Best Nitrate reducer

Creekview

Member
You are feeding quite a bit. What doesn't get eaten rots, and what does turns to fish poo. Both generate nitrates and other pollutants. I've been at this since the 70's. I could have bought a new Mustang GT500 for what I've spent on theoretical solutions that required continuous maintenance and optimization, only to abandon most of them as failures or the cause of failures and crashes. I also have the formal education, though dated (BS Marine Ecology with a concentration on inshore reef systems, minor in Conservation Biology), to understand the science behind the idea of a scrubber. Even the original scrubber design, though insanely successful, proved too complex to maintain consistently. The science since Dr. Adey has evolved, and has been proven beyond reasonable doubt, even though his initial application of theory was flawed. The current Smithsonian system is a horizontal flow application. I build what are mostly counter flow in refugiums and sumps. I'm not arrogant enough to criticize what's working for someone. My whole point is that I believe in these applications, to the point of voluntarily risking a huge investment in livestock. That doesn't mean that what you have doesn't work for you. :)
 

reefle

Active Member
yeah.... they are eating everything I feed is the thing. I monitor nitrates everyday. seem healthy for almost 2 months now. but I was thinking of getting rid of the tomato and the pair of clowns maybe if things get out of hand
 

moze229

Member
Reefle,

You have a long road ahead, so don't get discouraged just yet :)

I completely understand your wish to cut down on water changes. I believe this will be possible in time, but for now it's probably not a bad idea to go ahead with it. You have to let your tank establish the correct sized bacteria "buffer" before you can be all cool and go without changing water often. :) In my experience, high nitrates means one, and only one thing, which translates to you not having enough surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow. In your case specifically, you don't have near the amount of live rock that you need. Since you are working on remedying that, I think you'll be surprised how quickly your nitrate issue resolves over time. In a few months, you'll be able to develop your own water change/not water change schedule and figure out all the wackadoodle stuff that goes on with water chemistry.

In the long term however, I would also advocate at least researching the algae scrubber. Pay special attention to the mat size (growing surface) and the proper amount of light. It's easy to provide too little or too much. This particular item was an excellent solution for my setup, although I was battling phosphates more than nitrates. In fact, I've never had detectable nitrates since about 2003. :) Phosphates on the other hand have been an ongoing struggle, until about the last two years or so.

I'll likely get flamed for this, but I don't care because I know it to be true in MY particular case. In the long term, battling nitrate or phosphates with water changes is sort of like trying to keep calcium and alk up in the same manner. You can do it that way, but there are much easier ways of dealing with these problems.

Very minute levels of phosphate are purported to cause issues, and it's usually very minute amounts that exist in our aquaria. Even what we consider "high" is so diluted, that doing a large water change does little good. For example, the basic rule is to strive for <.03. Let's say it's .05. We do a 50% water change, and now we are at .025%, barely enough to get below the minimum accepted level. Not very economical. And, it's easy for phosphate to rise quickly.

The same could be said about nitrates, but I look at nitrates differently than most others. In my experience, unless nitrates are excessively high (50+ppm), these levels are not neccessarily lethal, even for the most sensitive to it. (Inverts and coral.) Now I'm not saying not to pay attention to nitrate levels if they rise - by all means, keep them as low as possible. But, I think there is sometimes too much emphasis on nitrate levels. Corals, clams, and other life in reefs actually REQUIRE nitrates to survive, although these amounts are usually much less than you would find in an aquarium. It's much easier to drop nitrates with water changes than with phosphates, and in your case it may be required. I would shoot for below 10 at all times if you can.

Back in the late 90's, we were all focused on nitrate removal for the hair algae battles. Now it's all about phosphates. What will it be tomorrow? LOL

Feed less. I like to keep my fish hungry and coral hungry, but not emaciated. With your nitrate levels as high as they are and the amount of stock you have, I would cut feeding way down - to like three times a week for now. Your fish will not starve and die. Once your rock takes your nitrates down (while you are doing partial water changes to help it along), you'll be able to feed more.

Everything will fall into place. You'll see.
 

StirCrayzy

Well-Known Member
I'm on the scrubber bandwagon myself , and agree with the masses.
That's a lot of fish, and there's no way for the biological system to support it in 6weeks.
Water changes are your best friend right now, time to start thinking how to make them convenient enough to I keep up on for now.
 

Steve L

Member
I love the discussion on here and now I will post the details of my tank


125 gallon started June 11h. I moved everything from my 90 gallon to the 125 and added some more rock for a total of 80-90 pounds
20 gallon refugium with only a football sized piece of chaeto with lights running 24/7
40 gallon sump running carbon, gfo, and a skimmer like 20/6

I've started feeding:
2 cubes of mysis per day
a 6"x2" of nori every other day
3x about half a teaspoon of pellets per day

livestock:

purple tang
kole tang
yellow tang
bluejaw trigger
3 clowns
1 tomato clown
1 purple firefish
foxface
6 line wrasse
3 lyretails
1 diamond goby
1 cleaner wrasse
1 mandarin goby
1 flame angel
1 coral angel
1 pistol
1 cleaner
1 small baby hippo I havent seen in a couple days
bunch of hermits and snails

a whole bunch of corals I'm not taking the time to name

yes this is stocked to the max

PLEASE DONT KILL ME IM NOT STOCKING ANYMORE.

I'm about to buy another 20-30 pounds of live rock/rubble to stick into my sump somewhere or in the refugium.

It would be cool to have another means of nitrate exporting just to have it.

I'm doing weekly water changes for now but I eventually want to get to the point where its seldom like Cheekview's tank

Don't worry, we won't kill you for overstocking your tank, but you're probably going to kill all of those beautiful fish in the very near future. I hope that I'm wrong about your situation, but at the stage your tank is at you should have no more than about 3 fish in there and almost no corals. Most of the corals that can survive in those conditions are fast growing softies that will quickly take over the tank. Unless your fish stress out and get sick which is a very real possibility, your corals are going to start dropping like flies with such a high bio-load. You want to cut back on water changes, but you've set yourself up so that the only way your tank will survive is with weekly or bi-weekly changes. There just isn't any way around it with the amount of food you're dumping in there and the amount of waste the fish are producing.
 

waucedah_joe

Active Member
A scrubber is one proven way to reduce nitrates. I wouldn't be without mine. I went over a year without a water change and was able to keep things "alive". However, i'm getting better results now that I also do water changes.
 

moze229

Member
A scrubber is one proven way to reduce nitrates. I wouldn't be without mine. I went over a year without a water change and was able to keep things "alive". However, i'm getting better results now that I also do water changes.

In my opinion, water changes are important for replacing trace elements - that's it. With today's filtration methods and equipment, water changes for removing 'dirty water' to replace with 'clean water' is futile. Some people do many water changes, and others do none with similar results. However, I personally believe that dosing the three big ones (Alk, cal, and mag) is not enough. There's just something in those there water changes that put the spunk back into the tank. :) The truth is, we really don't know all of the exact required elements and in what quantities are best. So, we just try and simulate natural ocean water to the best of our ability. This works mostly, but perhaps coral in captivity would do better with some tweaks. There are many years ahead and many discoveries still to be made.

It's nice to see that others are rediscovering the power the the scrubber. It's not a solve-all solution or a way to skimp on maintenance, but it sure is efficient at removing phosphates and nitrates. :)

The best nitrate reducer of all though - live rock.

Sorry. Feeling a little chatty tonight.
 

Creekview

Member
The best nitrate reducer of all though - live rock.

Moze,
I think that is the other major factor in the success I'm seeing in the tanks I have and support. And it's my observation that it's as much the quality of the rock as the amount. I'm running the most rock I've ever had in a system. It's 50% Marcorocks dry rock and 50% ocean cultured uncured live rock. I'm at a little over 2 lbs per gallon, with a 4-6" substrate. The dry rock is so light and porous, it provides bacteria an enormous surface area as compared to base rock, which is very dense and supports bacteria only on the surface. The ocean cultured rock gave me an almost instantly stable system. It barely cycled. That original 40 gallon breeder has evolved into my current setup, with ocean cultured rock added when I expanded. There are those who will say that I'm nuts, and it is aquacide. Long endorsement, chatty must be contagious :)
 

moze229

Member
Moze, I'm at a little over 2 lbs per gallon, with a 4-6" substrate.

Thats a lot. Also, don't forget your substrate depth. That's a LOT of surface area too. I didn't know anyone was still running that deep a substrate anymore. I remember the good ol' DSB days. :) You should never be able to detect nitrates.

I don't want to hijack reefle's thread. Sorry, reefle!
 

Choff

Well-Known Member
Tossing 20 to 30 of rubble in your fuge is not the answer and could become a nitrate factory on its own. If you missed it above do yourself a favor and look at seachems matrix. Then look at Santa Monica filtration, they have nice compact algae scrubbers. I use the surf version, but the hog may work out good for you.

I have a high bio load ( not as high as yours though ) and run both of these and I feed multiple times a day because I have anthias.

My nitrates are consistently 0.5 to 0.75.

Of course, I religiously do 10 to 15 pct water changes every week and my tank and sub systems are very clean. My sump has no detritius build up. I did also recently add a fuge and have soccer ball size chaeto ball, but I've had that less than 3 weeks.
 

rufus2008

Active Member
I use an aquaripure nitrate filter and have had zero nitrates for two years on a 108 gallon mixed reef. I do a thirty gallon monthly wc to freshen the water up. My stocking includes four bta's lots of coral, a forgave, a sailfin tang, an orange line tang, six line wrasse, 2 Bengal cardinals, two clowns and two large engineer gobies. There is no changing of the media, all you have to do is feed the reactor daily with a small amount of vodka. It works and my tank is living proof.
 

reefle

Active Member
Thank you all for the discussion on this page! I learned a lot actually through reading it all!!

I will probably set up a scrubber this weekend as well as get more live rock in the fuge and sump.

I will probably also purchase another type of media as I have an extra media. I'll use all of them at first and once the rock and scrubber are matured I'll probably keep the media reactor on standby.
 

Stephane Cote

Active Member
I don't know how good this stuff is, but it helped me lower my nitrates to something i could manage (went from 40 to 0.25). now that they are low, they are staying low by my water changes. before i was chasing my tail. i was at a point doing daily water changes and my nitrates were not going down. i tried a big 50% and it did help but not enough. I used this for about 1 week and my issue was resolved. i did not see any negative side affects. BUT you must use as directed.

http://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-program/algae-management-program/no3po4-x/

steph
 

reefle

Active Member
Tossing 20 to 30 of rubble in your fuge is not the answer and could become a nitrate factory on its own. If you missed it above do yourself a favor and look at seachems matrix. Then look at Santa Monica filtration, they have nice compact algae scrubbers. I use the surf version, but the hog may work out good for you.

I have a high bio load ( not as high as yours though ) and run both of these and I feed multiple times a day because I have anthias.

My nitrates are consistently 0.5 to 0.75.

Of course, I religiously do 10 to 15 pct water changes every week and my tank and sub systems are very clean. My sump has no detritius build up. I did also recently add a fuge and have soccer ball size chaeto ball, but I've had that less than 3 weeks.

So I just bought a gallon of matrix and enough purigen to treat up to 265 gallons of water. That will go in various places in my sump.

I plan on getting another 20-30 gallons of porous live rock for the fuge and I have a reed radiance fuge LED to help grow the football sized chaeto in my refugium. If all that fails I will build a ATS.
 

Frankie

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
I'm in a pickle with my new tank again. I cannot seem to control my nitrates.

Here's a little breakdown of what I have going.

80-90 pounds of live rock in a 125 ( I dont want to increase this too much in my display tank because I like the look of open space with standing rock structures)
20 gallon refugium with about a football size of chaeto
display tank with 2 inches of sand

I was wondering which of the following options would be best at reducing my nitrates

1. add 25-30 pounds of live porous rock to my reguium. (however isnt it counterproductive to add rock that should have a whole bunch of aneorobic areas to a tank that holds macroalgae and produced a crap ton of oxygen)

unfortunately I don't have much room in my regular sump cause it has all the mechanical filtration

2. give another shot at a biopellet reactor which didnt work for 6 weeks last time I had it.

3. have a reactor that holds a crap ton of purigen.


Any ideas or suggestions? I know water changes is the biggest nitrate reducer, but its a real pain for me to do it in my condo and I would rather keep that to a minimun and just change reactors/dump the skimmer/etc.
You said originally you have a foot ball size ball of cheato.
That is most likely why your nitrates are not lowering. It has stopped growing on the bottom and inside. It needs light to grow and extract nitrates from the water.
The whole point of having a refugium with nitrates feeding algae is to export. You need to remove a portion of it regularly (export) so new algae can grow.(export)
Keep exporting the cheato and the nitrates will drop.
Oh, and weekly water changes of 10% is more then enough to provide fresh nutrients, ions to the system.
Check your fish and coral feeding habits also.
 

moze229

Member
So I just bought a gallon of matrix and enough purigen to treat up to 265 gallons of water. That will go in various places in my sump.

I plan on getting another 20-30 gallons of porous live rock for the fuge and I have a reed radiance fuge LED to help grow the football sized chaeto in my refugium. If all that fails I will build a ATS.

The scrubber is not something that you need to get into right away anyway. Some people think that they are not worth the effort, or that they don't work at all. I HAD to have one because in my case, it was the only way that I could keep SPS in my smaller system. Otherwise, my phosphates are way too high and I get brown corals. I could have used GFO, and I did for a while, but it got to be too much trouble and expense. Hair algae in my display was another constant battle, but no more with the scrubber. A scrubber is not the most efficient way of removing nitrates (such in your case) anyway. I think the additional rock alone will really be all that you need. And more than likely if you do consider the ATS eventually, you'll have to decide between the chaeto or scrubber. Hair algae is much more efficient at removing nutrients (it out-competes macro algae in MOST cases). When I sat mine up, my macro died. That's why you see many systems with people doing almost everything right, growing huge balls of macro and still end up with hair algae in the display. In my small system, the algae is going to grow somewhere, so I choose to tell it where to grow which is not in the display. I don't have room for the huge needle wheel skimmer and algae eating fish.

In the meantime, Purigen ran alongside carbon will help. You'll be able to dump the Purigen eventually and just stick with carbon if you'd like. I don't even run carbon anymore. My SPS colors are better without it.
 

moze229

Member
You said originally you have a foot ball size ball of cheato.
That is most likely why your nitrates are not lowering. It has stopped growing on the bottom and inside. It needs light to grow and extract nitrates from the water.
The whole point of having a refugium with nitrates feeding algae is to export. You need to remove a portion of it regularly (export) so new algae can grow.(export)
Keep exporting the cheato and the nitrates will drop.

This is also sound advice that I didn't think of.
 

reefle

Active Member
You said originally you have a foot ball size ball of cheato.
That is most likely why your nitrates are not lowering. It has stopped growing on the bottom and inside. It needs light to grow and extract nitrates from the water.
The whole point of having a refugium with nitrates feeding algae is to export. You need to remove a portion of it regularly (export) so new algae can grow.(export)
Keep exporting the cheato and the nitrates will drop.
Oh, and weekly water changes of 10% is more then enough to provide fresh nutrients, ions to the system.
Check your fish and coral feeding habits also.

Yeah actually the ATS gave me the idea that I needed to spread it out. I guess when I say football size I mean if it were clumped. I'm actually spreading it out daily plus I added a second and stronger growth light.

So right now the plan is

1. make sure my Chaeto is growing as effectively as possible. (I also stuck in an additional 20 pounds of really porous rock)
2. wait for 20 pounds to seed (will a little vodka dosing help?) also running carbon and GFO 24/7
3. my purigen and 4 litres of matrix are scheduled to come in on the 14th so that's when I'll put those in

Meantime I'll regulate feeding, check parameters daily, and do water chages as needed
 

moze229

Member
Don't start dosing stuff :) (carbon dosing - vodka) Take the conventional route for now. Carbon dosing introduces a whole other set of variables that will just complicate matters.
 
Top