Grain Alcohol?

Jerome

Member
My friend came by the other nightand he has a reef. He told me that he was using a new "technique" that sounded a bit strange to me (and unsafe). He said that he was running short lighting cycle 4 hours a day and dosing "vodka" aka grain alcohol and amino acids. I looked on the web for information and all I found was an article by Eric Borneman in which he sounds highly skeptical of the beneficial effects of dosing grain alcohol to bloom bacteria. I was wondering if anyone knows what this system of keeping is called. It has a name to like the "bla-bla method" I just couldn't remember what he called it when he was over.

:jumprope:
 

mps9506

Well-Known Member
IMO if you have to dose stuff to kick start bacteria populations in the tank, then something else in the tank is out of whack.
If there is enough live rock and sufficent substrate or filter media for bacteria to colonize, then there is no need to additional bacteria to consume nutrients. Plus I haven't seen any documented data on long term effects of adding small amounts of grain alcohol on tank inhabitants. Although not much, I still wonder what the additional affects are.
Plus, i agree with wit. Don't waste alcohol.
 
ldrhawke said:
I have had good success in reducing nitrates and phosphate by dosing Vodka over last year.
OK, I may be opening a can of worms here, but I have to admit that curiosity has me. Can you please explain your method? Do you have the data to back up the claim? Please know that I am not being critical, just honestly curious and if it is something that works it might help others out.

Anne
 

Tarasco

Active Member
Personally, I like to drink my booze. I wonder if the fish get a little bit of a buzz from adding vodka?
 

ldrhawke

New Member
I'm leaving the office and i'll respond with more detail later.

Reef keepers objecting to using alcohol as a clean carbon source in reef keeping is like a Southern Baptist objecting to a doctor cleaning a wound with an alcohol swab. :smoking:
 

mps9506

Well-Known Member
ldrhawke said:
I'm leaving the office and i'll respond with more detail later.

Reef keepers objecting to using alcohol as a clean carbon source in reef keeping is like a Southern Baptist objecting to a doctor cleaning a wound with an alcohol swab.

I had no problems reducing phosphates once I got rid of the large phosphate and nutrient sink in my tank (DSB).
There is no dount that doseing alcohol or sugar can reduce nutrients in the aquarium. However why dose something when the tank can be setup to reduce phosphate and elimanate nitrates in the first place?
 

Sharkbait

Active Member
I've heard of this a couple of times now.The results is almost always the same, the doser becomes the dosee.Next thing you know you and your tank have to go to "meetings". Seriously though, I've seen it performed, but it always seems to be cut off too early to make an opinion on its long term safety in reef environments.

Make mine a double, it's for me not the tank!
 

cheeks69

Wannabe Guru
RS STAFF
The results weren't all that nice in Lab and later on in the aquarias !

I do know arround 30 aquarists in europe that lost some big quantity of their stony corals... mostly due to
bacterial infections.

The ethanol boosts the growth of almost any bacteria in the tank, some people even reported some withe slimy film
on the aquaria glass. In some tanks the coral died because of "starvation", since PO4 and/or NO3 went down to zero in no time.
Some other ones dies because of the mysterious PO4 increase.

I did a some test in my Lab here in switzerland over period of about 2 month. I did these with some enriched bacteria cultures of my
tanks sediments. When the PO4/NO3 ration was around 1/16, there was a good decrease of PO4 and NO3. If not so, the one or the other
element was the limiting factor stopping or slowing the bacterial bloom. As soon as these happened, the PO4 went up. The answer to that
is, that the dying bacteria where releasing the Phosphorus they previously got out of the PO4.
In a normal tank the skimmer should eliminate most of the biomass resulting from the bacterial bloom. But if the skimmer is
to slow or the biomass to big, then the tank would suffer a massive PO4 peak.
In one tank I was able to measure these, the PO4 went up to 2mg in 18 houres ! If we wouldn't have been monitoring these tank
so closely, then these would have been the end of another aquarium... but we where able to bring enough PO4 Adsorber in to the System
to remove it just in time...


Some other experiments in these area where about the bacterial diversity. The diversity decreased in all cultures and aquarias after
a short while, when feeding it whit ethanol or vodka. In some closed cultures I ended up with just one bacterial strain left in the culture within a week.

Since then I used ethanol only for "jump starting" new systems, so I could get very fast a good bacterial density in a fresh tank.

I believe that ethanol is very dangerous, since its unpredictable what the bacteria growth will be in a certain tank. Ethanol will boost almost
any bacterial, even some marine pathogens. Depending on the conditions, those bacterias might take over the system.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...88714&perpage=25&highlight=vodka&pagenumber=5

I would be very hesitant with these results.
 

Craig Manoukian

Well-Known Member
mps9506 said:
I had no problems reducing phosphates once I got rid of the large phosphate and nutrient sink in my tank (DSB).

A DSB does not have to be the nutrient sink that everyone alludes to. I recently took down my 80 gallon display tank, a donation to the Wooster HS Science department, after 3 years of it being in operation.

There was absolutely no acrid smell to the tank as we cleaned out the sand. Roger, the Wooster HS Science teacher, Rougiem here on RS, commented that the sand smelled like the beach at the ocean.

I give most of the credit to my cleaning crew. Nassaurious Snails, Fighting Conch, Polycheates, and Scarlet Hermits continually cleaned and stirred my 4" DSB. My refugium with Cheatomorpha, 15 to 20 times water turnover, and a skimmer also get some credit. I did not do regular water changes to export nitrates/phosphates, maybe 3 or 4 times a year and a topped off with regular water.

I employ the same methodology in my 20 gallon long and niether tank had anything more than a little algea buildup on the glass which need to be cleaned every couple of weeks

Sofari so goodi! :)
 

cheeks69

Wannabe Guru
RS STAFF
A DSB does not have to be the nutrient sink that everyone alludes to. I recently took down my 80 gallon display tank, a donation to the Wooster HS Science department, after 3 years of it being in operation.

If a SB is well maintained then it can last a few years but eventually PO4 will be a problem there's no escaping, it's a DSB's destiny.
 

mps9506

Well-Known Member
cheeks69 said:
If a SB is well maintained then it can last a few years but eventually PO4 will be a problem there's no escaping, it's a DSB's destiny.

I have to agree. 3 years is a very short time for a tank to be setup imo if you are judging the long term stability of a tank and the ability of a filter to cope with handaling nutrient input.
I am by no means saying DSB isn't a viable option as a nitrate consumer, however, what goes in must come out at some point in time. If the inhabitants of the tank are setup to deal with the nutrients that load up the bed, then there is no problem. But anyways, been there done that, this has been discussed a million times and we all know there are various ways to do this.

As far as the alcohol, I still feel that a tank should not need any additives to maintain bacteria levels sufficient enough to consume the nutrients in a reef tank. If it is nec. to add/boost bacteria levels then there is to much nutrient input or not enough substrate/or proper water conditions for bacteria that should already be there.

JMO.
Mike
 

ldrhawke

New Member
There are a number of different ways to address exporting issues. I'm not advocating how I export is the only way or for anyone else to copy it. But this works for me, as my tanks shots show. I'm simply looking for a way to improve and make reef keeping easier. I call it NPR....no realtionship to National Public Radio :jumprope:

It is my Nitrogen/Phosphate Ranching (NPR) system to grow and export nutrient rich bacteria........ :thumber:

As with any additive Vodka dosing can be easily misapplied and be a disaster, as has been described in some responses. I can also show you similar failures with every method for exporting or biologically treating waste in reef keeping; be it DSB, BB, Plenums, Fuges, Zeo, Phos removal medias,etc. It does not mean they don't work. For every failure I can show you someone that has succeeded.

I have read dozens of accounts of success and failure in using Vodka, with conventional tank addition methods. Most of the failures were because a user applied ten times too much, had no idea of how much to dose, and/or had no idea of what to look for as indicators to increase, reduce or stop dosing.

Nitrates are easy to export, but phosphate will slowy build and cause problems, since they get deposited in substrate and in the live rock.

I don't add Vodka to simply increase bacteria production. I use Vodka to build bacteria biomass in a manner that allows me to concentrate the biomass to make it easier export nitrates and phosphates on demand. Simply coating everything in the tank with a layer of bacteria can be dangerous. If biomass on the rocks and substrate does not get into the water column so it can be skimmed, it is simply redeposit into the tank as the bacteria dies. My method reduces the risk of phosphates being dissolved back into the system as the bacteria dies.

I've been doing this for nearly a year. It works. The short version....

At the top of my recirculation tank I built a 3" deep rectangular tray with two large holes on the bottom. Two coarse nylon bag filter set in these holes. Into the bags I add a handful of filter floss. All of my tank overflow is directed through the bag filters. As the bag filter begin to clog with waste, the water rises a couple of inches and over flows the tray into the recirculation tank.

My tank has periodic heavy recirculation and little waste ever collects on the bottom. The floss always has detrius and uneated food in it, so I always have nitrogen and phosphate available in the filter to limit the possiblity of the bacteria growth becoming N or P limited. If I am not using it in conjunction with Vodka dozing the bags and floss are emptied daily so they do not become a nitrate factory. It is a two minute job....10 minutes in the morning with a cup of coffee.

Before I go to bed, I only dose 1/2 ml of Vodka / 25 G of tank capacity but it is directly into the filter tray...not into the tank. I also dose an amino acid and dry phytoplankton mix with the Vodka to enrich the bacteria. Within two hours you can see the bags develop bacteria slime on the outside.

If my tank has excess nutrients, the floss inside the bag filter will clog and cause the water flowing into the tray to start over flowing within 6 to 8 hours. The outside of the bag looks like Santa's beard from the bacteria slime. When I am dosing Vodka I do not let the bags go more than 12 hours without being emptied, otherwise the bacteria slime starts breaking down and reentering the water column.

The over flow indicates to me the bag is loaded with a nitrogen and phosphate laden bacteria biomass. In the morning I toss the floss in the garbage....the most positive export I can think of. The floss is like picking up a hand full of snot or watery jello it is so filled with bacteria. My skimmer is working over time while I'm dosing Vodka.

If the tray doesn't over flow within 8 hours from the build up of biomass, I stop dosing Vodka for a week, and then start over again. The reduced bacteria grwoth indicates to me P and N are reduced enough. It maintains enough nutrients to keep softies and reduces them enough to keep SPS. The mandrin, tangs, etc; are all fat.

While I am dosing Vodka I don't feed the tank. Although bacteria build up in ther tank is reduced, if you look closely you can see that there is plenty of white bacteria film on all the surfaces and in the water column for the fish and coral to feed on. The fish love the white bacteria film and nibble on it all day.

Neither excess nitrates or phosphates, nor available coral food are an issue in my system. The tank is bare bottom. I can start and stop the system with out adverse effects. As I said, it works for me. I am not worried about my tank suddenly flipping from uncontrolled phosphate release, if for any reason pH or salinity changes.
 
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