Disaster Looming?

[Bengyboy]

After introducing myself and soliciting advice from this forum a month ago, I initiated my reef project on 5/1/2014. My project is a 150 gallon tank I’ve previously used as a FOWLR for a few years before having to shut it down to move. I went in to this with the understanding that patience (which I’m short on) is vital to success and almost immediately went against much of what I read on this site on what not to do. Ugh.

In anticipation and preparation for this project I purchased a RO/DI system, an Aqueon sump and resurrected rock and sand which had been in buckets outside for a couple of months by cleaning them and then putting the rocks in a covered Rubbermaid bin with saltwater, a power head and heater. Additionally, the sand was thoroughly rinsed and cleaned. The base rock was in the container for all of two weeks and did not smell bad when I initially put it in the Rubbermaid container and it didn’t smell bad when I took it out for placement in the tank. After my initial fill, I noted the tank temperature ranged from 78-82 degrees without lights so it was obvious I needed a chiller. After purchasing and installing a ½ hp chiller I felt I was solidly on my way. I enjoyed watching my tank with nothing but rocks in it, in anticipation of what it could be.

Prior to finding and consulting Reef Sanctuary however, I had also consulted with the local LFS guy for how to initiate a cycle for a reef tank. He advocated not doing the ‘deli-shrimp’ as recommended on this site but suggested cycling the tank (as I had done with FOWLR) by adding starter fish (5 Green Chromis), nitrifying bacteria (Nitromax) and Feather Caulerpa for the refugium. My LFS did advise that Caulerpa could not be sold because it’s so invasive. He ‘gave’ it to me.

Though I’ve never had a refugium (wet-dry previously) but was familiar with his recommended cycle process, this was the course of action I decided on. I believe now this was my LFS guy’s recommendation because he doesn’t sell live rock. The fish, bacteria and Caulerpa were added on 5/6/14 after running the tank a few days to ensure everything was plumbed and working properly. I then saw via this site, Feather Caulerpa is not recommended so it was removed and replaced with Chaeto. I also added about 10lbs of real live rock (I know not much) after two weeks of daily testing and no ammonia, nitrite or nitrates showing up. I do see a bit of algae growing on my rocks and glass as well as a bit of purpleish stuff in a few places as well.

So, now my confidence is going. I’ve got this. I figure, maybe the LFS guy knows his stuff, let’s add something. So, I introduced 8 Turbo Snails and they acclimated quickly and are all over the tank.

Another week passes by and I see (Craigslist) coral frags for sale. Hmmmm, Candy Cane coral (softball size) $25.00. Okay, let’s do it. Five Green Chromis, 8 Turbo Snails and a Candy Cane Coral are now residents. Nothing ominous showing up during testing yet either. I’m feeling pretty good but wondering if there’s a disaster looming? I don’t anticipate adding anything else for quite awhile….seriously.

 

[Mike Johnson]

There won't be a disaster if you regularly check for ammonia and then water changes appropriately to dilute the ammonia if present. You really have a need for more rock, at least 150 pounds. There are ways to run a tank without live rock, but requires reactors and dosing, and advanced knowledge. You didn't mention a protein skimmer either? Also real numbers on nitrates would help.

Welcome back.

 

[Bengyboy]

Thanks, Mike. Yes, I have a skimmer and I'm have close to 150 lbs of rock in the tank which includes the recently added 10lbs of live rock. I'm hoping the rock that was once live rock is becoming 'live' again. The snails are all over it.....

 

[DaveK]

... I had also consulted with the local LFS guy for how to initiate a cycle for a reef tank. He advocated not doing the ‘deli-shrimp’ as recommended on this site but suggested cycling the tank (as I had done with FOWLR) by adding starter fish (5 Green Chromis), nitrifying bacteria (Nitromax) and Feather Caulerpa for the refugium. ...

So, now my confidence is going. I’ve got this. I figure, maybe the LFS guy knows his stuff, let’s add something. ... I’m feeling pretty good but wondering if there’s a disaster looming? ...

I don't think you have to worry about a looming disaster. You have a few fish in a large tank.

However, In my opinion, any one that recommends using live fish, doesn't sell live rock, and gives you feather caulerpa sure is not up on state of the art SW aquarium systems. After all that, I wouldn't trust the guy.

I hate to say it, but there is still a lot of bad information still out there being passed around as gospel. Some of this is completely incorrect. Some is obsolete by todays standards. It's always best to run something your not sure about by the gang here first, and not trust the LFS until they have proven themselves.

 

[Oxylebius]

Do you know why it is not recommended to cycle the tank with a fish in it?

Did your lfs guy tell you that high ammonia levels burn the gills of fish and thus will have a shortened life span. It is inhuman to cycle tanks w/fish b/c it harms the fish. It done in the old days when we didn't know the harm it caused. There are other ways to cycle tanks.

 

[Bengyboy]

DaveK, Oxylebius

Thanks for the input, and I now better understand the reasoning behind the process for cycling a tank as recommended here vs what I used to do and what was recommended by the LFS. It's become obvious that I should consult with the experts before committing.

 

[Oxylebius]

Have you been monitoring your ammonia levels each day in the display tank (DT)? That can tell you how high the ammonia has gotten, thus how your fish have been affected.

Best to pull the fish out of the DT and have the tank cycle w/o them in it. Set up a QT for them or give them back to the lfs. If you set up a QT have Prime on hand to detoxify high levels (note: don't use Prime in the DT, it hinders test readings, and in the DT you want to monitor all levels to make sure you are building up a good bacteria population.) Prime is alright to use in QT to detoxify ammonia really fast. Always monitor ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels in both tanks.

The ammonia levels in your DT right now will be produced by the fish for the most part unless there is something dead on the live rock that is rotting and also producing ammonia. Testing the water will tell you where you are at in the cycling process. What are the ammonia, nitrite, and a nitrate levels?

When cycling a new DT you want to get the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels really high b/c this gives your bacteria lots of food to eat and allows the bacteria to grow in population, thus preparing your tank for livestock. By building up high levels of bacteria prepares the tank to house fish (who produce ammonia). Thus the cycle continues, more nitrogen food source you have, the more bacteria population you can grow, and the cycle continues.

You want to build up your bacteria population so that nitrogen compounds can be broken down and not build up in your system. Water changes will bring down the nitrates. New tanks don't have enough bacteria yet to break down the harmful ammonia and nitrite compounds fast enough and this is how fish get harmed. Once the tank is cycled adding fish slowly, one a month, allows the tank's bacteria population to grow and keep on top of breaking down the ammonia and nitrite compounds really fast so the fish (and inverts) won't be harmed.

When cycling w/dead shrimp you can reach some really high levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate (all of these compounds at high levels are harmful to fish and can kill them. Medium and lower levels weaken their immune system, which in term makes them susceptible to disease). Thus, it is best to not have fish in the tank during the cycling process. The shrimp cycling technique (and very high levels of ammonia levels) are a great way to kick-start the bacteria growth in new tanks (the bacteria will have lots of food (ammonia) to eat, thus they grow and populate). Nanoreef has a very nice diagram of the levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate that you will want to get to in the cycle, perhaps he will come by this thread and post it for us. Don't have fish in your tank if your levels are this high!

No one wants to start off a new tank with fish that have a weakened immune system or have burnt gills which makes it difficult to take oxygen into their bodies. We want to try to keep our fish disease free and healthy.

Thanks for checking back in w/us on your process, hopefully we can get those fish safe soon!

Good luck

 

[JimmyZ19]

I wouldn't go through all that trouble. The fish are in there now and it is going to be a PITA. Plus, do you have a cycled QT? If not then you are just doing the same thing. Sounds like to this point you are worrying about nothing. Sit back and enjoy your tank. Test PO4, NO3, KH, Ca and SG weekly.


90 Gallon Mixed Reef born on 24Nov12.

 

[ddelozier]

+1 to all above. Though cycling with fish is not my recommendation, it can be done. With such a small number of relatively tough fish, it is not a "Disaster" in the making. However, keep in mind, the bioload on the tank is very low for a 150, so when you DO chose to add anything else, detectable ammonia spikes are possible. The growth of bacteria stabilizes with the levels of ammonia production. you could have 500 lbs of rock in a 450g system, and the tank wont completely cycle untill its stocked more heavily. The advantage of using a shrimp is two fold. A) you dont risk killing fish. B) as the shrimp proceeds to decay, the levels of ammonia released increase, so the bacterial population increases with no further effort, just time. I've done it both ways, there's no right or wrong. In a 150g system, you wont be killing so few fish with ammonia, because its so diluted, the concentrations are never harmful. The flip side to that is, you wont get a large quantity of bacterial growth either, because so little ammonia is produced. It will be slower than using a few Shrimp. I cycled a 120g tank, with 150lbs rock, with 3 deli shrimp and a bacterial booster to get it started. It took 5 days before ammonia was visible, but then it went quite high. Lots of bacteria, lots of food. Down side is, for about 3 days there, the water had a distinct smell.

I too learned most of what i know about SW from the friendly folks here, and have endeavored to share what i've learned whenever asked. Lots of friendly helpful if bent people here. Nobody here will bash or abuse you for making a mistake, because well...we've all made our fair share. (Domino damsels were one of mine, got 5" across and was chasing other fish right out of the tank..they almost didnt make it down the toilet when i flushed em).

Patience is your friend, its the key to success in SW. Keeping SW is more about keeping water than fish.

Remember Cardinal RULE NUMBER ONE of Reef Sanctuary! We like pictures! The rest is easy.

 

[Oxylebius]

I misread your first post, I thought it said you started the project on 6/1, as in you are in your first week of cycling. Since you are on week 5, keep going forward, but measure your ammonia levels continuously after each fish is added to the tank. That way you will know if they are at levels that will harm your livestock. And it is completely possible, even in that large a tank, to have high levels of ammonia considering that something could have been dead in your live rock when it was first placed in the tank weeks ago. Were you testing your water throughout the cycle?

And don't flush fish down the toilet, that to is inhuman. Unless the fish is already dead, flushing it down the toilet slowly tears a fish apart while it is alive and salt water fish in fresh water also won't be able to breath. If there are organisms that you don't want in your tank call around to lfs to see if anyone will take them.

 

[Bengyboy]

I appreciate the continued input and support! Yes, pretty much daily I'm looking for a spike in my water parameters
but continue to record zeroes across the board. I did though, change the filter socks and 20 gallons of water this past weekend. Filter socks were pretty ugly, but still nothing in the skimmer. Additionally, nothing else has been added to the D/T nor do I plan to until the Q/T that was also started this weekend is complete. All residents are accounted for and appear happy. Will try to figure out how to add a couple of pictures since I'm now past the 5 post threshold.