plenum, so hopefully he has something.
RC interesting, Cos was talking about using a circ pump with a filter to exchange the water to. With the concept of using co2, that may agood source of replacement water for the plenum at worst case
Keep em coming
Mike
RC interesting, Cos was talking about using a circ pump with a filter to exchange the water to. With the concept of using co2, that may agood source of replacement water for the plenum at worst case
Keep em coming
Mike
mojoreef
Just a reefer
Well Charlie emailed me back and to be honest I was a little surprised. He said he had done very detailed testing on it, he could not give the details of the numbers because he was doing an article for the AAOM, but was kind of enough to give me a summery.
The plenum (as a whole) had large fluxes of N, P, Si. From elevated levels to high levels. Nitrate was about the same as natural seawater. Ammonia was always much higher than natural seawater. The
biggest thing I saw was that this closed system tended to accumulate
organic nitrogen and had higher than normal levels (2-3X).
Aloha!
J. Charles Delbeek
Aquarium Biologist
Waikiki Aquarium
2777 Kalakaua Ave.
Honolulu, HI, USA 96815
www.waquarium.org
The plenum (as a whole) had large fluxes of N, P, Si. From elevated levels to high levels. Nitrate was about the same as natural seawater. Ammonia was always much higher than natural seawater. The
biggest thing I saw was that this closed system tended to accumulate
organic nitrogen and had higher than normal levels (2-3X).
Aloha!
J. Charles Delbeek
Aquarium Biologist
Waikiki Aquarium
2777 Kalakaua Ave.
Honolulu, HI, USA 96815
www.waquarium.org
Flatlander
Member
Whats this, inside info on the long awaited study.
mojoreef
Just a reefer
Nikki the systems are still going the same way they are now. I have heard alot of arguements by the outside the hobby biologists on if the DSB or plenum systems even processed nitrogen based products.. Looking at the results of this and the other testing I am really begining to lean towards thier line of thinking.
Is the nitrogen based waste being processed and off gassed, or is it being processed down to ammonium and then perking back up again and recycling all over again???? this would make sence about the phosphates leaching up to...Hmmm.
Mike
Is the nitrogen based waste being processed and off gassed, or is it being processed down to ammonium and then perking back up again and recycling all over again???? this would make sence about the phosphates leaching up to...Hmmm.
Mike
ScottT1980
Well-Known Member
Oh man, those are some big time results that could really shape the face of the hobby. I can't wait to see the article. I still like the idea of the plenum with a "drain" and am anxious to hear if anyone is even thinking about giving it a try. My concerns fall along the same lines as Cos but by being remote, these problems can be offset a bit. Great thread, keep it going...
Take er easy
Scott T.
Take er easy
Scott T.
mojoreef
Just a reefer
I have no idea when he is going to put out the article, he says when he gets some time, lol so who knows.
On the plenum and or our modified system, man I am kinda been set back a few steps here now. I always new thier was some ammonia being circed back but man if we are not getting off gassing at all, I dont know. I got some info from albert theil and he is along the same thinking, that the gas we see is simply co2 not nitrogen gas and that nitrogen based products are just being cycled like everything else in the bed. I have a call into a friend that runs the NOAA and i am going to pick his brain on the phone. One way or another I want to figure this out.
Mike
On the plenum and or our modified system, man I am kinda been set back a few steps here now. I always new thier was some ammonia being circed back but man if we are not getting off gassing at all, I dont know. I got some info from albert theil and he is along the same thinking, that the gas we see is simply co2 not nitrogen gas and that nitrogen based products are just being cycled like everything else in the bed. I have a call into a friend that runs the NOAA and i am going to pick his brain on the phone. One way or another I want to figure this out.
Mike
ScottT1980
Well-Known Member
Nikki, when you say "recylce event," are you reffering to the loss of bacterial flora in the plenum space? If so, I don't think there is any way to avoid this loss. Nevertheless, I would think that most of the bacteria would not be suspended in the water column but be incoorporated within biofilms on substrate. Because the plenum space has no substrate (i.e. it is only water), then the loss of bacteria would not be too great (although perhaps noticable).
So, while I am concerned about bacteria loss, the more I think about it, the more I begin to wonder if this loss is negligable. So with the drain, perhaps you are getting rid of the bad while keeping most of the good. Another question, do the sulfur compunds and other contaminants in the plenum (via aneorobic processess) precipitate or do they remained suspended in the water? If they precipitate, then bacteria obviously would grow on these "clumps of gunk" and therefore, bacterial loss would be significant if these were drained with the water (which is the idea afterall, taking the bad out) although much would still remain.
Just thinking out loud, don't mind me...
Take er easy
Scott T.
So, while I am concerned about bacteria loss, the more I think about it, the more I begin to wonder if this loss is negligable. So with the drain, perhaps you are getting rid of the bad while keeping most of the good. Another question, do the sulfur compunds and other contaminants in the plenum (via aneorobic processess) precipitate or do they remained suspended in the water? If they precipitate, then bacteria obviously would grow on these "clumps of gunk" and therefore, bacterial loss would be significant if these were drained with the water (which is the idea afterall, taking the bad out) although much would still remain.
Just thinking out loud, don't mind me...
Take er easy
Scott T.
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Maxx
Well-Known Member
Nikki,
that makes sense to me. I agree w/ you. Admittedly we don't have any of the studies info, so all of this is pure supposition/assumption on our part here, but it would seem to be beneficial to remove from water (and undesirables) from the plenum area. The tough part is as you said, how often?
It takes on average 6 weeks to cycle a new (sterile) aquarium w/ damsels. Keep in mind this is the complete nitrogen/ammonia cycle in a dead (no bacteria at all) environment. And the length of time is due to the bacteria population needing to reach levels that can deal w/ the ammonia/nitrite/nitrates. So I would assume that after the plenum was established, (funtioning bacterial population) that it would take less time than that depending on the systems bioload. Maybe 4 weeks? maybe less? I dunno...Mike you read the study...sort of...what do you think?
Nick
that makes sense to me. I agree w/ you. Admittedly we don't have any of the studies info, so all of this is pure supposition/assumption on our part here, but it would seem to be beneficial to remove from water (and undesirables) from the plenum area. The tough part is as you said, how often?
It takes on average 6 weeks to cycle a new (sterile) aquarium w/ damsels. Keep in mind this is the complete nitrogen/ammonia cycle in a dead (no bacteria at all) environment. And the length of time is due to the bacteria population needing to reach levels that can deal w/ the ammonia/nitrite/nitrates. So I would assume that after the plenum was established, (funtioning bacterial population) that it would take less time than that depending on the systems bioload. Maybe 4 weeks? maybe less? I dunno...Mike you read the study...sort of...what do you think?
Nick
Scooterman
Active Member
Think this could be set up on a 10g Nano. If so maybe we could get actual results without having to experiment on a full blown reef. It still will require time though but may well pay off!