Cupramine in DT...

[Aquanoob]

Hi everyone, my name is Charlie and I am new to the hobby. I will try to make this post as extensive as possible so that I may fully explain my situation. First and foremost, I did research prior to starting up my FOWLR tank, but obviously not nearly as much as I should have. One of those hindsight is 20/20 things. Once I get out of this mess I will definitely be using a QT for any newcomers to my tank. So here's the scoop...

I have a 120g acrylic aquarium that I purchased used. It came with what I would guess is around 100lbs of LR (after reading leebca's post on LR, I'm not sure exactly how live it is). I cycled the tank and began slowly adding fish. About six months in and everything seemed fine. For Christmas I received two more fish (I currently have 2 clowns, a blue tang, a yellow tang, a spotted puffer, a niger trigger, and an emperor angel). A few days later I noticed signs of ich and/or marine velvet. I have read extensively about both but being new to this hobby am having trouble distinguishing between the two. A couple of my fish have small "rigid" spots that I believe to be MI, but then a couple have little white spots that seem "fuzzier". All fish are eating fine and seem active, but the ones that are showing signs of infection do flash occasionally. I am hoping that I caught this at an early stage and that I can eradicate any parasites from my system. Which is why I have chosen to perform a Cupramine treatment.

After reading for hours about how to treat this. I realized that a hospital tank would be proper method for treatment. However, a few things still concern me. I cannot reasonably obtain a tank much larger than 40-50 gallons. Most of my fish are small, 1-2" but a couple are around 3-4". I am gone for 10-12 hours a day during the week. I don't want to stick them in such a small tank with basically no significant filtration present and come home from work to find they have all died from an ammonia spike. Even if they do make it through the copper treatment, I feel like 8-10 weeks of confinement in such a tank while the DT clears up couldn't be too healthy for the fish.

So this morning I read more about Cupramine and Cuprisorb. The information was directly from the manufacturers website. Seachem seems to be regarded as one of the more trustworthy labels in the hobby, but I don't want to blindly trust their word. This brings me here, asking all you experienced aquarists for your opinions. Based on what I read, I am considering removing my snails, crabs, LR, and even sand, and then treating my fish directly in the DT. The FAQ for Cupramine states that it does not significantly destroy nitrifying bacteria like most other copper treatments. If this is true, treating the fish in my DT should help me keep a better water quality for the fish versus putting them in a small, un-established hospital tank. It would also likely stress them much less. The next part of my plan would be to allow my LR and everything else to sit in a holding tank for 8-10 months to ensure any parasites die off before adding it all back to the DT. As for the removal of cu from the DT, I was considering Cuprisorb. The manufacturer claims that it can remove copper from a system and eventually make it reef safe again. I was thinking that after the Cupramine treatment, I would replace filters and bioballs, and then use Cuprisorb and carbon for a couple of months before once again adding the LR, sand, and inverts. IF the copper has been effectively removed.

I am currently running a FOWLR tank but would eventually like to consider corals, so don't really want to ruin the tank for future use. I have read other people's experience doing something similar to this, but it seems most of them left the LR and substrate in the tank which caused most of the problems. If you really want to help (and I thank you very much for even taking the time to read this really long post) I encourage you to read the brief FAQ on both of these products and tell me what you think.

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/CupriSorb.html

I was all set to stick the fish in a 40-50g tank for a couple of months because I thought that the copper would kill off my nitrifying bacteria, making my DT no different than a brand new QT, but based on the manufacturers claim that may not be the case. The other main issue was "tainting" my DT with copper permanently, but by removing all of my carbonates and using Cuprisorb and carbon in the end, I am now wondering if this route may actually be feasible.

Thanks again for your time and I am sorry that I rambled on forever, I just felt it would be easier in the long run for anyone who really wants to help me if they knew ALL the details!

 

[PSU4ME]

Hi Charlie,
Tough situation here and i'll give you my advice. If you're removing everything from your tank then I would suggest you try hyposalinity versus cupramine. Adding copper to your tank will cause you issues in the future in terms of coral and inverts. It will seep into everything and seep back out over time...I would avoid using it in the DT if I were you.

Another option - can you take all your fish to a LFS? Some places have tanks established to treat them in - this might be easier as you could let your tank run fallow then. A 2 week cupramine schedule and then to the LFS might work as well. Starting over (as in getting rid of the fish) might be your easiest route considering your work schedule. If you do treat with cupamine, you should perform daily water changes in the QT aimed at removing waste which will greatly help the water quality.

 

[ziggy]

So you would also remove all the sand base from your DT?

Would any filtration equipment be exposed to the copper? And if so any confidance it would be cleaned out after the treatment?

 

[Aquanoob]

Hi Charlie,
Tough situation here and i'll give you my advice. If you're removing everything from your tank then I would suggest you try hyposalinity versus cupramine. Adding copper to your tank will cause you issues in the future in terms of coral and inverts. It will seep into everything and seep back out over time...I would avoid using it in the DT if I were you.

Another option - can you take all your fish to a LFS? Some places have tanks established to treat them in - this might be easier as you could let your tank run fallow then. A 2 week cupramine schedule and then to the LFS might work as well. Starting over (as in getting rid of the fish) might be your easiest route considering your work schedule. If you do treat with cupamine, you should perform daily water changes in the QT aimed at removing waste which will greatly help the water quality.

Thanks for the advice! I considered hypo but understood that it only treats MI and wanted to use copper to make sure it eliminates any other possible parasites. I didn't think of resorting to giving them to my LFS but I am going there in a little bit and may ask them if they do that, thanks for the suggestion. I would just hate to give up on them so quickly, not to mention they did cost quite a bit of $$$.

 

[reefle]

I would personally not use the DT for any sorts of copper or cupramine. I think 7 fish in a 50-55 gallon would be fine for 8 weeks provided you give them lots of PVC to hide in.

The only thing is water maintenance. I would do what PSU said and look at your LFS to see if they can help out first

 

[Aquanoob]

"So you would also remove all the sand base from your DT?

Would any filtration equipment be exposed to the copper? And if so any confidance it would be cleaned out after the treatment?"

Yeah I was thinking about removing the sand and LR both. I'd have nothing but a bare bottom and some PVC for shelter. I know that would be removing a huge chunk of bio filtration but thought it might be better than sticking the fish in a smaller tank with nothing but a sponge filter or a HOB.

My current setup is a drilled overflow, which drains into a wet/dry sump with bio-balls (I have recently began to read the pros and cons of bio-balls but that's another story), with a protein skimmer in the sump, and then a UV filter. All of it would be exposed to the copper (Seachem states the protein skimmer is ok to use during treatment). I don't really have any confidence that it will all be properly cleaned out after the treatment. I was hoping that what Seachem stated about their two products was true and that I could filter it all out over a couple of months while I waited to replace my rocks and substrate. I would also replace the sponge in the drip pan above the bio-balls and the bio-balls themselves. Basically I was wondering if any of you have had any experience with using both products or if you had any strong opinions for or against my idea.

 

[Aquanoob]

I would personally not use the DT for any sorts of copper or cupramine. I think 7 fish in a 50-55 gallon would be fine for 8 weeked provided you give them lots of PVC to hide in.

The only thing is water maintenance. I would do PSU said and look at your LFS to see if they can help out first

I sort of expected this to be the general consensus. Yeah the water quality is my main concern doing it this way. With my work schedule I just hope things don't go awry while I'm away.

Regarding the LFS, are you guys basically saying to get rid of the fish, or are you saying that some LFS might actually treat them for you (for a price, obviously) and return them when all is well???

 

[PSU4ME]

To me, it seems treating the fish (and the process of doing that) is your biggest issue so one way to solve it is to get rid of the fish if you're open to it. Heck, if you're giving them away people may be open to taking them and QT'ing them if they have the proper setup.

If you're really attached to them, then you can look for assistance from the LFS. They may treat and hold them for you if you want them back or they may just take them off you're hands and give you a credit.

You can also remove the stuff from your DT and do hypo which would treat the fish and the DT at the same time. I would suggest getting a top off system to help stabalize the salinity to make your life easier.

Other ways would be to ensure the fish are fat and happy and role the dice that they can fight it off.......you can also install a UV sterlizer to assist (not solve) the problem.

 

[DaveK]

Here is the bottom line. Never ever treat the display tank to deal with a fish disease. Always use a quarantine tank. Period. This goes double if your are going to treat with a copper compound.

Don't make the mistake of trying to do things differently. Many have ended up with very dead livestock.

Don't expect a LFS to be much help here. Many will not take fish back for any reason. They sure will not take anything back to treat it for disease.

 

[Reef Commando]

This may work for you, although I was a bit sceptical about the treatment.

The only reason why I deem it to not be a wind up is because it came from one of the UK's leading (all be it retired) reef keepers. He was at the forefront of reef keeping right from the early days and has influenced and taught many people including the owners of some of the UKs finest reef aquariums.

Don't just run a UV steriliser but you run two of them. return water into first then out of it into the second and then back into the tank. The only problem is that I am getting old, I saw him early this year and I can't remember if he said to angle the UV backwards or forwards. Apparently they work better when slightly off level.

Flow within the tank needs to be turbulent and therefore requires more power heads.


If you read this tomorrow then I saw him last year lol..........Don't want you thinking I can't remember more than a day!

 

[reefer gladness]

This may work for you, although I was a bit sceptical about the treatment.

The only reason why I deem it to not be a wind up is because it came from one of the UK's leading (all be it retired) reef keepers. He was at the forefront of reef keeping right from the early days and has influenced and taught many people including the owners of some of the UKs finest reef aquariums.

Don't just run a UV steriliser but you run two of them. return water into first then out of it into the second and then back into the tank. The only problem is that I am getting old, I saw him early this year and I can't remember if he said to angle the UV backwards or forwards. Apparently they work better when slightly off level.

Flow within the tank needs to be turbulent and therefore requires more power heads.


If you read this tomorrow then I saw him last year lol..........Don't want you thinking I can't remember more than a day!

Gotta say I'm more than a little skeptical about this claim. If beating ich was as simple as dosing UV it would have taken over the industry a long time ago. Running two UV unit's won't accomplish any more than running 1 unit with twice the UV exposure. Putting them on an slant to improve performance sounds like pure wishful thinking. The UV bulb does need to be cleaned and replaced on a regular basis to stay at peak performance so maybe this guy is counting on detritus to accumulate at one end or the other but in my experience running a UV sterilizer it wouldn't make one bit of difference because the flow through the unit doesn't allow detritus to build up in the first place.

Note, I'm not saying UV sterilizers won't help. In fact that's part of the reason I continue to run a UV sterilizer - as a deterrent to MI, but I would never go so far as to say it's a cure for MI.

 

[Reef Commando]

I can see how the two UV might be an advantage over the single unit. What one misses the other picks up on would probably be the theory on it.

In hindsight I wish I had spoken in length with him about it. He had only popped into the shop as he is now retired.

The turbulent flow I can understand. In fact I could understand even further if this was all combined with just a bare bottomed tank with no rock in it.

Time wise I haven't a clue if this is a quick....ish remedy or needs to be kept up for months.

There are people with extremely large tanks who do treat in this way, though. Maybe the infected fish do die but it keeps the outbreak down to a point of minimal damage. Ideal when you have a 12000L tank and therefore are unable to transfer over 100 fish into a hospital tank to treat with copper.

 

[PSU4ME]

Dave - if he is taking everything but the fish out of the DT, is hypo a bad idea?

 

[Aquanoob]

Thanks for all of the input everyone. I am convinced to try and do it right. I purchased a 40g tank and will be attempting to move my fish into there tonight or tomorrow. I will then commence in treating them with Cupramine. Another question... I have read that using a sponge filter in the hospital tank is best, but given that I won't be able to perform more than 1 water change per day during the week, would anyone advise that I use a HOB with a non-carbon filter instead?

 

[Reef Commando]

Hang on the back will be fine if it is rated for that sized tank.

You are right about a filter without carbon.......you don't run carbon when treating with copper.

Research into ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. You will be surprised at what sort of high levels the fish will cope with. Also observe the fish for symptoms of suffering or still coping with these high levels. Water changes every day will mean you are weakening the copper level on a daily basis too and then having to adjust it daily.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

Looks like you are getting some great advise ... here wishing you the best of luck, I think you made a good decision !

to ReefSanctuary, a real Sanctuary of reef forums, with lots of very nice members

 

Start a new tank thread & share your tank with us so we can follow along - we love pics

 

[ziggy]

I can see how the two UV might be an advantage over the single unit. What one misses the other picks up on would probably be the theory on it.

In hindsight I wish I had spoken in length with him about it. He had only popped into the shop as he is now retired.

The turbulent flow I can understand. In fact I could understand even further if this was all combined with just a bare bottomed tank with no rock in it.

Time wise I haven't a clue if this is a quick....ish remedy or needs to be kept up for months.

There are people with extremely large tanks who do treat in this way, though. Maybe the infected fish do die but it keeps the outbreak down to a point of minimal damage. Ideal when you have a 12000L tank and therefore are unable to transfer over 100 fish into a hospital tank to treat with copper.

On a very basic level, think of UV as "limited Sterilizing Energy". It only REDUCES risk but not eliminates it.
The Bulb must be clean and Newer to provide the advertised level of energy AND the flow must NOT exceed the max flow rating.
It actually nukes more of the junk in the water flow by setting the flow rate on the low end of it's rating.
The water particles closest to the tube, for the rated exposure time duration (slow Flow) alters (but does not destroy) the "stuff"

There will always be "junk" particles (ich, etc), inside the DT that did not go through the UV unit

 

[PSU4ME]

Charlie,
Glad you are going to do it right! Here is what I do - get that tank set up and transfer the fish. I would use a sponge filter and some large PVC pieces all cleaned. You can use a hob with floss but that only provides flow and the floss slightly cleans the water. The sponge filter provides a place for beneficial bacteria to grow. I would put the sponge in your sump or tank ASAP and let the bacteria build. The cupramine will hamper it and possibly kill some of it of but from my experience, my water params stayed very decent during treatments.

Get a salifert CU test and the cupramine and follow the directions. Half dose first then another to bring the concentration to .5 like Lee's article says. Put a water mark on the tank when you first fill it, this way you'll know how much top off water to use to keep the salinity. I created a contraption that helped me clean the waste out daily and used the least amount of water. Simple airline hose with the hard "RO type" hose on the end. I used that to suck the crap out. I also find out how much cupramine I needed to get a 5g bucket of freshly mixed SW to the medicated concentration of .5. I mix that and use that to replace what I suck out each day and then do a full 5g change on the weekend and I never had a problem!

I would suggest feeding your fish a lot 1-2 days before transfer so they are fat and happy as copper can make them lose their appetite for a bit. I try to keep my feedings very clean in the qt, no selcon, Zoe or any other additives that can foul the water while the 2 week treatment is underway. After that you can because you'll be doing more water changes.

Use the sponge filter because after the copper is removed, it will be where your bacteria regrows.

Make certain you don't get any cross contamination from your main tank. Keep things separate, can't stress that enoughg.

Good luck