Curing my DT of marine ich - questions for Lee

[mdbannister]

Hi! I'm new to the forum, and actually joined in hopes that Lee could help me. I read several of your EXCELLENT posts about marine ich and its cure, and now I am looking at trying to cure my DT. My only concern is that I have a large population, and I'm trying to figure out how large a QT I will need. There are also a couple of minor issues with hypo and a couple of my fish...as in I'm not sure how to pull it off. My live stock includes:

• Lawnmower blenny
• pair of occy clowns
• sebae clown
• 3 chromis
• watchman goby
• mandarin goby
• orange shoulder tang (juvi)
• bangaii cardinal
• purple pseudochromis

My DT doesn't currently have any fish that are showing MI symptoms, but there have been outbreaks in the past (resulting in the deaths of my kole tang and a blue hippo). I also had another pair of blue hippos that had ich...they passed bc they got stuck to powerheads after I had "cured" them of ich with a "reef safe" cure (I read your post, so I now know that they weren't cured). It's been a while (several months) since I've seen any outbreak, but I'm thinking I should cure the DT anyway in order to get beyond the ich life cycle. However, I have the following questions:

1. Should I go ahead and treat the whole group in a QT with hypo or wait to see if there are any symptoms before using hypo?
2. I know that standard info says that 8 weeks with no fish in DT is long enough...but I read something in your posts that said something about possibly up to 11 months... So should I QT for longer than 8 weeks??
3. How do I do hypo with a mandarin goby since he eats pods?
4. How large a tank should I use for QT? These are all together in a 75g currently...and I could put them in either a 29g or a 55g for QT.
5. Should all future fish that go into QT be automatically treated with hypo before being added to the DT?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

 

[mdbannister]

I just read Lee's goodbye post. I'm hoping he'll have time to help me before he goes, but it sounds like he's very busy. Does anyone have answers for my questions?

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[reefer gladness]

Hopefully Lee will be able to answer but I'll offer this. I wouldn't treat for ich if it's not present. All fish should go into QT for awhile to see if it has ich before adding to the display tank.

A UV sterilizer is not a cure for marine ich but it does help. I don't want to spread mis-information but I've seen it work firsthand in my tank with a minor outbreak.

And no offence intended but you're way overstocked for a 75g. I'd take the chromis and the tang back to the LFS. That tang grows over a foot long and is recommended for a minimum tanks size of 180g.

 

[mdbannister]

Thanks for the reply. I do want to say that my fish all seem quite happy in the 75g. I am currently planning an upgrade to a 180g. I do appreciate the parts of your reply that had to do with my questions, but i would also respectfully ask that you and anyone else who replies answer the questions I am asking rather than making livestock suggestions (unless they have to do with MI). Thanks.

 

[reefer gladness]

Why do fish get Cryptocaryon?

Cryptocaryon is a parasite, and like most parasites it is very prevalent in the environment of the species it normally infects. Therefore, most wild fish are exposed to low levels of this parasite fairly frequently and are able to effectively fight off the infection without becoming seriously ill. What happens in an aquarium fish, however, is very different than what happens in a wild fish. In the wild, the number of free-floating Cryptocaryon per 100 gallons of water is extremely small. Whereas in a home aquarium with a relatively small volume of water and a concentrated population of fish, the number of Cryptocaryon has the opportunity to explode into a number hundreds of times higher than what would ever be experienced in the wild. The other thing that happens in a home aquarium is that the level of stress has the potential to be much more severe than what is found in the wild.

Almost all marine aquarium fish are wild harvested, and in a period of several days their lives change dramatically. They go from living on the reef to being collected, handled, shipped, and re-handled repeatedly. When those fish finally enter the home aquarium, they are then subject to yet another change in water parameters, diet, temperature, and environment and may even be subject to aggression from existing tank mates. To say the least, these fish are severely stressed to the point that their immune system may not be functioning properly, making them very susceptible to infections and parasites like Cryptocaryon. In an existing tank in which the fish are healthy, the introduction of a new fish or a decrease in water quality or temperature fluctuations may stress the fish to the point that the Cryptocaryon protozoans that were present but not creating problems will then rapidly cause a more serious infection.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Reefer Gladness,

That was well said! I outline a condensed explanation of what you just described on my website as to why it is essential to QT every purchase. I spent a week in LA this past February at the main wholesalers around LAX and the stresses imparted on new arrivals is really high.

I posted a similar reply on RS to another poster who had a breakout of Ich with a PBT.

However, in your case if they are not showing any signs for several months you would likely be ahead of the curve by just keeping things as they are, but I certainly wouldn't add any livestock. If you tried to pull all those and battle the ammonia in a smaller QT for 9 weeks you may have more casualties then if you just kept the status quo.

Someone mentioned U/V and I'll add my .$02....I run a 57 watt U/V unit on my 180 FOWLR tank, but the flow is throttled back to under 170 GPH. I change the bulb every six months and clean the quartz sleeve once per month. Is it necessary since I ran fallow for 9 weeks and treated all the fish, I don't know, but I sleep better with it.

Most of the time people who run these little 9w and 18w U/V units run way to much flow and they are terribly undersized and useless.

Here is what I added on the other post about curing Ich.

The lifecycle of Ich has been documented thoroughly and proper treatment IS almost fool proof. I too had to do the same thing last February to my 180 after I added an infected angel fish. ( I mistakenly thought the 8" show size blue girdled angel was too big to QT in a 40G and would stress less in the 180...dumb move.) It ran fallow for 9 weeks and all fish were treated for 4 weeks with Cupramine and then two doses of Prazipro. My tank has been Ich free ever since and all the fish have grown and get along very well.

I currently keep 3 QT tanks cycled and running all the time and MY personal fish get a 6-8 week QT no matter what. I even QT Inverts, LR and anything that can have a free swimming tomite attached.

However, I can very seldom convince my service customers to do an effective QT treatment. This is America where people want everything RIGHT NOW, including seeing that blue hippo tang swimming in their reef ten minutes after they get home.

We had a big thread going last year on our local forum about who does a QT like me and who takes steps to manage the Ich. The results were split with about 30-40% actually curing the disease and the rest trying to feed well and reduce stresses.

There is no doubt that those trying to manage the parasite are only a power failure, temp swing, or new addition away from a severe outbreak again. I have seen tanks go for months after an Ich outbreak was "beaten back" but surviving and being optimal are two different things.

I like my fish healthy and spot free every day.

You will save yourself a lot of heartache after your 9 weeks is over.

You may have a very hard time QT your mandarin like you asked. On the bright side I have not seen one show signs of Ich in my firsthand experience. Some fish like lions and mandarins seem less likely to be suitable hosts for the parasite.

Larry

 

[mdbannister]

Thanks I definitely plan to qt from now on (something I hadn't done before). My main question was whether or not to try and run the system with no fish in order to get the ich out of the system. I think you're saying that it's not necessary at this point--I would just need to qt if there were any new fish added.

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[ReefFrenzy]

MdBannister,

What I tried to imply was that if you ever had Ich in your system, then you still have it. It is very likely your current fish have beaten back that last out break and are currently slightly resistant. However, even if you QT a new fish and rid it of any parasites, when you drop that bad boy in your tank there can likely be another outbreak when your current fish stress out from the new "bully" or new neighbor.

If you want to 100% cure it, pull everything and run fallow for 9 weeks. That is a 99% proven timeframe, from my readings.

In my opinion if it was my system, I would leave it as is, but I would not add any fish either. Risk verses reward....and you have a nice stock list already.
Larry

BTW- I have an orange shoulder tang in my 180 and he uses every bit of that tank to swim. Try and get your 180 set up and when you do, transfer all your LR and sand over to the new tank and leave the current fish behind in the 75. Then use the 75 as your QT and dose copper.

 

[mdbannister]

MdBannister,

What I tried to imply was that if you ever had Ich in your system, then you still have it. It is very likely your current fish have beaten back that last out break and are currently slightly resistant. However, even if you QT a new fish and rid it of any parasites, when you drop that bad boy in your tank there can likely be another outbreak when your current fish stress out from the new "bully" or new neighbor.

If you want to 100% cure it, pull everything and run fallow for 9 weeks. That is a 99% proven timeframe, from my readings.

In my opinion if it was my system, I would leave it as is, but I would not add any fish either. Risk verses reward....and you have a nice stock list already.
Larry

BTW- I have an orange shoulder tang in my 180 and he uses every bit of that tank to swim. Try and get your 180 set up and when you do, transfer all your LR and sand over to the new tank and leave the current fish behind in the 75. Then use the 75 as your QT and dose copper.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. That's actually my plan at this point. I won't be adding anything else to the 75, and I'll use the 75 for the qt for 9 weeks once the system is set up with everything else (inverts, lr, sand, etc.) in the 180.

This brings us to my next question. How hard is it to qt a mandarin goby? pods obviously won't survive the ich treatment (and would be difficult to maintain in qt anyway, right?).

 

[PSU4ME]

I'll probably get beat for saying this but I will anyway.

I plan to get a mandarin and i don't plan to QT it. They very rarely get ich due to the makeup of their tough skin....similar to wrasses. Find a healthy one in a store (or buy from a reputable online store) and you should be ok. What I will do is probably buy a bag of pods from reefcleaners......."holding tank" the mandarin for 1-2 weeks while feeding pods and LRF just to make sure he is healthy.....then in he goes!

 

[BigAl07]

Bryan I think that's a good idea with that fish. At least you're going to have a good "observation" period.

 

[mdbannister]

Do you guys hypo or treat all fish that go into quarantine? If I start qting my fish for 8 weeks, I should be able to see anything by that time, right?

 

[leebca]

Absoltuely no reason to treat healthy fishes. I don't recommend any treatment of newly acquired fishes except for de-worming (and for some species, specific treatment). 6 weeks is plenty of time for the fish to display more than 99% of their 'common' ailments, IF the quarantine process was followed (e.g., correct sized aquarium).

 

[mdbannister]

Thanks Lee.

I've been going through your stickies one by one to get a better handle on how to go about a lot of things. I was considering myself somewhat of an intermediate hobbyist...then I started reading your stickies and realized that i still don't know very much. LOL I actually just got through reading the acclimation stickie about 10 minutes ago.

My plan at this point is to watch for and treat any ICH outbreaks during the next month or so while I finish getting the equipment together for my upgrade. I'll then be treating the whole community for ICH with hypo before transferring them to the 180. I'll be using my current live rock and substrate in the new setup, so I'll let that tank run fallow for 9 weeks. (I'm still trying to decide what to do with my mandarin goby during that time...I know they don't get ICH typically, but I figure it's pretty much impossible to run the tank "fallow" with the mandarin swimming around in there. I may just sell him and buy again later on...or I may try and set up a small tank for him that I can take down after the tank runs fallow.)

I'll set up a qt from that point on to qt any new additions for 6 weeks.