Ich and Cleaners Shrimp

[Clown-lover]

My hippo tang has ich, so I got a cleaner shrimp. Anyway, it's starting to look better. I assumed that the cleaner shrimp ate it. My questions are:

1. For a 12 gallon could I have 2 cleaner shrimp? Would that be safe? (I know that a 12 gallon is too small for a tang, and I don't need to be flame or told. The hippo is the size of a nickle. I am planning on upgrading to a 90gal in a couple weeks)

2. when the ich fall off does the shrimp eat thems? So it doesn't spreads?

3.Also off the topic, how long do you have to wait before getting an anemone?

 

[BigAl07]

The general thoughts are about 1 year after the tank has become stable in every resepct.

Not sure about the ICH but make SURE it's well before adding anything else.

Allen

 

[DaveK]

While cleaner shrimp are nice, I don't feel hey should be depended on for treatment of parasites.

If you don't have a quarantine tank, set up one and treat your tank there with hyposalinity or copper. You may also need to treat all your other fish.

Also, never ever medicate a reef system. no matter what the LFS store tells you or what is printed on the bottle or box, in my opinion, there are no reef safe medications.

 

[kimm]

IMO get rid of the hippo tang. They are Ich magnets!

 

[Woodstock]

I do not think that the cleaner shrimp will eat the ICH that has fallen off the fish. Any ICH that has fallen off the fish will multiply and hatch in several days. The development is temp dependent with warmer water speeding up their cycle.

 

[Melanie]

If you don't have a quarantine tank, set up one and treat your tank there with hyposalinity or copper. You may also need to treat all your other fish.

Please please listen to this advice! It saved my livestock from a tank crash.

 

[prow]

My hippo tang has ich, so I got a cleaner shrimp. Anyway, it's starting to look better. I assumed that the cleaner shrimp ate it. My questions are:

1. For a 12 gallon could I have 2 cleaner shrimp? Would that be safe? (I know that a 12 gallon is too small for a tang, and I don't need to be flame or told. The hippo is the size of a nickle. I am planning on upgrading to a 90gal in a couple weeks)

:wit: that tank is too small for that tang sorry i had to do it. the shrimp may fight. most likely it will ok but... possibilities do exist.

2. when the ich fall off does the shrimp eat thems? So it doesn't spreads?

sure they do. they will eat all they can get. but what they will not get is more than enough to continue ich's life cycle.

3.Also off the topic, how long do you have to wait before getting an anemone?

depends. should be, like already said, a mature tank. the time for a tank to mature varies. if you have uncured rock it could be a while. but if your water parameters are stable over a month or so without big fluctuations in anything, should be good to go. just reseach whatever one you want, some are easy to care for others not.

 

[sasquatch]

IMO get rid of the hippo tang. They are Ich magnets!

Kimm! allow me to disavow you this urban myth lol. An ich magnet is an impossibility. If the hippo is Ich free and the tank is ich free where do the ich come from, if the tank has ich then you might say that this fish is more inclined towards infestation but Ich does not spontaneously appear. Steve

 

[charlesr1958]

1. For a 12 gallon could I have 2 cleaner shrimp? Would that be safe? (I know that a 12 gallon is too small for a tang, and I don't need to be flame or told. The hippo is the size of a nickle. I am planning on upgrading to a 90gal in a couple weeks)

2. when the ich fall off does the shrimp eat thems? So it doesn't spreads?

3.Also off the topic, how long do you have to wait before getting an anemone?

First, I have seen nothing that indicates shrimp or anything for that matter, removes/eats the protozoan (ich), although I have seen one paper published showing that cleaner wrasse stomach contents (fun job) were never found to contain ich. I would not count on shrimp being able to pick off this particular parasite either, the protozoan is just far too deep in the fishes skin to be easily picked off without having the shrimp perform minor surgery on the fish. (the white spots you see are not the parasite but simply a skin reaction to being bored into) In reality, I believe just the vast difference of what happens with the ich parasite in the wild and in an enclosed tiny space (our tanks) dictates all the trouble we have with it.

What is more likely happening, is that your fish is / has developed a partial immunity to the parasite and "appears" to be cured, I would be willing to bet though, that if the tank conditions ever cause the fish to become stressed, you would see the Ich return as if by magic as the fish loses its resistence. A great many so called "reef safe" ich cures take advantage of that fact and then have their product take credit for it, yet refuse to take the blame when the parasite makes a reappearance as it most always does. IMO.

Six months is good time period to wait for an anemone, by then a tank is usualy stable enough to avoid any wild swings in water parameters.

Marine Ich

Chuck

 

[prow]

First, I have seen nothing that indicates shrimp or anything for that matter, removes/eats the protozoan (ich),
Chuck

hummm, there is alot of info on this. thats what they eat, parasites, ich included. may not be the mainstay in there diet but they do eat them.

 

[lcstorc]

depends. should be, like already said, a mature tank. the time for a tank to mature varies. if you have uncured rock it could be a while. but if your water parameters are stable over a month or so without big fluctuations in anything, should be good to go. just reseach whatever one you want, some are easy to care for others not.[/quote]


I have to seriously disagree with this statement. Amenones require a very very stable environment. The accepted rule of thumb is one year or more of STABLE water parameters. They have very slow metaboism and may seem to be just fine when in fact thay are slowly dying. At an absolute minimum I would wait 6 months and that would have to be for one of the less sensitive animals like a bta.

 

[prow]

so what do you disagree with?

 

[charlesr1958]

hummm, there is alot of info on this. thats what they eat, parasites, ich included. may not be the mainstay in there diet but they do eat them.

Could you please direct me (provide a link?) to such info? Being that not all parasites are created equal, it would take a stomach content analysis for me to believe that cleaner shrimp are capable of removing an imbedded protozoa.

For the sake of arguement though, lets say that they can. Having seen cleaner shrimp in action, just by their sloppy (ineffective) "cleaning", They would be far from being a cure at all. I say that for two reasons, firstly, such parasites almost always invade the gills of the fish first, there is just no way that any cleaner is going to get them, or all of them out of that area. Secondly, cleaners, while of help, they are not very effective at doing their job. There will always be any number of parasites left after a cleaning session, and with it only taking one Ich to make it into its reproduction stage to produce hundreds more, in an enclosed system, any such cleaning services would be overwhelmed constantly.

I just don't see a shrimp or wrasse being able to open a fishes skin and still have time to remove such a parasite before the fish freaks out and dashes off from being snipped into. In fact, I have seen many times where a cleaner has gotten carried away and hurt the fish only to have the fish turn on the cleaner and chase it away.

I need to sit down today and put together an explanation of what actualy goes on with the ich parasite out on the natural reefs as well as within our aquariums. Being a slow sunday, will give me something to do for awhile...lol

Chuck

 

[Clown-lover]

First, I have seen nothing that indicates shrimp or anything for that matter, removes/eats the protozoan (ich), although I have seen one paper published showing that cleaner wrasse stomach contents (fun job) were never found to contain ich. I would not count on shrimp being able to pick off this particular parasite either, the protozoan is just far too deep in the fishes skin to be easily picked off without having the shrimp perform minor surgery on the fish. (the white spots you see are not the parasite but simply a skin reaction to being bored into) In reality, I believe just the vast difference of what happens with the ich parasite in the wild and in an enclosed tiny space (our tanks) dictates all the trouble we have with it.

What is more likely happening, is that your fish is / has developed a partial immunity to the parasite and "appears" to be cured, I would be willing to bet though, that if the tank conditions ever cause the fish to become stressed, you would see the Ich return as if by magic as the fish loses its resistence. A great many so called "reef safe" ich cures take advantage of that fact and then have their product take credit for it, yet refuse to take the blame when the parasite makes a reappearance as it most always does. IMO.

Six months is good time period to wait for an anemone, by then a tank is usualy stable enough to avoid any wild swings in water parameters.

Marine Ich

Chuck

So you're saying that the fish cures itself? Builds up a ich protection over time?

 

[charlesr1958]

I would not call it a cure, but a resistence, such fish that do so, can easily lose that resistence when stressed by either another disease, high temps, poor water quality and so on. Once lost, the fish is quickly infested again, at least to the point where the skin reactions (white spots) are visible to us again, which to me, implies that even a resistant fish still acts as a carrier of sorts, if the fish did not carry around a few parasites at all times, then it would be impossible for the fish to become reinfested since the parasites would die off completely if unable to feed upon a fish.
I just slapped this together as an inclussion into my ich page:

On the Reefs and in our Aquariums - Having spent a number of years in the Philippines now and having access to any number of wild caught fish, there has always been a single question concerning the Ich parasite that I have had to ask myself. In doing so, and by putting those thoughts down here, I hope to provide a bit of insight into the hows and whys of what I believe to be going on with this parasite, or at least why it is so troubling for the majority of the hobby and not me.

Why do I never get this parasite in my system ? By all rights, and going by the conventional wisdom of this subject, my aquarium and its fish should be dead by now with massive infestations of this parasite. I never quarantine any fish that I catch ever. I catch them, take them home, and plop!, into the aquarium they go. But having learned a great deal more about the life cycle of this parasite, as well as what I observe of the reefs here, it quickly becomes apparent to me that it all boils down to simply being a matter of area, space and water volume. In order to not have to detail it again, the following will assume that you understand this parasites life cycle.
On the ocean reefs - Taking into consideration the vastness of the reefs and the water volumes and oceanic currents as well as the living habits of most fish species that make such environments their home, it is to me, a miracle that any tiny organism drifting about within such vastness is ever able to come into contact with a fish that it requires to remain alive. Think about it, a Tomont laying on any number of surfaces hatches out a few hundred free swimming Theronts. Those theronts are then swept up into the fast flowing water currents. They then have to run the gauntlet of being eaten themselves by either other plankton dwelling predators or by the reef animals themselves, such as corals. Those that do survive, then have to beat the odds that they will by chance, bump into a fish and are able to attach themselves to the fish, while only having 24 to 48 hours to do so or starve to death, all before they are swept out away from fish bearing reefs and into the vastness, and emptiness (of fish), relatively speaking compared to the reefs of the open ocean. The odds are very stacked against such an occurance from happening, yet it must happen from time to time as the species would go extinct if not so. Given such odds though, how many theronts do you suppose would by change find the same fish? To me, its highly unlikely that more than one or possibly two could ever at one time be on a single fish. Once on such a fish, the parasite only remains for a week or so feeding on the fish and then drops off of the fish to head for a surface on which to go into its own reproductive mode. The fish probably never knew it had this parasite on it, and then, what are the odds of that same fish running into yet another free swimming theront yet again? Highly unlikely to me. And is what probably best explains the fact that I never see this parasite. Even having gone to a fish exporter, with hundreds upon hundreds of fish to look at, I could not find a single sign of this parasite being present.
In an Aquarium - Talk about parasite heaven! For those that require a fish as part of their life cycle. So now a single parasite that had the fortune of being caught along with the fish, even though the odds are against it, but with hundreds of thousands of fish caught each year, all it takes is one single parasite to drop off of the fish while in transit through the various wholesalers holding and retailers tanks, and every other fish that passes through those tanks is going to be pounced upon by the hundreds of free swimming theronts that have been blessed to find themselves in a little glass box of water holding a good number of fish that are always no more than a few inches away. The odds are now so much in favor of the parasite being able to bump into a fish that it is impossible for me to think that such an occurance is not going to happen. When you have hundreds of parasites, if not more, hatching out in such a confined space, life is so easy for the parasite that they can infest a fish so greatly as to cause the death of the fish. Something that I think is near an impossibility of happening in the wild.
Its up to you - Seeing as how there is an entire small industry based upon the "curing" of just this single parasite species, and is the subject of a great many articles, forum posts and studies, that have continued since the birth of this hobby, I would not entrust that a wholesaler or retailer is going to ever do something about it and take away the need for this hobby to learn this parasites lfe cycle and how to prevent an infested fish from contaminating all other fish. Obviously there is still a great deal of ignorance about this parasite as I continue to have to try and be of help as well as listen to a great number of outlandish explanations (myths) on why this parasite is still a huge problem as well as the equaly ignorant "methods" used to get rid of it. For some good examples of such things, please see My Myths Page, if you now understand this parasite, you should at least get a good laugh.

Chuck

 

[prow]

well i am not going to break out the microscope and look inside a shrimps stomach. but if you believe nothing eats ich, i disagree.

 

[charlesr1958]

I did not say that nothing eats protozoan parasites, I have just never seen where it has ever been proven that cleaner shrimp do so, and without that proof, I can not assume that they do. To do so, would lead one to assume that cleaner shrimp are of use against this particular parasite, a gamble or guess that could result in the death of the fish and/or a continued problem with it within the tank.
You stated that there was plenty of proof that cleaner shrimp do indeed eat this parasite, again, could you point me in the direction of that proof? Thanks.

Chuck

 

[Boomer]

Nice post Chucky

"They" do remove parasites to a degree. However, that degree or efficiency is about equal to doing a water change of 1 cup / day in a 100 gal tank.



H. Becker1 and A. S. Grutter1(1) Department of Zoology and Entomology, University of Queensland, St Lucia, QLD 4074, Australia

Received: 26 May 2003 Accepted: 27 July 2004 Published online: 5 November 2004

Communicated by Ecological Editor P.F. Sale

Abstract

Apart from cleaner fish, there are many reports on cleaning by shrimps, yet whether shrimps actually clean, i.e. eat parasites in the wild, has not been demonstrated. For the first time, we show that, conclusively, cleaner shrimp in the wild do clean. We found crustacean ectoparasites from the Family Gnathiidae and the Class Copepoda in the gut contents of wild cleaner shrimp, Urocaridella sp. and Periclimenes holthuisi. In addition, they ate parasitic monogenean flatworms, Benedenia sp., offered to them in the laboratory. Finally, P. holthuisi, significantly reduced monogenean, Benedenia sp., loads by 74.5% on captive surgeonfish Ctenochaetus striatus within 48 h. Such large reductions in parasite loads are likely to benefit individual fish. These results emphasise the need for more information on the ecological role of cleaner shrimp on coral reefs.


Becker, J.H. & Grutter, A.S. 2004 Cleaner shrimp do clean. Coral Reefs 23, 515–520.

Becker, J.H.A., Curtis, L.M. & Grutter, A.S. 2005 Cleaner shrimp use a rocking dance to advertise cleaning service to clients. Curr. Biol. 15, 760–764, (doi:10.1016/j.cub.2005.02.067). [CrossRef]

Bunkley-Williams, L. & Williams, E. 1998 Isopods associated with fishes: a synopsis and corrections. J. Parasitol. 84, 893–896.

Bush, A.O., Fernandez, J.C., Esch, G. & Seed, J.R. 2001 Parasitism: the diversity and ecology of animal parasites. 1st edn. Cambridge University Press.

Combes, C. 1996 Parasites, biodiversity and ecosystem stability. Biodivers. Conserv. 5, 953–962, (doi:10.1007/BF00054413). [CrossRef]

Feder, H.M. 1966 Cleaning symbiosis in the marine environment. Symbiosis (ed. Henry, S.M.), vol. 1. pp. 327–380, New York: Academic Press

Grutter, A.S. 1996 Parasite removal rates by the cleaner wrasse Labroides dimidiatus. Mar. Ecol. Prog. Ser. 130, 61–70.

Grutter, A.S. 1999 Cleaner fish really do clean. Nature 398, 672–673, (doi:10.1038/19443). [CrossRef]

Grutter, A.S. 2002 Cleaning symbiosis from the parasites perspective. Parasitology 124, (Suppl. S), S65–S81, (doi:10.1017/S0031182002001488). [CrossRef]

Grutter, A.S., Murphy, J. & Choat, H. 2003 Cleaner fish drives local fish diversity on coral reefs. Curr. Biol. 13, 64–67, (doi:10.1016/S0960-9822(02)01393-3). [CrossRef]

Nicolette, P. 1990 Symbiosis: nature in partnership. London: Blandford.

Sikkel, P.C., Fuller, C.A. & Hunte, W. 2000 Habitat/sex differences in time at cleaning stations and ectoparasite loads in Caribbean reef fish. Mar. Ecol. Prog. Ser. 193, 191–199.

 

[charlesr1958]

Thanks boomer, that paper pretty much demonstrates what I have always suspected, that cleaners, if given the time, can reduce parasites, but not eliminate them completely. I also noted that the species of parasites listed are another indication that such cleaners are probably only somewhat effective on parasite species that are more easily removed, flatworms being a good example, copepods another, parasites that can actualy be "grasped". For the Ich parasite, being that it is fully encased under the fishes skin, I just can't see how a fish would sit still long enough to allow anything to cut its skin open or even allow such a thing to occur.
When it comes to the ich parasite, and untill proven otherwise, I believe that it, and other protozoan parasites (brooklynella) are kept in check by simply having to beat the odds in vast volumes of water (the ocean) than by a cleaner fish/shrimp being able to cut into the skin of fish and pluck out a microscopic organism while having an infected fish allow such a thing to actualy happen.
Thanks for all of the references!

Chuck

 

[prow]

i dont think it will be proven in the way you want for some time to come, if ever. i have seen a mouse eat peanut butter. i dont think there has been any research done on mice and there stomach contents to prove it though. my angel fish eats garlic, my tang eats romaine lettuce but i can not prove it. either way, whether it helps or not, i think we can agree that no cleaner is a "cure" for it.