Hyposalinity Treatment of C. irritans in Display Tank

[blennielove]

Greetings,
I am nearing the end of hyposalinity treatment for marine ich in my 210 display tank. All fishes did well with the treatment, no ich spots seen on fish for three weeks and as I wait and watch... I came up with this question. Since the fishes are in the DT, should I extend the waiting time longer?
The last time I saw THREE small spots on the Powder Blue Tang was three weeks ago, before that, ther were maybe ONE or TWO spots seven weeks ago. Each spot comes and goes in 24 hours. I've read all of leebca's threads on marine ich and so I know that in a quarantine/hospital tank I can start raising the salinity back up after four weeks of no spots (slowly) but since I'm in my DT, should I do anything different?
Thank you for your opionion!

 

[DaveK]

This is a case where your better off holding off, provided that the fish are not suffering from the hyposalinity. You have a powder blue tang, which is a notorious "ich magnet". You sure don't want to be wrong here, since you'd have to start the whole process over again.

 

[blennielove]

Thanks Dave!
I was having that funny feeling in the bottom of my stomach when I was thinking about it. My "original" plan was a total of 8 weeks from the last spot before raising the salinity. I think I will stick to it. I've had ich in this tank since 11/09 (with the same PBT) and I've learned much about having "patience".

 

[blennielove]

Any other thoughts or opionions?
I was hoping that leebca would give some thoughts here...please?

 

[leebca]

The same guidelines and timing should be fine. With a DT or marine system treatment, there are sometimes many errors made of cross contamination -- pockets of protected salinity.

The slow disappearance of spots is of another concern -- a concern nonetheless.

What specific gravity are you holding it at? How are you controlling pH? and are you using a refractometer for salt water for control?

lsmile:

 

[blennielove]

Hi Lee!
It took me a whole week to decrease it from 1.012 to 1.010 because I was worried that I was going to drop it too fast near the end. It was interesting to note that it took them around ten days to finally see no spots after I decreased and held the specific gravity at 1.010 - there were so so many spots.
The spots noted three plus weeks ago were only on the Powder Blue tang and no one else, and they were very small and "tight" compared to previous crypt spots.
I'm glad to read about "pockets of protected salinity" because I thought something like this might exist but that's another story...
The current specific gravity is at 1.010 - 1.009 (I have an ATO that helps make this easy).
The pH is controlled with your recommended baking powder at 350 degrees for thirty minutes. I was "loading" the ATO water with it but noticed, like you said, it is not stable and does not keep long. So I mix a batch of this every couple of days and add it to the tank two times a day to keep it AROUND 8.04 - 8.14. I've noticed that it is more difficult to make it stay above 8.15.
I am using a refractometer to check the specific gravity.
I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you, Lee, for all the effort you put forward to educate people regarding our hobby. I've tried to treat this crypt with quinine sulfate, formalin, chloroquine phosphate and failed so many times and lost fish due to the treatments (not the crypt!). Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with hyposalinity, convincing me that it is safe and effective. My fishes thank you!
So I guess my plans may be to start raising the salinity back up very slowly in another 10 days - as long as no other spots are seen. Watch for another four weeks AFTER the specific gravity is back to 1.025 and then hopefully, my fishes are free of this horrible infection. If this timing is correct, I can say that my fishes and I have been fighting a horrible battle with Cryptocaryon irritans for a WHOLE YEAR and both they and I lived through it!
Thanks again!

 

[leebca]

You're welcome. I'm glad to hear of the progress. I'd finish the last few days at a specific gravity of 1.008 sp. gr. units.

Sounds like you have everything under control. Good luck!

 

[blennielove]

Thank you, Lee!
I will decrease the specific gravity to 1.008 sp.gr. units for the next 10 days!
Keep my fingers crossed!

 

[blennielove]

Greetings everyone at RS!
Ahhhhh!
It's been four days since increasing the salinity and the tank is at 25 PPt and I THINK I see THREE spots on my Powder Blue Tang!!! The other fishes look fine and no flashing/scratching behaviors. These look very very small, the size of one of his/her scales perhaps.
I think I will keep watch today and skip the water change tonight to increase the salinity any further and see what happens tomorrow. If they go away tomorrow, like the few that did a month ago, I will continue my salinity increase. I hope it is not bad news...
But if it is, I'll just get the fresh water ready and do a 100 gallon change to bring the salinity back down.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hope those "spots" are just from my tangs playing rough with each other and got a scale "rouffled"...
Its the Powder Blue Blues!
I wonder if it is possible that the Powder Blue is a reservoir of crypt?
Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated!!!

 

[leebca]

I wonder if it is possible that the Powder Blue is a reservoir of crypt?

That's how mis-information gets around. The fish can't hide or protect the parasite. And either the parasite is gone, dead, eradicated, or it isn't.

Just be sure of the diagnosis. I suggest if the 'spots' don't go away that you post clear, up close photos here of the fish. Also consider any possibilities of cross-contamination from the DT. Splashing, spray, droplets, etc. or using the same nets, equipment, hydrometer/refractometer, thermometer, etc.?

The fish can handle a lowering of the specific gravity very well -- just not the raising. Watch and control pH closely.

I assume you've gone through these post? If not, do so when you can:
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/52236-curing-fish-marine-ich.html
and
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

Hoping things work out well!

 

[blennielove]

Hello Lee, thanks for your thoughts and reply! :angel3:
The spots have all gone today! lsmile: They were the same "type" of spots that I saw here and there since starting hyposalinity around July 15th, NOT the same type of spots I saw back when the tank was infested with Crypt - but a spot is a spot and I've got to have my guards UP. :wit:
It was very scary though, my heart literally jumped into my throat when I saw them. :grind:
I will keep a close eye on them and see. I will "know" it is Crypt if I get a recurrance in 3-4 days as that is their cycle.
:read: :read: :read: I've read the posts on Marine Ich many many times, and with each read I have the knowledge further refreshed in my mind. In fact, it was the first thing I did as soon as I saw the spots!
I will keep you posted as to their progress!

I'm glad to learn that the PBT is not and CANNOT be a living reservoir for cryptocaryon... I was thinking of getting rid of him... But now, my confidence is once again resurrected by knowledge!

Like that old Saturday Morning School House Rock saying, "Knowledge is Power!"

Thanks again Lee!!!

 

[blennielove]

Well, after three days of observation, the one spot turned into three, then five...They are still very small and tight, and can only be seen as white when the fish is tilted at just the right angle, it also doesn't leave a "pit" when the spot resolves in 1-3 days...I also noted "spots" on my Kole Tang, they look more like spots of poor coloration...
The conclusion that I came to last night is this:
The fishes were tolerating the hyposalinity well, the tank was actually very stable with pH around 8.05, and most importantly, there were NO spots... well, except the ONE spot that would come on the PBT every month or so....
SO, here we go again.
I've already got 120 gallons of pure RO/DI water, temperature matched, and will be pH matched by tonight and I'll bring down the salinity faster than last time, I think I'll be at 1.008 by Monday night as it takes me a day to get the water made, temperature adjusted...
Wish me luck!

PS: I remember Lee's article "Fish with White Spot that Went Away"...
A spot is a spot is a spot, and what every my fishes spots are, they were NOT there while in hypo, so...my current plans are to go hypo for four months after the last spot is gone. I think that because the crypt in my tank had been there so long, maybe I have lots and lots and lots of Cryptocaryon cysts of all stages in my tank and one can errupt after 72 days!?! So...I've got to beat it with a very long period of hypo to make sure that ALL the cysts will errupt during that time.

 

[leebca]

I think you began the thread that you were doing this in your display tank. I'd like to know more about your system.

What, besides fish, is in your DT? Can you list also all the decorations you have, any substrate, etc.

Then, outside the DT, but connected to it, what do you have -- any sump, refugium, filters, etc.

Are the fish you are treating with hypo still in the DT?

Thanks.

 

[blennielove]

Hi Lee,

I'd love to share the information:

My DT is a 72x24x30 with a LifeReef sump/refugium/skimmer. It also has an old Magnum canister pump with the water returning through a TurboTwist 36 watt UV Sterilizer.

The refugium has 10lbs of rock and 30lbs of sand with recently replaced Chaeto that were living in a bucket for the past 6 months - they were previously from this system.
Magnum canister filter is filled with ceramic beads, which not to think about it maybe I should take it out and replace with carbon?

The tank has what was 300lbs of previously "live" rock and 350lbs of previously "live" sand. It was a reef tank until I took all the corals out to treat it. The tank has been through first Formalin at 45 ml every three days for countless weeks, to Quinine Sulfate, Chloroquine Phosphate, back to Formalin, and lastly Hypo - I need to make it very clear here that HYPO HAD BEEN THE KINDEST TO MY FISHES! By the time that I've arrived at hyposalinity treatment, I know that I've killed off 99.9% of anything live in the rocks and sand. I've dealt with the increased bio load with water changes as frequently as 40 gallons twice daily. Many people were surprised to see that my fishes have not been killed by me!

The current inhabitants are:
My "darling" Powder Blue Tang at 4.5"
Atlantic Blue Tang who grew from less than 2" to now, something over 6"
Kole Tang at 4"
Emperor Angel 4"
Pair of Percula Clowns who are constantly trying to build a nest even though they really are too young
Pair plus two single Firefish gobies
Randalls goby 4.5"
Yellow watchman goby 2.5"
Two red scooter blennies
Starry Blenny
My "lucky" cleaner wrasse (Lucky because he/she eats everything!)
And lastly, and I don't know how this little guy survived, Mr. Hermit Crab

The tank is at 1.021 or 27 PPt currently as I "stopped short" of going all the way when I saw the spots.

You saw the pictures of the clowns with the ich on the post "Not Ich...but what can it be". My spots look NOTHING like those and that is what is throwing me off. My original crypt looked like that but now it really looked like a raised little pinpoint dot on the Powder Blue and then a non-raised pentip points of discoloration on the Kole tang. Behaviorally there has been no chasing after the cleaner wrasse, scratching, or fin twitching. One thought I had about it is that could this be a "stress response" as I was increasing the salinity going day to day from 1.008 to 1.010 to 1.011 to 1.013 to 1.015 to 1.018 to 1.019 then pausing for two days when I saw the ONE "spot" to 1.020 then paused another day to 1.021 last Wednesday. In addition to the increasing salinity, I bet much of the bacteria that were there at the lowered salinity are also adjusting to this change, so the water quality have decreased.

Current vitals are:
Temperature 81.8, pH 8.12 with bicarb buffer, Nitrate 0, Nitrite 20, Ammonia 0.125, Phosphate 2.0 with API Test Kit.
These results are not my usual as the Ammonia and Nitrite have been 0 in the past. Maybe I should do a huge water change to improve the water quality and see what happens to the "spots"!

I can go either way. I can make the water to continue the increase in salinity or go backwards.

I'm ready for any insight and suggestions!

Thanks for taking your time to think about this!!!

:smile"






One thing that I was wondering about, as to really think that the crypt cysts were alive after so long was the protein skimmer. I had unplugged the thing way back when I was doing all sorts of treatments, it had stayed in the sump. Now, AFTER I started raising the salinity, I though to myself "Oh boy! I can turn this baby back on" ... I noticed that there was water sitting in the protein skimmer. It probably sat there since, you know, when the crypt were having a blast reproducing in the tank! So I carefully tried to move it out to clean it, but ofcourse, stinky water spilled everywhere, including back into the sump...Hummm. I washed and scrubbed it as best I could, running it in a tub full of hot water for an hour then hot vinegar water for another hour before another hot water again, then finally distilled water before returning it to the sump. It's produing nice skimmate now. But, could I have let loose some nicely quarantined virulent Crypt?!?

 

[DaveK]

How long did you do the original hyposalinity treatment for?

Typically this treatment needs to be done for 8 weeks, once you get the SG down.

 

[blennielove]

Hi Dave, thanks for checking in!
I started lowering my salinity on June 30 and reached 1.010 on July 6. Since then, it had been fairly constant (between 1.009 and 1.010, never higher than 1.010) till September 22 when I lowered it to 1.008 and was held there until I started raising the salinity on September 28.
I started adding garlic xtreme to the food yesterday, just to boost their immunity a little, it wouldn't hurt I guess.

 

[leebca]

Well. . .You have a few extra parameters in your treatment. That is to say, the equipment, sump, refugium, live-now-dead rock, etc.

To be perfectly honest, I have no information or data with regards to treatment of Marine Ich while in a setup. All my knowledge, studies, and research was carried out in quarantine tanks setup as indicated in the post.

You may be right in the sense that some of the parasites have found a 'home' somewhere. Still, it would be totally unusual for any to make the 72-day mark. This is a possibility though, according to Dr. Burgess. I'm unsure what all those other parameters may affect in the treatment process.

You are in a 'new area' as far as handling a Marine Ich infestation goes. It seems to me though that with all you've been through, it is time to take a more conventional route -- move fish into a setup QT and then treat them there. Then, go about tearing down the DT system, removing dead rock, etc. and proceeding to set it up again.

 

[blennielove]

Thanks Lee!

I will wait and see and do as suggested if and when I need.

One thing that all this has taught me is that I must not "react" but instead to "respond" in an thoughtful fashion.

All the "spots" are gone today, I know that the crypt cycle does this, but I'm just not 100% certain that I was seeing crypt spots. Their behavior is also very different from when they were infected. I still have several days before I need to "settle" down on a path of action as I will be going to Japan in a couple of weeks...

So, I will be diligent and watch and see.

I will keep you posted as to their progress!

Thanks for your input!!!

 

[blennielove]

Hello everyone!
Well...YOU'VE GUESSED IT! It's back!
I've been doing water changes in the DT again to lower the salinity and today, it has arrived at 1.008 or 10 ppt, pH is at 8.08 with Bicarb as buffer that I add each day.
Knowing that there are many many many more "extra parameters" definitely put a spin on things and I've learned (I really hope that "I've learned"), that with this system type of treatment, I've got to double or triple time.
An example would be back when I was treating with quinine sulfate in a true hospital tank. I treated with qs for 3 weeks in the HT, my main tank went fallow for 7 weeks, I placed the fishes back, and two weeks later, crypt gallore!
I believe that since this crypt is from November 09, it is VERY EMBEDDED in my system. So, I have crypt tomonts surviving somewhere, it can be 1 in a million, it hatches releasing 300 theronts, one gets on the fish and here we go again!
I'm going to try the hyposalinity of the DT again as it went "so well" last time - meaning how well the fishes tolerated it, but this time, I've reached 1.008/10 ppt and I'm staying here the whole 6 months! Yes, I'm going for six months and see if a single tomont survives! If it does, I'll have to be checked into a mental institution!
I'm thinking that as long as the inhabitants are thriving in hyposalinity, why risk it so soon...
I'll also try the Beta-glucan again too, they liked the tast of it last time!

Question:
Which stage of the Crypt's life cycle does hyposalinity destroys?
I remember it was the tomonts, but that was related to "when" hyposalinity was started. But, honestly, I am very confused now.

Thanks!!!!

 

[leebca]

The hyposalinity treatment doesn't destroy or kill the parasite. What it does is stress the parasite. In a bare tank, there is no place for the parasite to 'hide' or thus, avoid the stress effects.

Once in the fish, the parasite has no concern about water conditions. When the parasite is off the fish is when it is stressed by the hyposalinity. The most exposure the parasites gets to the hyposaline water is primarily in the theront stage. I believe from my studies that the cysts and post cyst stage, tomonts are also stressed. However they still have some 'protection.'