Elegance Coral Theory questions

[charlesr1958]

Doesn't surprise me in the least, Over the years I have seen numerous (far too many) hobbyists that have no concept of what the word "experiment" entails and/or sees something happen within their single aquarium and with no actual testing or verification of any type, form "theorys", or worse, state an observation as being a fact with nothing to back it up other than their saying so. You can see this quite often with "dump it in" products or recipes and "methods". Dosing sugar is a great example.
The real problem begins when Joe Plumber turned Chemist posts his findings and when others ask for the science behind it with factual data to support such findings, then Joe Plumber, seeing that "his" claim to fame is being called into question then takes it personaly and it goes downhill from there. Of course, just as shown in the above thread, Joe Plumber only hangs out where he feels his "theory" or "method" is accepted, usualy by those who have as much clue as Joe, and walla!, Yet another myth gains entry. Should the actual science behind the observation and/or its possible dangers that were not thought through be revealed, Joe Plumber will not let go of his claim to glory and throw "I'm only interersted in helping/saving the coral" in our faces in an attempt to garner sympathetic support, which works quite often and garners a small following of support, which only strokes Joe's ego and most often ends up with others doing great damage to their corals or their entire systems.
If I ever pose an observation, I do so in the hopes that others will tear it apart and make me think. As long as you don't flat out call me an idiot, I am more than happy to hear any observation being ripped to shreds and would encourage it. So if you can not bear to have a pet "method" turned upside down and are unable to not take it personaly, you are in for a rough ride buddy.

Chuck

 

[prow]

I have spent far more money than I can afford, and way to much of my time on this project to argue with people about what I have learned, like in the thread you talked about. I believe I can help people keep these corals alive. There are those that are interested in how I keep my corals alive. There is a thread on "Thereeftank" where I am talking about this and it is going very well so far. I will not be going back to "Reefsanctuary". I went back and deleted a great deal of what I posted on that sight.

Hobby Experience: 20 years, reef tanks
Current Tanks: 29 gallon disply,55 gallon sump/refug, 5 gallon kalk doser, 3'x6" skimmer, 250w MH, one 40 W 50/50, two 40W o3, two 20W o3. sump lights= one 70W. 4000K MH and two 65W 10,000K compacts.
Interests: Coral research and breading.

hmm

i second the hmm, guess he will not be developing a hypthothesis. on a good note that may keep some from getting becoming discouraged because of some info they got at RS that did not help their coral.

 

[Dentoid]

Nah-nah-nah-nah, nah-nah-nah-nah, hey-hey-hey, goodbye!:whstlr:

This is the second time he has left us. I respected him for coming back the first time, but if you can't stand the salt, get out of the reef!

 

[lcstorc]

Always sorry to see someone go but it is his decision either way.
Lots of people post their personal experiences here without any problem. There are many ways to have a successful reef tank.
Seems to me the problem came in when the information was presented as a scientific theory instead of just an observation by a hobbiest.

I will report shortly on my very drastic attempt to save my elegance. It does seem to be working but is not something I would recommend except as a last ditch effort. (Which is what it was.)

 

[John Kelly]

There are two consistent intracellular microbes in diseased corals, resulting in granulations of nematocysts, invasion of zooxanthellae and disruption of cellular architecture contingent on the degree of infection.
......

Acute oxidative stress from light overexposure could easily be the primary cause of the problem occurring within Elegance corals. Damage to zooxanthellae and to cellular architecture is EXACTLY what oxidative stress does, so the findings are interesting. The cells can be damaged faster than they can be protected and it can occur instantaneously. Microbial invasion would come after the initial damage and the continued "stress" from light overexposure would prevent cellular repair. As Darrell (elegance coral) pointed out from his observations, Elegance corals show a visible stress reaction to light by ballooning their oral areas and retracting their tentacles. Soon afterwards, they retract deep into their skeleton and eventually turn into mush. I have seen this reaction and I’m sure others have too. It does take “research” and “experimentation” to understand and interpret the behavior of corals, which is just as valid and just as important of a science as cutting them up and placing them under a microscope. The two sciences are complementary, not contradictory. Studying coral behavior takes a loooong time, requires a keen eye, and a creative mind to draw up hypothesis to test. Maybe it is the time factor that keeps more researchers from doing it; or maybe the fact that there is no money to be made from it.

Goniopora stokesi is one coral that does NOT have the ability of acclimating to a level of light that is much outside of the level where it came from. They often come into the hobby already "burned" and damaged. Intense light can kill them quick, less intense light can kill them slow; either way, they eventually die unless they are kept between a narrow range of intensity. Certain Elegance corals (deepwater?) may not be much different. It is not outside the bounds of reason to think that the two most difficult corals to keep in the hobby, which are often found near the same depth, may suffer from the same primary cause of their problems; although, they may die in a little different manner. How many hypotheses have been drawn up about the problems with Goniopora over the past 15 years? All of those “mysteries”, and more, were solved through the scientific study of the coral's behavior.

 

[charlesr1958]

Still doesn't work for me, being damaged by light causing cell damage still does explain how the pathogens are gaining entry nor why the effected specimens only become effected after collection. That and it seems everyone is stuck on shallow water and deep water specimens as if they are two different species. I have not heard of elegant corals nor gonioporas being unable to adapt to varying light degrees and would love to see the papers, if available online, that explains it. The reason I have my doubts is from my own simple observations, and yes, they are nothing more than an observation. I see both shallow and deep water specimens on a regular (weekly) basis and have collected them for my own aquarium from both locales. The last elegant coral that I had came from a water depth of 40+ feet deep, and here, with the turbidity of the water, that is deep for any coral. Once it out grew my tank, I returned it to the reef but only in about 8 feet of water, to this day, it is still doing great as I check on it on my way out to the reefs. It is not shaded by anything else by the way and gets a fulls day sun all day long. It had however been acclimated to my tank which has more light intensity than I would imagine 40+ feet deep recieves.
The only issue I have with what was presented was that a great deal of assumptions were made. For one, how was it determined that the corals he kept were even infected? From photos that I have seen of those corals, they looked to be simply bleached out and nothing like other photos that I have seen that Eric Borneman was studying, and found to be infected. Secondly, he was making statements as if he had found not only the cause, but a cure as well. So he reduces lighting for corals that could be "ill" for any number of reasons, and they responded. Okay, but all that would have done is to remove a possible stress (or maybe not) and the corals given the time to heal themselves, some of which did, some of which didn't. Moderate light and flow for maintaining an elegant coral was no big secret, and if one that is doing poorly responds to known favorable parameters, I don't see anything but the luck of the draw happening. Surely not a "cure".

Chuck

 

[John Kelly]

Still doesn't work for me........

Charles, I posted to state that there is a very real possibility that light overexposure could be the primary cause of the problem, how it affects the coral internally, correlate it to the chain reaction of invasion that Eric appears to have found, and compare it with the coral's behavioral patterns that Darrell is researching.

It is pointless to debate the possibility. Darrell will eventually prove it or disprove it.

 

[prow]

no john kelly, these microbes eric found have also been found in wild corals that were not collected. so the light thing is out.

 

[charlesr1958]

Darrell will eventually prove it or disprove it.

I don't see how. and again, I go back to one big issue. How would one know which out of the seven or so specimens are infected, if any. Merely looking at a small group would tell you nothing of why they are not doing well. Keeping in mind that he stated the corals have come from a variety of sources (tanks), so which ones, if any, have been infected, which ones, if any, had problems with poor water quality, which ones were not light acclimated? Which ones simply bleached out due to heat? How would you know those things by simply looking at them? You wouldn't, and if any recovered, were they even infected to begin with?

For me, it boils down to exposure, since for now, it is the only thing that makes common sense. To answer the question of how the pathogens are gaining entry, or what is allowing the pathogens to become so virulant would be far beyond Joe Plumber and a few specimens that for any number of possible reasons are not looking so good.

Now, add on top of it all, if there are wild specimens that were found to be infected prior to collection / shipping, then they were obviously not effected by any changes in light intensity, so toss that one out the window.

Then, not only do we have a hobbyist stating guesses and assumptions as facts as to how they are being infected, without any possibility of proving it, but is also suggesting a cure, which has already lead to one other hobbyist to assume that an elegant coral is worth risking a purchase, which means yet another elegant coral is being removed from the reefs to replace it at the LFS. To not challenge this guys claims and point out some fairly obvious problems only encourages him to keep posting and giving false hope to others. As far as I am concerned, he has only figured out that corals can some times heal themselves of an unknown problem (he doesn't know what their problem is) if given a chance to do so by providing them with the proper environment. Still nothing but the luck of the draw.

Chuck

 

[prow]

the corrilation seems to be with a certain fungus. question is wheather the fungal infection came after a viral or bacterial infection. usually a bacterial or viral infection preseeds a fungal infection. we may never know. if we stop buying long enough it would force the stop or slowing of collecting them. maybe if everyone did it for a certain period of time the holding tanks would be void of it with the no host, that is if it is species specific. try to buy them later after whatever time period, perhaps resulting in the "cure".

 

[Dentoid]

With enough research, a cause can be found, it's a matter of funding. Perhaps we can start a not for profit "Save the Elegance Coral" fund raising campaign and donate the money to Eric's research.

 

[sihaya]

With enough research, a cause can be found, it's a matter of funding. Perhaps we can start a not for profit "Save the Elegance Coral" fund raising campaign and donate the money to Eric's research.

Been done... many years ago. Thousands of $$ and dozens of corals (including people's personal corals) were donated and nothing ever came of it. The corals, if they survived Eric's "experiments," were never returned. So, no offense, but I would discourage people from giving anything more to Mr. Borneman for this project.

Personally, at this point, I would encourage anyone and everyone ("scientist" or not) to think about this problem and even experiment if they can. Some of the greatest ideas and theories have come from "layman."

I think the people here have some decent ideas. And there might be other people (real scientists) who could help. Maybe someone could even post to the NOAA Coral List Serve or contact Dave Lackland. This would be one way to maybe get some help from successful and experienced coral researchers.

 

[charlesr1958]

Too funny, you can not ever pass the chance to try and beat up on Eric and belittle him every chance you get. Nothing come of it? Having found pathogens within the coral is a great deal more than nothing. And how do you know the amount of money involved? The not so hidden agenda rises yet again.

Chuck

 

[charlesr1958]

I also meant to ask how one goes about contacting Dave Lackland?

Chuck

 

[boozeman]

Let us try not to delve into the politics involved behind the scenes, nor confuse the 'issues' involved between Mr. Bornemans floridian corals and his research into the elegance (both have always been separate).
I believe a lot of good can come from healthy exchanges of ideas between hobyists and scientists alike. [After all, many of the advances this hobby has seen in recent years has been atributed to the endeavors of dedicated aquarists worldwide].
I would hate to see this thread devolve into a shouting platform on legal/political issues...and I implore to all its participants to conduct themselves in a corteous and professional manner or the thread will be closed.

 

[Kazzy]

The first thought that popped into my head when I read that was that this was coming from a guy with a screaming kid as his avatar LOL and that if he can be courteous, then anyone can.
P.S.
I don't mean this disrespectfully, just thought it was funny what my brain says when I don't expect it..

 

[sihaya]

Let us try not to delve into the politics involved behind the scenes, nor confuse the 'issues' involved between Mr. Bornemans floridian corals and his research into the elegance (both have always been separate).

Well, of course they have always been separate and I'm not comparing the two at all. However, the fact still remains that it has been at least 5 years since the Elegance Coral Project was started. A few thousand $$ and dozens of corals later, and nothing so much as a reefkeeping article has been published since it started.

I just think it's time we entertained the ideas of some new people. There are other, more experienced scientists and researchers who might be able to help us.

 

[sihaya]

Having found pathogens within the coral is a great deal more than nothing.

Um, no it's not. We pretty much all always knew it was infectious. What we need to know is WHICH pathogen (or pathogens) and how, why, and when they infect the coral. Mr. Borneman has only told us what we all already knew... that something is infecting these corals.

 

[charlesr1958]

You're doing it again.

 

[John Kelly]

It is beyond me why some people can not seem to realize that the SOLUTION to the Elegance coral problem has already been proposed by a person that has been studying the behavior of multiple specimens for 1 1/2 years.

Why is it so difficult to give this person an ear and a little support?

Perhaps we can start a not for profit "Save the Elegance Coral" fund raising campaign and donate the money to Darrell's research. Maybe he is the one who needs donations.