First Time Sump, I need some of the big guns to give me their tips!

[puffermike]

Ok guys... I can't resist not doing an upgrade this year again and I'm going to need some solid advice.

I've never done a sump system at all. I'm a total newb when it comes to designing them. I understand the basic concept of what they do and all that jazz, I just need some hard wet facts on what I need.

My system all together will be about 180Gs of water with a 125D and a 55g sump.

The first order of business is to tell you guys the kind of 125 I actually have. It's a dual over flow.

That's the tank. I really don't know how well that style of over flow does. I'm willing to shave off those boxes and seal up the 4 holes on the bottom if... the bean style overflow is considered better.

Here is the bean style.

If anyone doesn't know about the system here are the specs...
http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

This will be sitting in my living room, and I want it to be as quiet as possible. If you guys think the dual overflow already equipped on the tank will work just as well please do tell. I'd rather not rip the premade stuff apart. I don't think i'll be going with a refugium but I will have a spot in the tank with rubble unless you guys thinks it's really worth it. I could buy a huge skimmer instead.

So, my questions are...
1. Should I use that overflow or make a new one?
2. What kind of return pump should I purchase?
3. What type of skimmer?


I'll be grabbing that new Gyre Riptide for water movement and I've already got some LEDS picked out for the tank. I'm also interested in the reef angel and reef keeper systems for monitoring. Anyone ever use those?

 

[puffermike]

I'm thinking about these so far...

The 6" one.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=24783


The Mag 18.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=20404

 

[DaveK]

Here are my thought on your proposed system.

If you are going to use a 55 gal tank as the sump, make sure you can easily get it inside the stand, with the display tank on the stand, and the stand in it's permanent location. You just never know when you might have to remove it to repair or replace it. Offhand, I'd say this will be a tight fit.

On sump design. Make sure the return section is large enough to hold all the water that will drain down when the power goes off, and that the area will not run dry. Many people make this section far too small.

That 55 gal tank used as a sump will end up holding a lot less than 55 gal. Figure about 30 gal when in operation, and it may be even less. Since this will be a DIY project, expect to build it, find something not quite right, and then rebuild the sump. This can occur a few times.

If your going to install the skimmer in the sump, make sure you can remove the skimmer for cleaning and maintenance.

The bean animal overflow is noted for being silent, but it is a somewhat complex construction project and does involve drilling the tank. As you point out you would need to cut out the existing overflows in a reef ready tank to install it.

Noise is somewhat subjective. What I might think is minimal noise might sound like a freight train coming through to you. I recommend doing a test on the overflow system. You can use any old tank like a 15 gal or 20 long as a test sump. Plumb the overflows to the return, and plumb you return pump. Fill the tank with FW and start things up see how the overflow noise compared to the noise from everything else in the room. If it's completely intolerable then do the conversion to the bean animal overflow. Remember that your only testing overflow noise here. You'll get noise from other parts of the system.

Skimmer selection. The skimmer your looking it is a good skimmer, but it's too small for your application, as it's rated for a 150 gal tank. Skimmer manufacturers tend to be "very optimistic" when it comes to rating their products. Generally you want a skimmer rated for a tank about double the size you plan to run it on. In other words, you want a skimmer rated for about a 250 to 300 gal tank. As for specific brands, I think any quality product will work just fine. I'm using a Lifereef skimmer on my 125 gal reef, but there are plenty of others that make good skimmers.

On pump selection. The Mag 18 your looking at is a good all around value. (as a note, your link goes to a mag 18 configured for use with a skimmer, you want a standard Mag 18 see this link (offsite) - http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4587+4590&pcatid=4590 ) The one downside is that it draws 150w of power. That's going to be releasing a lot of heat into the water, if you mount the pump inside the sump. Consider mounting any pump you use externally. It's a bigger plumbing job, since you need to include valves and unions so you can remove the pump for service. The advantage is that most of that heat stays outside the system.

 

[sirrealism]

If I am correct "And normally not" You can do the bean style in a reef ready system so it will be silent. You just have to add pipe stands to the overflows with U shaped ends. I have this in my 93 cube and its silent. This might be called something other then bean. I cant keep the names straight but its the same idea and works just as well. The idea is to have the water in the overflow not sloshing all the way to the bottom. A lot of new reef ready systems come with this design already. IMO there is no reason to remove the overflows. They have worked for many years and no reason to change it

 

[sirrealism]

Also DC pumps have come a long way and have several benefits over AC power pumps. First off they draw less power so create less heat and cost less to run. Plus they are controllable. You might run it at 100% but you can use feed mode which turns it off for several mins.

 

[PSU4ME]

You might want to consider turning your current overflows into the herbie style and plumbing your return over the top. Much simpler than the bean due to the use of existing setup rather than having to make new. I have it on mine and while I can run it dead silent, I have it make a little noise so my OCD is satisfied. It goes literally silent to the point where I'm not sure if it is running.

Unless the stand has side doors, you're going to have an issue getting that 55 in and out. Do some practice runs. I take mine out 2x a year for cleaning so keep that in mind.

Right now, patience and planning are your friend...... Ask your questions before the drills and glue come out

 

[puffermike]

Based on what DaveK said about the skimmers... perhaps I'll go with this one instead. It seems to be the best bang for the buck based on the GPH and tank size it can handle, compared to the 500$ ones.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+13924&pcatid=13924

Is there a good quality DC pump that anyone would recommend?

 

[DaveK]

Keep in mind that you get what you pay for. I'd rate the Coralife skimmer as ok, but it's not going to compare to the $500 skimmer.

It's kind of like the old joke... A guy wants to hire an airplane pilot and finds the various pilots charge between $500 and $2000. So he asks the $2000 about it. The pilot replies "Well, you can hire one of those $500 pilots if you want to, just make sure you keep them out of $2000 weather." Same sort of thing with skimmers.

As for DC pumps, then can do a lot of nice tricks, such as vary the flow rate during the day. I'm not sure if they are worth the added cost. I can't recommend any of them because I have never felt the need to replace my current pumps, which are Iwaki.

 

[PSU4ME]

While I have no experience, I know people who like the waveline DC pumps.

 

[puffermike]

From reading multiple reviews on every DC pump I'm not too thrilled with the results, out of the two prominent brands that sell them, they both have terrible reviews. The results ranged from pumps failing constantly, housing cracking and the adjusters not working. I think I'll go with the Mag 18 on this one. Something as important as the return pump, I don't want to cut any corners. I need the mags solid reputation day after day.

For the skimmer I've decided on the Eshopps PSK300. It's rated for 300G and it's in the middle for pricing at around 350. I have an Eshopps HOB right now and I have not had any issues with it. It's a true work horse, with reasonable pricing.

I'm pondering if I should order bulk live rock from a website? I've always went out and hand picked all of my LR but I'm going to need a lot for this tank. Has anyone ordered from BulkReefSupply? I was interested in their dry live rock. The idea of being pest free sounds great.

 

[puffermike]

So, I found some other lads design for his sump in his 125.

With this setup and the drain lines being so low, won't that create more noise with the water going into the overflow the whole way to the bottom? Would it be plausible to raise them higher so the noise level is reduced? I'm thinking I should add a lot more unions and ball valves to this setup as well. As far as PVC vs vinyl tubing what do you guys wager is better?

 

[StirCrayzy]

I run a bean animal overflow and the silence is wonderful. The key to the setup is having 1 drain tuned down with a valve to maintain a constant full siphon. You can easily add a valve to one drain below the tank. The second drain takes on only enough flow to trickle down the sides of that drain pipe. No gurgles. At this point you have a "herbie".
The side effect of this is a dangerous condition in which the first drain is at full capacity, and some ignorant snail decides to sit on top. The second open drain may not handle full return flow at a raised water level when air is trapped inside (breather can work). The third open drain all but guarantees the water goes down.
You can convert RR to Bean style, but most importantly, What size pipes ar e the holes going to accept?
Mag18 return can run through a single 1" pipe and you could split it at the top of the overflow to spread it out.
This assuming all your returns are at least 1", you should be good.
I also agree with the concept of being able to remove whatever sump you get under there, at anytime. Now is the time to make that a reality !

 

[puffermike]

I run a bean animal overflow and the silence is wonderful. The key to the setup is having 1 drain tuned down with a valve to maintain a constant full siphon. You can easily add a valve to one drain below the tank. The second drain takes on only enough flow to trickle down the sides of that drain pipe. No gurgles. At this point you have a "herbie".
The side effect of this is a dangerous condition in which the first drain is at full capacity, and some ignorant snail decides to sit on top. The second open drain may not handle full return flow at a raised water level when air is trapped inside (breather can work). The third open drain all but guarantees the water goes down.
You can convert RR to Bean style, but most importantly, What size pipes ar e the holes going to accept?
Mag18 return can run through a single 1" pipe and you could split it at the top of the overflow to spread it out.
This assuming all your returns are at least 1", you should be good.
I also agree with the concept of being able to remove whatever sump you get under there, at anytime. Now is the time to make that a reality !

The holes are 1 7/16" and 1 3/4"

You're saying I need a third open drain... So, I need to have another hole drilled if I have two return lines feeding into the tank with three drains?

 

[StirCrayzy]

I'm saying if you want full bean animal, use three of the 4 holes for drains. Just use one line for the return.
I wouldn't drill another hole.

1.75 is 1" BH hole size. The other is for 3/4 BH I guess, but seems a little big, I think 1.25 is normal.

 

[reefer gladness]

Consider the herbie style of plumbing as suggested by PSU4ME. I run herbie and it's dead silent, advantages as mentioned before is you only need 2 holes drilled for each overflow box and the return can be up and over the back of the tank and fed through a spray bar if desired.

Yes, the pipes can be much taller than that in the overflow box. The important factors are the height difference between the two pipes in each overflow box, about 4-6 inches gives enough leeway to adjust the water height above the lower pipe and below the taller pipe that stays open. The taller pipe just needs to below enough so that if the lower one becomes blocked the tall pipe acts as the emergency overflow pipe so the display tank doesn't flood the floor.

 

[puffermike]

Consider the herbie style of plumbing as suggested by PSU4ME. I run herbie and it's dead silent, advantages as mentioned before is you only need 2 holes drilled for each overflow box and the return can be up and over the back of the tank and fed through a spray bar if desired.

Yes, the pipes can be much taller than that in the overflow box. The important factors are the height difference between the two pipes in each overflow box, about 4-6 inches gives enough leeway to adjust the water height above the lower pipe and below the taller pipe that stays open. The taller pipe just needs to below enough so that if the lower one becomes blocked the tall pipe acts as the emergency overflow pipe so the display tank doesn't flood the floor.

So.. something like this would do me best.

 

[StirCrayzy]

Definitely the simplest approach to start with.

 

[DaveK]

So, I found some other lads design for his sump in his 125.

{... Image removed ...}

With this setup and the drain lines being so low, won't that create more noise with the water going into the overflow the whole way to the bottom? Would it be plausible to raise them higher so the noise level is reduced? I'm thinking I should add a lot more unions and ball valves to this setup as well. As far as PVC vs vinyl tubing what do you guys wager is better?

This sump design in from the other site is an ok place to start but it's got quite a few things that could be improved upon.

As for your questions about the drain, you can get noise from several places in the drain system. You can get the gurgle you get when they don't have a constant supply of air. You also get the splashing the water makes when it comes out of the pipe. Drain water running through a horizontal pipe usually doesn't add too much noise, because there should be the free flow air in the pipe and the water is not picking up speed like it does when it flows down a vertical pipe. Several methods to silence some of the noise have been mentioned. In your case, I'd build the system and test it for a couple of weeks with just FW. Be sure to test power failures, running with low water, and anything else you can think of. You will very likely find that some areas must be rebuilt to get things just right. This is ok, and rather standard for a DIY sump, although few will admit to it.

Actually you want to add as few unions and valves as possible, since each one you add will reduce water flow. Except for designs that require it like the bean animal overflow, valves in the drain pipes are generally a bad idea. They create a restricted flow point that can collect anything flowing through the pile, such as big pieces of algae and dirt. I prefer to use one or two true union valves from the return pump. This gives you a pair of unions and valve all in one. You put unions where you will need to take the system apart. Typically this will be where water enters a device like a reactor or UV unit. These are also good candidates for using true union valves.

I have found that using rigid PVC pipe and fittings for most of the connections and flexible PVC pipe (spa flex), for the few places you need to make a smooth bend, is the best all around way to go. Properly cemented this will never leak or come apart. Also since the pipe is opaque you will not get any algae growing inside it. You also will not get the flow restriction you would get using clear tubing and hose barbs. While we are on the subject or pipe, clear PVC primer is available, and you'll get a much neater looking job using that, compared to the purple primer. There are also special cements available for flexible PVC pipe (spa flex), and they give a better connection to flexible pipe than normal PVC cement.

One good trick is to purchase a few extra valves and unions and fittings, just in case you need to add on or repair the system later. These can sometimes be tough to find when you need one in an emergency.

 

[reefer gladness]

So.. something like this would do me best.

Technically this will work, but you've turned your dual-overflow tank into a single overflow in the process. With this design only the overflow on the left is working and the overflow box on the right sits useless unless the left-side overflow becomes obstructed.

This really negates one of the advantages of the dual overflow boxes. You get less surface skimming and you've also restricted the size of the return pump to 1/2 of the available potential with both overflows in use.

You have 2 holes drilled for each overflow box - set it up with a main standpipe and emergency standpipe in each overflox box with the two standpipes approx. 4-6 inches difference in height. You can plumb both down to the left side of the sump separately or combine the two but I would leave them separate, remember you will want gate valves on both main standpipes to control flow.

The single return comes up and over the back of the tank and feeds into a spray bar with as many nozzles as you like to direct flow.

 

[DaveK]

So.. something like this would do me best.

{ ... Image Removed ...}

Reefer Gladness covered the drain and return plumbing well. I generally agree the that post. I also see some problems with your sump design.

The return section is far too small. This area needs to be able to hold enough water so the pump will not run dry. Look at the manufactured sumps, and you'll see that this area is typically about 1/3 to almost 1/2 of the sump.

Generally you want to feed the refugium section with filtered water. As it's plumbed now the refugium area will collect a massive amount of dirt, and in turn become a massive nitrate factory. Instead, use a T and valves off the main return pump to feed the refugium with filtered water. It will get much less dirt in it that way.

While we are on the subject of the refugium, don't over load this area with a lot of LR rubble. It's ok to have small amounts of live rock for pods and stuff to grow, but don't overdo it.

Ideally, you want to first run the water from the tank through some sort of mechanical filtration. Filter socks are ideal here, don't take up too much room, and are easy to replace and clean. This will also simplify your plumbing job for the overflow plumbing.

It looks like your trying to use a modified bean animal overflow, with only 2 overflow pipes. This is not recommended, because any blockage in the emergency overflow results in a flood.

With the typical 3 pipe bean animal overflow, the first pipe runs in a constant siphon mode, and you adjust the valve so that most of the water, about 90 - 95% is going through this pipe. Normally the other 5 - 10% flows through the second pipe. The third pipe only will carry water if one of the other pipes gets blocked. This feature is critical to preventing floods, because if you see any water at all going down the third pipe, you know you have a problem. With only two pipes water will always be going down both pipes, and there can be little indication if any of the pipes are partially blocked, and you have no fail safe. In other words, you really need all three pipes. Note - if your not planning a bean animal overflow, you can disregard this information.