Hyposalinity Treatment of C. irritans in Display Tank

[svejil]

Interesting set-up. I have read much about the ATS for limiting unwanted algae blooms, and cyano. It seems to be working well for you here. Most hyposalinity treatments require A LOT of water changes! You don't seem to have needed much, and trust that your test kits are accurate.

Lee (aka leebca) moved your original post to its own thread, you will find it under the Fish Disease category, and I believe was tagged "Fast Drop in Salinity". Since that was the main topic of your original thread, it moved / given its moved its own post. You will see Lee's comments regarding such.

Lee will likely chime in on this post, but maybe I can save him some time.

Here are Lee's data on your questions regarding Fallowing of your main DT.

"I found that 6 weeks would give you the odds of about 99% success. That is, 1 in a 100 would still have a living Marine Ich parasite in the fishless tank.

At about 8 weeks, the odds are above 99.9% or less than 1 in a 1000 that there would be any living parasite in the fishless tank.

As far as research has found, the odds are about 100% or very close to that number, that there would be no living parasite in the fishless tank, when the tank is fishless for no less than 12 weeks.

I have heard of tanks still having parasites at or below 6 weeks, but so far have not heard of anyone having identified and confirmed living parasites in fishless tanks at 8 weeks, though there is a very small chance.

The assumptions with all this 'data' is that the tank remains active -- normal tropical temperatures, being fed, biological filter running, lighting as usual, etc."

You can see the odds of success above, and pick which category you wish to fall in. As for raising your salinity in your Hospital Tank, it appears from Lee's write up, that 4 weeks after the last visible spot is seen is the absolute minimum. Some opt for an additional week or even two (6 weeks). If you were to follow his advice, the bare minimum would be as follows:

• 4 weeks at hypo after last visible spot on ALL fishes
• 6-8 days to slowly raise salinity back up (please don't raise as fast as you lowered)
• 4 additional weeks in hospital tank to verify no spots re-appear once at normal salinity level (I suspect you do this in the QT so that if ich re-appears, you are already in the QT to re-start treatment, and don't re-infect your main DT, and add the stress a second time of having to catch your fish again.

Anyway, I think this answers your questions. You can find the above recommendations on the Sticky - titled: "A Hyposalinity Process".

If you have any questions, or any of the above is unclear, please re-post, and I am sure Lee could help, or I will do my best.

Regards,

Steven

 

[docjames]

Thanks Steven for your input. Much appreciated. This Marine Ich had gave me headaches for months.

Thanx again.

James

 

[svejil]

One more comment regarding your current set-up.

The main DT and hosipital tank are in VERY close promixity to each other. I would be very cautious of cross contamination from one to the other.

Be very careful using buckets, siphons, etc. that could cross contaminate. All it takes is one parasite. Be interesting to see if Lee agrees with my perceived inherent danger of having these two side by side, I may be wrong.

Steven

 

[docjames]

Svejil, thanks for your concern. I'm a Orthopedic surgeon. I'm very aware of cross contamination. I separate everything that goes into either the DT or QT. Thanks for mentioning though!

James

 

[leebca]

This very long thread becomes less useful as it lengthens. Finding specific info is not easy. Your questions were 'different' docjames and whenever possible, I suggest starting your own thread with your questions.

I couldn't have replied any better than svejil has. I too would have a concern about cross contamination with the QT being so close to the DT system. Splash, bubble-droplets are smaller than the eye can detect without special lighting -- sort of like a sneeze droplet. That's enough to put the parasite in about a 3 foot area surrounding the DT system, assuming the air is still. Windy or fans running can spread the droplets further out.

:hallo:

 

[docjames]

Thanks for both of your input. I'm quite limited by space in the living room and therefore do not have much of a choice to separate the tanks further apart. I will keep a closer observation on both tanks and see if what's mentioned is possible. Since the DT do have 10 cm glass plates surrounding the upper inner tank and the water has no obsruction to cause a splash. Unless the parasite can get airborn, I don't see a way the water can get into the quarrantine tank. Nevertheless, I'll take a closer look. If neccessary, I'll put up some sort of obstruction in between the tanks. This QT's making the living room uglier than ever anyway, but I do want to settle this marine ich once and for all. BTW, I'm new to this forum so sorry for not starting a new thread. I stumped straight into this thread through googling, that's why I had the post in this thread.

James

 

[blennielove]

Greetings DocJames!
You're in Taiwan?!? How neat, that is where I'm from originally and ended up in Ohio!
Your DT looks beautiful and congrats on your fishes doing well now.

Just to share my earlier experience. I had ALL my fishes in a hospital tank for 8 weeks with my DT fallow, returned the fishes and C. irritans were back in 2 weeks. Since it sounds like your system is working, you MIGHT want to consider going the more conservative route.

Best wishes!

Oh, almost forgot to update everyone on my tank.
It is actually really boring...but I am glad to say, "All is Well!"
Specific gravity at 10 ppt, pH steady at 8.05 with minimal bicarb replacement, 40 gallon H2O change every 10 days now. Fishes are happy with not a single spot anywhere. I'm still planning on raising salinity February 6th!

 

[docjames]

Blennielove, do you think it's a particular strain of marine ich that survive that long? I'm starting a thread on quarrantine tank using ATS since I felt there are many advantages from all the quarrantine procedures I've read. Now, from what you're saying, it is scary and I'm very weary that by going through all this trouble might end up still having ich in my tank. When I first started the tank, it nearly wipe out all my fishes and from what you see in my picture, that's the fishes I was able to salvage. They were all covered in "white spots" when I put them in the quarrantine tank except for the wrasse, but they have been spot free for the past 6 weeks. This is confusing that leads me to think either the fallow tank can harvest ich longer than we think or the quarrantine tank at SG 1.008 can not kill the ich. I've decided to leave the DT for a full 3 months and go from there. Let's keep in touch. I live in Taichung.

 

[blennielove]

Hello DocJames!
I've read about hyposalinity "not working" to end C. irritans infestations but almost all the time, the reason it failed, I believe, is due to a or some factor/s of the aquarist - contamination, not stable salinity, a 'fish" left in DT etc. Many times when I read about people taking their fishes OUT of DT, then leaving the DT fallow for 8 weeks does it, if done with diligence and care.

In my particular case, I've had crypt since November of last year, the system was treated with multiple methods - After you read this you may never want to hear another thing from me but I've learned much about patience and methodes over the past year...

1. Removal of all fish and placed in quarantine, treated with quinine phosphate for two weeks, waited 6 more weeks then re-introduced to DT. Failed - I believe from cross contamination.
2. Formalin "continuous bath" at 35 mL every 2 days on a 220 system - Failed due to my own anxiety and overlooked the fact that I've left the protein skimmer on...
3. Quinine phosphate IN DT, treated for 3 weeks, with ALL spots gone. I've talked with many people who said that it was time to get the QP out, so I did. Failed due to the reality and fact of the life cycle of Crypt - you see, I didn't really understand it at that time. QP does not work to kill crypt in ALL stages, the crypt in my tank was very well established by then and as the tomonts errupted little new theronts...the cycle continues.
4. Tried Quinine sulfate, three weeks same thing, was really anxious about taking the medicine OUT but again, I spoke with the pharmacist and the cycle repeats.
5. Formalin again at the urging of my LFS buddy. It cleared things up but appeared that I had to run it almost continuously...I didn't want to do that as both the fishes, myself, hubby, and pups were all getting pickled alive by the fumes.
6. Hypo in DT as I've written in the beginning of this thread...and now.

I think in my particular case, my SYSTEM is what is severely infested with crypt. This is why, the way I'm counting time is actually for the "last" trophont that came off the fish, to encyst into a tomont and 72 days from that, believe me, I know that little bugger will excyst and try to infest my fish. In a systemic infection like my, I know that I'm not talking about excystment in the double or triple digits, I'm thinking thousands if not tens of thousands that are excysting.

Prior to me lowering the salinity to 10 ppt or specific gravity of 1.008/1.007, I used to notice 2-3 spots on my Powder Blue every 3 weeks or so, almost exactly every 28 days! That was at specific gravity of 1.010 where reinfestation was still accuring (even at a very small rate). At first I couldn't understand but now, I hope I'm understanding better and more clearly.

From my guess, as long as you have not seen a SINGLE spot on your fishes while in the hospital tank running at salinity of 10 for six weeks, you most likely do not have crypt in your hospital tank by now as crypt does not "hide" in the fish itself, it must go through it's life cycle. You can SLOWLY raise your specific gravity over a week and watch them for another four weeks to make sure that there is no re-infestation in your hospital tank. By that time, you DT would be fallow for more than 11 weeks and we all know that crypt cannot continue it's life cycle without fish host...I think you would be safe, but then again, YOUR infestation happened in April which can mean that your SYSTEM is heavily infested... Just remember, the longest documented excystment occured at 72 days. You and I are both people of science and medicine, we know that as scientists and physicians, we know, but there are much more information that we really "don't" know. So, for me, I take that 72 days as a guide but also with a huge grain of salt and that is why I'm going longer. My thoughts are, why not? The fishes are eating well, behaviorally happy and normal, no secondary infections or any observable side effects...

On a personal note.. How wonderful you are in Taichung! I was born in Taipei and our nuclear family moved to the States, but then all the family I have left are in Taichung and so we do visit there every year.

I'll definitely be following with you on your quarantine thread!

Best wishes!

 

[docjames]

blennielove, gees, you don't know how happy I am reading your post. I mean exept for the tanks being so close to eachother, I've been using tools gone through aseptic treatment to use on both tanks.

On the side note, if you're ever in Taichung, give me a call. Let's go out for a drink and have a chat and perhaps by then both of us are ich free. my phone number is 0937206986.

James

 

[blennielove]

Happy Holidays to ReefSanctuary!
Well, I'm still hanging in there! Actually, my darling fishes are still hanging in there. Still not a single spot to be seen and behaviors are excellent. My pair of clowns have been trying to nest and make babies, I try to tell them to wait but you know how clowns are! I've got really nice green algae growing on my rocks the the back wall of the tank. Belive it or not, my skimmer is actually still doing SOME skimming, I've got 2 inches in ONE MONTH - wooohooo! Doing water changes every 10 days or so now, the pH is holding well with very minimum replacement of bicarb - probably 1/2 teaspoon every other day. As I noted before, the pH improves as the water ages. Checked my nitrate the other day, it's at 20 ppm.

Hope everyone is doing well!

 

[blennielove]

DocJames,
I'll be in Taichung November of 2011! I'll make sure I give you a ring!
Hope your treatment is going well!

 

[sandwi54]

Hi blennielove, I am in the process of doing the same treatment in my 72x24x30 tank as well. since it's been 8 months since you were at 1.008, did you return the salinity back to the normal level and not see any ich anymore?

Would appreciate an update and hopefully a good one!