clown fish deaths 1 always lives

[halo2rain]

Ok so im new to the hobby first time on this forum posting. Been reading it for about a year before I got the tank (I do ALOT of research before I get into something like this) but let me get into my problem and its not a mantis shrimp I always find the bodies and take them out

Hi guys my aquariums is as follows (sorry if my spelling is wrong on anything)
75gallon set up for about 2 months now
about 80+/- lbs live rock
60lbs live sand
fluval 405 canister filter
seaclone 100g skimmer 
temp 78-80 bad heater need a new one (temp fluctuation is not bad it just creeps up and down over a week or so never above or below those two though
48" odyssea t5ho lights 2 10k 2 actinic

Params
1.021 sg 
0 amonia
0 nitrites
5-10 nitrates
15g water change every 2 weeks
fish list
1 snowflake occelaris 2" +/-
1 lawnmower blennie
1 neon dottyback
1 six-line wrasse
1 diamond watchman goby (sits at bottom eats sand all day) lfs said thats what it was but heard theres two different ones that look like that
1 neon goby

inverts
1 skunk cleaner shrimp
assortment of turbo astreous and 2 other kinds of snails
I think they are blue legged hermit crabs maybe 10 to 20 they come in as hitch hikers I bout maybe 5 and they either hitchhiked or made behbehs lol
and one 2" bubbletip anemone its been in there for about 3 weeks now originally got it for the clowns but then it moved to the very back of the tank where I didnt want it like they tend to do so I hear lol

anyways my problem is ive had the tank running for about 2 months now since may 26 2014
I started out with 2 clowns after the tank got done cycleing the first time no fish just a table shrimp in it for a week then out one clown died due to second cycle is what lfs told me I added 2 domino damsels and the neon dottyback 1 damsel died in first 24h second damsel died 1w later added lawnmower blennie and sixline wrasse 6 line jumped out and died 2 days after I got it cause I forgot to put lid back on added another one and the diamond watchman goby added another clown it lived about a week and was doing fine then died added another clown it died added another clown it died 
went to one of my buddies hes been doing marine for about 12 yrs he told me that my clown might just be really aggressive and killing my other clowns so he told me hed give me store credit if I bought a pair of clowns from his tank so I did that I get them put them in my tank 4 days later one of them kicked the bucket now im back to having just one clown again and all other fish are still alive

But here is clown types all occelaris that have died
1 false percula
1 misbar false percula
1 extreme misbar false percula (almost a naked clown only had a tiny bit of a white spot on its gill maybe a 1/4" wasnt ick either lol
1 snowflake clown

im sorry this is so long but I really want a clownfish couple dont care if they breed just want a pair of them and a anemone for them I know clown/anemone hosting takes time but I think its cool to watch 

also acclimation procedures ive tried have been 
Float and drip then transfer fish only
float and drip then pour bucket into tank
float then transfer
Float then pour bag into tank 

what im trying to figure out is why only one of my clowns dies even when I put them in as a pair and the other one doesnt is there anything I can do that im not doing to prevent this or am I doing this properly and its just the fish being weak and stressed to badly to the point of deathand sorry if this should be put somewhere else I couldnt find a clown only section so I figured itd go good here lol

 

[Oxylebius]

So, you provided a list of fish, then proceeded to tell us about fish that died, but these fish that died are also in the fish list. So, do you have that many fish in the tank currently, or is that list the list you tried to keep and all are now dead? If you have that list of fish in the tank right now, it is a fully stocked tank for one that is very young.

At two months old, you should have one, maybe two fish total in it. Stocking one fish a month after that allows the bacterial level in the tank to build up to be able to hold that many fish.

Again, the tank is too young for a anemone. Keeping them in young tanks are very tough to do. Most end up dying.

What were your water parameters each time a fish died? Did you test each time?

You also mention temp fluctuations, how much fluctuation in a 24 hour period?

I don't understand your acclimation either: float, drip, fish only into tank I understand, but what is the rest of it you mention? Why are you adding bucket of water and bag of water to the tank? This may be another issue here.

It sounds like it isn't the same clown that dies each time, so it is not like one clown is always surviving and killing the other. So, the issue isn't with the clowns. The issue is much larger.

 

[Jasper McNoobin]

It sounds like it isn't the same clown that dies each time

Those Zombie clowns... gotta zap 'em in the head or they just keep a comin'.... .. .. .. ..TAXI!!! :tongue:

 

[DianaKay]

Sorry for all your fish losses
But Hello and :welcomera WELCOME to Reef Sanctuary
I hope you share enough more of your info that you can get off to a better start.
I agree with Oxylebius that for a 2 month old tank you should only have introduced no more than a couple of fish. You will continue to cause your tank to cycle by adding more bio-load than your good bacteria can handle.
Take the SLOW DOWN advice and you will have more success.
We all continue to learn here & you will also so keep posting & we'll keep trying to you.
Very BEST WISHES :biker

 

[halo2rain]

So the fish that are living right now are1 snowflake occelaris 2" +/-
1 lawnmower blennie
1 neon dottyback
1 six-line wrasse
1 diamond watchman goby (sits at bottom eats sand all day) lfs said thats what it was but heard theres two different ones that look like that
1 neon goby

The 4 clowns that I mentioned are the ones that have died. I took the one original clownfish to the pet store and had it traded for the pair of snowflakes one of the snowflakes has since died
the 2 clownfish that I had originally i could tell them apart cause the lines are different on them and from the point of the first clownfish dieing I got dfferent looking ones the colors were way different so I could tell them apart
but I checked the water parameters before adding fish its always at 0 for amonia and nitrites my nitrates are usually at 5-10 if a fish dies I havent gone out and just bought another fish and plopped it in that same day its usually been days inbetween and I have been checking my params about once a day if not twice a day since the one died nothing ever changes I have taken my water to 3 lfs one my wife works at and 1 where my buddy works at all are always the same 0 am and 0 nitrites 5-10 nitrates so its not the parameters sg has been checked with 2 different refractometers and 3 different swing arms tell me if you need any more info on my tank parameters it very well might be zombie fishes needing brains my house is haunted lol

 

[jrose323]

Halo, Sorry to hear about your challenges thus far after coming into the hobby. One recommendation I have for you is you never want to add the water you receive with your fish from the LFS to your tanks as that water could have some unwanted contaminants which could kill your entire livestock. Not to mention, that water is typically high in ammonia by the time you get the livestock home and acclimated. The acclimation process that I use is as follows.

1. Turn QT or DT lights off (Less stress on the new fish during acclimation)
2. Float bag in QT or DT or sump (If you have the space) for 15-30 minutes until the water temp of the bag water is equal to that of your tank.
3. Pour bag with fish & water into acclimation bucket (gently of course)
4. If I mail order my livestock or have had them in the bag for a long period of time, I will typically add an ammonia neutralizing product to the bucket as the ammonia will be high in the bag water.
5. Begin drip acclimation with 2-4 drops per second from QT or DT
6. Once the quantity of the water doubles, I discard half of the water and begin the drip acclimation again with 2-4 drops per second.
7. After water doubles for a second time, I remove the livestock only and place into QT for about a month. If all looks good, I run this process all over again to transfer to my DT from the QT.

If you do not have a QT (which I highly recommend so you do not introduce ICK or other issues to your tank due to an unhealthy fish), you can introduce the fish to your DT.

As mentioned earlier as well, I would only add 1 fish a month...At most 2 fish to allow your good bacteria to catch up to the waste being generated in the tank by that new fish. This will prevent spikes in your water parameters.

 

[reefer gladness]

I strongly agree with the advice given above. Considering how many losses you've had already you should absolutely be quarantining your fish. The fish with white spots may not have had ick but it had something, probably brooks - they don't call it clownfish disease for nothing.

Adding water from the fish store is not a good idea. Many fish stores dose large quantities of copper in their fish-only systems. Speaking of fish-only systems, the salinity at 1.021 would be good for a FOWLR tank but a reef tank will do better in the 1.024 to 1.026 range. Salinity is not the issue with your fish but could be one of many factors affecting the nem.

I'm worried about the nem, your tank is much too young for any type of anemone and it's clearly unhappy. Yes, nems will occasionally pout - it's pretty rare in my experience though and I noticed the 'pouting' behavior when my tank was young. Now that my tank is aged and stable my nems never pout. Keep an eye on it and remove it immediately if it starts to deteriorate. The body of a dead nem is like jello in water so you'll do well to have a turkey baster on hand to suck out the pieces if it comes to that.

 

[halo2rain]

Those are usually the steps that I do minus 6 and 7 I let the 5 gallon bucket fill up half way then I take the fish out and put it in my dt I dont have a qt tank and what optimal qt tank size ive been thinking about getting one

I used to just pour the bucket of water with lfs water and fish back into tank I have stopped doing that and just put the fish in the tank now
but what could be causing my clownfish to die

 

[halo2rain]

What do you mean by my anemone is pouting?

 

[DaveK]

It seems all your clowns are the same species, even though they have different colors and patterns. The other advice is good, but you could also have a problem with your existing clown killing it's new tank mates. Also the neon dottyback and 6 line wrasse can sometime be very aggressive. If you add another clown, keep an eye on those fish too.

Many clowns available at LFS are in poor shape, and all of them should be quarantined in a separate tank and checked carefully for disease.

I would return the anemone to your LFS, or sell it or give it away. With a new tank, it's likely to have problems. Anemones need well established tanks and good light and good filtration.

Long term, you may want to upgrade some equipment.

The canister filter is really too small for a reef system. In addition, canister filters are not usually a good choice on a reef system. Because of the way they work, they tend to become massive dirt traps, and nitrate factories. They also tend to become big oxygen consumers. Since you have one, clean it weekly to prevent these problems.

The SeaClone skimmer is a product that I just can't say enough bad stuff about. After owning one, my advice to anyone that has one is to replace it with something worthy of your tank. Then take the sea clone outside and smash it to bits, so that this abomination is not inflicted upon some unsuspecting reef keeper. And, yes, that's exactly what I did with mine.

 

[DianaKay]

Just wanna tell ya halo2rain... DaveK tells it like he sees it & he is usually spot ON with giving us good advice.
He doesn't usually sugar coat anything tho :laughroll

 

[halo2rain]

I was planning on getting a reef octopus rated for 300g and putting it in the 20L refugium that im currently building what kind of filtration system should I get instead of the can filter what equipment should I upgrade I was also planning on buying a radion pro 2 led set up 2 of them for the 75 and then upgrade the tank to a 90g later

a little background I bought filter tank stand lots of filter media skimmer heaters like 5 of them and 3 petco powerheads and half 5g bucket of instant ocean for 200$ so I thought I did good on that I guess not lol oh and the lights I got for 75$

 

[Oxylebius]

Those are usually the steps that I do minus 6 and 7 I let the 5 gallon bucket fill up half way then I take the fish out and put it in my dt I dont have a qt tank and what optimal qt tank size ive been thinking about getting one
I used to just pour the bucket of water with lfs water and fish back into tank I have stopped doing that and just put the fish in the tank now

but what could be causing my clownfish to die

Lots of good advice provided here by others.

Keep in mind there are a number of things that may be causing each of the clowns you lost to die. We may not be able to get to one single answer as a reason for the deaths. There may be different reasons for each death.

So, let me get this straight - you had one clownfish that killed three others that you tried to pair with it. Then you traded that one clown for a pair of snowflakes. One of those snowflakes died. Thus the four dead clowns?

The first clown may have well been super aggressive and didn't end up pairing well. You never mentioned the size of any of the fish (the original or the one you were trying to pair with it) and you didn't mention if you saw the clown beating up the other clown(s) (this does happen). But, we can't rule out harassment from other fish or disease here either.

As for the snowflakes. With the info you provided there is no way to say for sure what happened to the one that died. If they were already paired and they were getting along then it could have been harassment from other fish, acclimation issues, or disease.

 

[DaveK]

Just wanna tell ya halo2rain... DaveK tells it like he sees it & he is usually spot ON with giving us good advice.
He doesn't usually sugar coat anything tho :laughroll

Thanks. My thoughts about the product in question come from direct personal experience. Over the years I have come across about 8 products that were so bad that they should never be used and the manufacturer should be ashamed of themselves for bringing the product on the market.

As for not sugar coating anything, I actually try not to write nasty posts. Once and awhile, we do have someone new here, and regretfully they need to be told that they purchased all the wrong equipment and/or livestock and fixing things is going to require a lot of time and money.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

to ReefSanctuary, a real Sanctuary of reef forums, with lots of very nice members

Start a new tank thread & share your tank with us so we can follow along - we love pics

The great members of RS will help you have sw success, feel free to ask any questions & you won't get flamed as you learn - just good advise that many times lfs don't tell you. We all started a square one & with wisdom of others sometimes we don't have to lean the hard way, joining RS is one of the best things you can do for your tank.

 

[halo2rain]

So yeah I think that what was killing them was my heater its got condensation in it and I think it was shocking them and stressing them out so now it is out and I will see what happens now

 

[Andy]

It seems all your clowns are the same species, even though they have different colors and patterns. The other advice is good, but you could also have a problem with your existing clown killing it's new tank mates. Also the neon dottyback and 6 line wrasse can sometime be very aggressive. If you add another clown, keep an eye on those fish too.

Many clowns available at LFS are in poor shape, and all of them should be quarantined in a separate tank and checked carefully for disease.


I would return the anemone to your LFS, or sell it or give it away. With a new tank, it's likely to have problems. Anemones need well established tanks and good light and good filtration.

Long term, you may want to upgrade some equipment.

The canister filter is really too small for a reef system. In addition, canister filters are not usually a good choice on a reef system. Because of the way they work, they tend to become massive dirt traps, and nitrate factories. They also tend to become big oxygen consumers. Since you have one, clean it weekly to prevent these problems.

The SeaClone skimmer is a product that I just can't say enough bad stuff about. After owning one, my advice to anyone that has one is to replace it with something worthy of your tank. Then take the sea clone outside and smash it to bits, so that this abomination is not inflicted upon some unsuspecting reef keeper. And, yes, that's exactly what I did with mine.

dave k i want you to comment on my posts. i need some harsh but true words!

 

[DaveK]

dave k i want you to comment on my posts. i need some harsh but true words!

Someday, maybe for April fools day, I'm going to have to post a comment something like this - (all in fun)

That is the ugliest tank I've ever seen, and the equipment is stuff I wouldn't use to keep a goldfish .... and so on.

 

[Snid]

I don't know how I missed this thread, but I see it now.

First off... Welcome Aboard, Matey!

Now onto the biz... Take no offense to anything said from me or anyone else, we're all here to help. Most things that can be said, have been said. I'll try to hit a few gaps.

One of the reasons why Oxy mentions that it is difficult to tell what caused the deaths is because in this particular setup, there is a lot thrown in a very young tank a bit early. Had a slower approach been taken, problem solving might have been easier. There are many fish, some aggressive, in very young system. To put things into perspective, my tank is only 4 months old and I only have 3 fish, though I could add one more. Some fish are not recommended for new tanks until they are well over a year old.

One thing that I think people are thinking but are afraid to touch is how the LFS have been offering support. I think the fear stems mostly from the fact that you mention a friend who has been doing Marine tanks for 12 years, a buddy at a LFS (maybe the same guy), and your wife working at another. I think people are afraid to go against them as they are most likely going to be the voice of reason you'll turn to first and foremost. I know I would if I were in your shoes.

The fact that you are asking questions here shows that you want to get things right and you are concerned about some of the advice you've been given.

LFS vary from place to place, and have different approaches to things. Often times their approaches are fueled by the things that make them the most money over time. Those who work at LFS are trained in generally specific approaches that may or may not be the best option, but are ones that have worked in many cases. Training is streamlined as much as possible because of high turn around and the employment of youth willing to work for less initially. LFS can push things to the limit because they aren't emotionally invested in the fish that pass through their doors. If they were, they'd have massive QT tanks hiding in the back that we wouldn't see and that's where all their new shipments would go. Almost every LFS just gets big shipments and drops those fish into their sales tanks, that are most likely treated with copper (and other stuff) as reefer mentioned. The survivors sell, the others die and get tossed in a trash bin. There are many deaths at the LFS...

It also seems to me that with such inspirational influences around you, it's too easy to look at the tanks they have or work with and want it right now for yourself, without the wait. Experience doesn't make a tank any more mature. Tanks have to go through phases of development, and your tank is being rushed through some of them.

For example, the reason why the LFS suggested throwing in a couple of Dominos is because they are hardy fish, so even though you may have done an initial cycle without fish, they had you boost the bio-load rapidly by putting in fish that can handle it better. (Essentially causing more cycles) Just because they can handle things better doesn't mean they ought to.

The thing is, just because the tank cycled doesn't mean all the bacteria needed was there. The Dominos were pushing the boundaries of those bacteria levels to populate more bacteria, but during that time they suffered. They were being used in a similar manner to cycling with a fish. Depending upon the fish overlap, the Dominos may have killed one of the Clowns, but it's hard to read the fish timeline you have here. Dominos are aggressive fish.

My best advice for you, given your situation, being wedged between friends and a wife working at LFS and being in the hobby for years, would be to find some strong reading material. By strong reading material, I mean books written by those who have been in the aquarium trade for decades or have gotten advanced education from various colleges. The reading materials will present the science of it all and not be clouded with emotion or cycling a steady influx of revenue. Always ask questions from multiple sources like here (maybe other forums) and those close to you that you already go to, and if you get conflicting answers, don't jump until you have researched it further yourself.

I just know that the position you are in makes it difficult to know exactly who to believe because they all have great strengths. But sometimes those strengths can be limited to the environment they are gaining experience from. Just look for red flags and then try to figure out why they went up. And always ask the simplest of questions... Why? As you are doing here. Don't just take someone's word for it unless they can answer the why.

I hope I'm not sounding harsh, because I'm really not trying to be. I'm also trying not to target and pick on your wife or your friends. They are probably great with their advice in most cases, and it's awesome to have such experience around you for when things go wrong. Let me put it this way... I have several auto mechanic friends that help me fix my cars, but usually just want to give me advice and allow me to help myself. Despite them having decades of experience, I still get bad advice from time to time. Recently, I dumped all my transmission fluid on the street through my neighborhood because none of them knew that the new CVT trannies pump transmission fluid through condensers instead of radiators. I see you being in a similar situation.

I too am fallible with my tank as well. I just recently caved in to my two little nieces and bought a Scooter Blenny as an impulse buy when we were all at our LFS. A Scooter Blenny needs an established tank of at least a year and has difficult food requirements. I knew this, but the LFS thought I'd do well and my nieces convinced me that I could do it. About half a week later I decided the Blenny should be returned because I knew it wasn't time. It was hard to do, but I feel confident that I made the right choice. Maybe the Blenny would have thrived, but I don't need to be pushing boundaries when an animal's life is at stake.

Anyways... Best of luck!

 

[jimmy]

Honestly Halo, I don't think you have a water issue. 75 gal tank, 15 gal water change every 2 weeks and skimming plus you don't have any big fish like angles or tangs. Tend to agree with Oxylebius. Think you may have more than one issue going on here. If it was water your inverts would show it first as they are more susceptible to poor water conditions.

Where are you getting your fish from, the same place? Maybe try a different LFS or mail order. Do you see any aggression or in-fighting among them? As DaveK pointed out your clowns may not like each other.
I know you said in your first post you researched everything. Be sure to study your fish types and know what goes good together.
One of the most peaceful fish I always got was a FoxFace. They are docile, colorful and kinda unique looking. But at this point hold off on adding anything till you get a handle on this issue. Actually as I'm writing this...
The only thing you've lost is clowns?? That very well could be your answer. Make sure your getting the same species.

Hope that helps...