A Real Hero

[Paul B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=RZ7968BbMnU

 

[Reef Commando]

Outstanding bravery and courage, yes. A hero.......No.

Doing what you are paid and trained for isn't heroic.

I have commendations for bravery and courage........they don't mean a thing to me because I was doing my job.
I have medals.......................................................they don't mean a thing to me because I was doing my job.
My Green Beret.....................................................I earned that and will be buried in it. I would kill to defend it, even now.

 

[Paul B]

Maybe so, but I also have medals, (2 bronze stars) I also have commendations for bravery and courage, (they do mean something to me as even though it was my job, I am still proud that I did it well) , but I didn't do what this man did. Very few Medals of Honor are given out and the vast majority of them are given posthumousely. I was in a battle where one of the guys there received the Medal of Honor. He did deserve it even though it was his job. (A book about that battle just came out last week and I just received it https://www.facebook.com/pages/FSB-Illingworth/144305559024950 Just saying. But I do also admire your Green Beret as I was never one but I did serve with some of you guys. Thank you for your service.

Here he is talking about it. Looks like a hero to me and I served with a few. He was also a Green Beret. He is now, unortunately, dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2e1nCmXB0aY

 

[Mike Johnson]

I watched that video and Sgt. Benavidez was a HERO. Getting a medal for "above and beyond your call of duty" means just that.

I hate to say this, but I've seen my share of cowards. (Four stars on a Combat Action Ribbon)

 

[Reef Commando]

Just to let you know, my green beret isn't the American one.........British forces and it is the Commando beret earned for passing out as a Royal Marine or All Arms Commando. Mine was All Arms. Apart from passing SAS selection it is the only beret you have to earn within Brit Mil. All others you get given.

I knew it would be an interesting topic, as views vary. I don't think any of the replies are right or wrong. They are all right because they are stemming from a belief of what a hero is or isn't.

A hero is normally a person who has been elevated to that status by other people/person and not normally by their own labelling.

I believe that every service member shows bravery and courage just by signing on the dotted line. Just that action alone means that some day you may be asked to put your life on the line. Unfortunately nobody can say how they will react when the poop hits the fan, though. One reason, I suppose that it can take being ambushed to really gel a group together.......you get complete trust from it.

9 SAS were attacked by 400 rebels in Oman and beat them. None of them call themselves heroes. That is bestowed by others. Battle of Mirbat

 

[Paul B]

Just to let you know, my green beret isn't the American one

Yes, I got that from the Essex England under your avitar.
That was pretty bad odds for those 9 guys beating 400 rebels.
My outfit was also attacked by 400 NVA communist soldiers but we were closer to 150 of us.
We still beat them but took heavy losses which is outlined in that book I linked above. ( there are some after battle pictures there) We had quite a few hero's that night. None of them were me, but I did what I was supposed to do. You are correct, no one knows how they will react in that situation. I know now, but I don't want to experience it again. I am retired from a few things including work and hopefully war. I will let the young guys do that sort of thing now.

 

[Soupylou]

Yes, I got that from the Essex England under your avitar.
That was pretty bad odds for those 9 guys beating 400 rebels.
My outfit was also attacked by 400 NVA communist soldiers but we were closer to 150 of us.
We still beat them but took heavy losses which is outlined in that book I linked above. ( there are some after battle pictures there) We had quite a few hero's that night. None of them were me, but I did what I was supposed to do. You are correct, no one knows how they will react in that situation. I know now, but I don't want to experience it again. I am retired from a few things including work and hopefully war. I will let the young guys do that sort of thing now.

Interesting topic - War is tragic, inception of man made greed, egotism and self ignorance. It's more tragic, society relies on vast number of the uneducated working class to be the prawns of political game, at times giving up their life's.

I can't celebrate not can I fathom the idealism of give a man a gun and let him kill and it's deem not murder.

This man simply went above and upon the duty to survive.

 

[Anya]

It's more tragic, society relies on vast number of the uneducated working class to be the prawns of political game, at times giving up their life's.

(I'm sorry, I really am, I agree with what you're trying to say here, but....bahahaha....)

 

[Soupylou]

Well hello it's fish forum, it was pun

 

[Mike Johnson]

Interesting topic - War is tragic, inception of man made greed, egotism and self ignorance. It's more tragic, society relies on vast number of the uneducated working class to be the prawns of political game, at times giving up their life's.

I can't celebrate not can I fathom the idealism of give a man a gun and let him kill and it's deem not murder.

This man simply went above and upon the duty to survive.

I would suggest that you proof read your post when you make a derogatory comment about vast numbers of uneducated working class prawns that in your opinion are murderers.

 

[Paul B]

Dam, now I know I am an uneducated, working class prawn.
But you are correct. The last draft we had, I was drafted right near my 19th birthday. They invented a college deferment so the elite class would not have to send their children to fight in a war, even though the people who fight, protect the upper class just as they protect the un educated, working class prawns.:waa:
But in any event, some people are just born heroe's and unfortunately, some are born cowards. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle but we really don't know until we are put in that situation. TV and movies about war are not even close as the TV star is on TV again next week but many of the hero's are here one minute and gone forever, the next.

 

[Friendly Fire]

I would suggest that you proof read your post when you make a derogatory comment about vast numbers of uneducated working class prawns that in your opinion are murderers.

Somebody had to say it. We'll spoken Mike. Making statements about individuals who would leave there families at home and forfeit there own lives to safe guard the freedom of others and their country is uncalled for. Nothing but thanks giving and praise should ever enter your mind about the men and women in our military. Freedom never has been free. We should never take it for granted.

 

[Soupylou]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and in my eyes war is not to be celebrated. We choose to murder each other and brand the opposite side as emeries to justify the killing.

First, war is wrong for the same reasons that murder is wrong. Because war is murder.

A strategy that kills ten thousand people is not somehow less wrong than killing just one person. The colossal scale does not make it noble. The idea that countries rather than people are the “agents” is also irrelevant.

Now we live in the Propaganda Age. Marketers have figured out how to use words and images to trigger deep emotions, distract our focus, fog our thinking and get us to do things we would never do otherwise. This isn't right or wrong - it's just science. It's just knowledge. But all of us need to catch up to the science here, and find ways to regulate it, counter it, protect against it. Europe learned the hard way what happens when unrestrained racist propaganda is put in front of people -- so now in much of Europe it is banned. Look at what unrestricted marketing has brought us -- a lung cancer epidemic, widespread obesity, massive debt, global warming and other forms of what I call "marketing diseases." And now they are marketing war. We are going to have to learn, probably the hard way, that we need collective agreement about restrictions on marketing.

We are not hated because we practice democracy, value freedom, or uphold human rights. WE are hated because our government denies these things to people in Third World countries whose resources are coveted by our multinational corporations. That hatred we have sown has come back to haunt us in the form of terrorism.. Instead of sending our sons and daughters around the world to kill Arabs so we can have the oil under their sand, we should send them to rebuild their infrastructure, supply clean water, and feed starving children… In short, we should do good instead of evil. Who would try to stop us? Who would hate us? Who would want to bomb us?

 

[Soupylou]

Seventy percent of U.S. war dead in Afghanistan had no more than a high school education
Which is one percent less than the majority who were killed in Korea.

I wasn't trying to be rude but it is well known fact vast majority of soldiers who get killed are from the working class sector.

 

[Paul B]

Unfortunately war is with us, has always been with us and will always be with us. I, like most people would be thrilled if there was no war, hunger, disease, or poverty. Having fought in a war, I know a little about it. I was a working class soldier who did just have a high school education. When many people went to college, I was in Viet Nam. It was not my first choice. As for "murdering" other people, I also know about that and although I had no personal grudge against the people I fought, but if I did not kill them, I would be dead. If you were put in that situation, I am also sure you would also become a "murdered". (or you would become dead) To protect my loved ones, I would again become a "murderer".
We can't control other people and some people like Hitler comes to mind. We could have all just surrendered and became Nazi's, but some of us didn't think that would have been prudent at the time.
Anyway, this was just supposed to be a thread to honor a hero, nothing more. Sorry it became a war thread.

 

[Gasturbineguy]

I'm only an ex squid and these comments even rustled my feathers. Damn... :away:

 

[Mike Johnson]

All it takes for evil to prosper is: good men to do nothing.
I volunteered to serve in the Marine Corps for over 15 years because when I was in high school my friends always said, "If anyone should do it, it should be you." I thought it was my duty to serve.

As far as murdering people - I dated a woman once that said after the third social date that I was a murderer. I have only said a few cordial words to her since. Years have past, but not that memory.

Before you pass judgement consider - I grew up on a lake and a golf course. Doctors all through my family. Of course I never have to worry about how you feel about me because I'm sure you'd look down on me.

I'm sorry for being so dramatic, I'm not sure what fairy land you live in.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

I want to offer my thoughts to... but I am going to resist Lets just let this thread just die, or we can close it. It's near having Politics injected now...

Paul stated, "was just supposed to be a thread to honor a hero, nothing more." and that is how I took it. I personally honor all who serve. (sorry I did end up offering my opinion in a small way and I can see where this thread can easily offend)

We have a sticky at the top of Off Topics that Travis wrote (the owner of Reef Sanctuary, for anyone new)... it says this
-------------------

Just a word to let you know that, while we enjoy a rather open atmosphere in the OT forum, we steer away from heavy politics and/or religion.

Why?

So that we can all enjoy ourselves. There are plenty of places to discuss politics and religion online, and we feel any of those places would be better than here.

Posts/threads violating this policy will be edited or deleted at the discretion of your RS staff.

Thanks, and... let's just have some fun, eh?

Travis

 

[Reef Commando]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and in my eyes war is not to be celebrated. We choose to murder each other and brand the opposite side as emeries to justify the killing.

First, war is wrong for the same reasons that murder is wrong. Because war is murder.

A strategy that kills ten thousand people is not somehow less wrong than killing just one person. The colossal scale does not make it noble. The idea that countries rather than people are the “agents” is also irrelevant.

Now we live in the Propaganda Age. Marketers have figured out how to use words and images to trigger deep emotions, distract our focus, fog our thinking and get us to do things we would never do otherwise. This isn't right or wrong - it's just science. It's just knowledge. But all of us need to catch up to the science here, and find ways to regulate it, counter it, protect against it. Europe learned the hard way what happens when unrestrained racist propaganda is put in front of people -- so now in much of Europe it is banned. Look at what unrestricted marketing has brought us -- a lung cancer epidemic, widespread obesity, massive debt, global warming and other forms of what I call "marketing diseases." And now they are marketing war. We are going to have to learn, probably the hard way, that we need collective agreement about restrictions on marketing.

We are not hated because we practice democracy, value freedom, or uphold human rights. WE are hated because our government denies these things to people in Third World countries whose resources are coveted by our multinational corporations. That hatred we have sown has come back to haunt us in the form of terrorism.. Instead of sending our sons and daughters around the world to kill Arabs so we can have the oil under their sand, we should send them to rebuild their infrastructure, supply clean water, and feed starving children… In short, we should do good instead of evil. Who would try to stop us? Who would hate us? Who would want to bomb us?

First of all may I start with a reply to your first notable comment, although not included in your post I have quoted.

Lack of education in the soldier is not something which I have witnessed as an ex serving soldier or a retired high risk close protection officer (protecting high value targets from terrorists). Personally, I have run my own business for the last 25 years (even whilst serving). I have business exams together with Institute of Leadership and Management exams. That is besides some of the military courses I have passed. Physical Training Instructor which includes a mass of theoretical coursework above and beyond the civilian equivalent course.

The mythical view of the pig thick soldier being blind to education and in the job because they are incapable of any occupation couldn't be further from the truth.


I am mostly interested in the last paragraph of yours which I have quoted.

I couldn't disagree more with you about multinational corporations. It is the third world and other countries who love multinational corporations because they can get the resources out of the ground etc for them. What the country then decides to do with the revenue is up to them. In the vast majority of cases the money is creamed off by those in power and not filtered down to the population.

Your theory of me being sent to kill Arabs is very interesting. I did go and kill hundreds of them and you won't be the only person who listened to the hype of it being for oil. Let me explain in a little more detail by using two experiences.

Last war was Iraq 2003. Not there for long because we were very quickly in and very quickly out again. I won't bore you with the war part but I stayed after the war and patrolled as the furthest section North of Basrah (apart from SBS). Coming out of the field to our base, we travelled through a town an hour after another regiment. The locals were out cheering us, even though the BAATH Party members had hung two children by the neck from a post for waving at the previous regiment. Our Base was next to an infants school. We had taken over a small Iraqi Army base that they used to terrorise the locals. In the infants school one of the classrooms was not used to educate the children but to torture people. During my time there before returning to the UK on the 1st June 2003 I had the pleasure of going into other torture chambers. All run by the BAATH Party. I also did Liaison work with the locals. The children were encouraged to return to schools along with teachers. Aid filtered up the line and we distributed it. BAATH Party members were also apprehended after information gained from prominent locals that we had forged relationships with. We had a lovely chap turn up at the base with his chess board. The first time he had dared be seen in public with it since Saddam had risen to power because if seen he would have faced execution. Whilst conducting a vehicle check point we also had hundreds of Shia pilgrims pass through. The first time they had openly made the pilgrimage since Saddam had come to power. I will let you put two and two together!! Once it filtered up the line we distributed food aid. Fresh food, even though we were living on ration packs and were all suffering internal damage.

I also spent 3 years in Iraq protecting military and civilian staff of the US Army Corps of Engineers. Hmmmm now according to you, an army just destroys and rapes a country and if it is Iraq that can only mean one thing OIL!

Mosul was my start point. The most dangerous city in the world. We gave medical reference books to a hospital. The following morning insurgenst stopped him in his car and shot him in the head. His crime was accepting the books for us. We gave food and water to a village which was next to a border fort we had to visit. They were very grateful. We went hungry on that day. Insurgents beheaded the women and children the following day. They used to deliver fuel from Turkey as Iraq was short on supplies. The insurgents would stop the drivers and execute them before setting the tankers on fire. Insurgents would execute barbers for trimming beards. Insurgents would execute road workers for filling in pot holes. Insurgents forced Christian women to wear the Hijab. Insurgents would execute anyone for the slightest reason. Knelt at the side of the road, shot in the head and left. Steal corpses from the morgue and leave them in a gutter. Place improvised explosive devices in live and dead animals as well as the corpses from the morgue. Buy backward children and use them as suicide bombers. trick people into delivering a car and detonate it en route!

I finished my time in Basrah. I wasn't doing protection work for the last 9 months but Reconstruction Liaison Team as 2nd in command and in command. During that time, I was tasked by US Army Corps of Engineers and also Provincial Reconstruction Teams to survey reconstruction projects for them. This list might shock you and I shall save the best to last and answer your last sentence with it. Some projects paid for by America and also charity money.........

Basrah sewage network. Started by Saddam and never finished. Cost around US$60M to finish.
Basrah sweet water canal. Off the top of my head 63km repaired and this supplied fresh water to the city
Basrah storm water run off canals, completed to take flood and flash water away from the city
Health clinics. One in every district of the city
Numerous school extensions
Numerous toilet blocks for schools. I remember walking across one playground when there was a high sniper threat and thinking how outrageous it would be to get shot in the head just for checking the builders had completed work to the toilets they had invoiced for!!!
Getting into local villages and identifying areas for reconstruction.
Electrical infrastructure which would get looted and sabotaged after completion. Hence why they had shortages and power cuts!
Oil infrastructure which was not capable of producing enough bottled cooking gas ( a by product as you probably know), let alone produce enough for export.
I saw the Southern Oil Company progressing (Iraqi) and they now have contracts awarded in which the winner has to meet targets or pay penalties and the bulk of the revenue goes to the SOC. If you do know anything about oil, (I doubt it) Lukoil had its contract terminated by Saddam and not other firms.
We employed and trained locals on the team. Locals who would be killed if caught working for us.
I have been shot at, been in an ambush so bad we had to call for air strikes! Been in kinder ambushes, targeted by roadside bombs. Have dead aquaintances (I don't do friends) whose vehicles have been hit with roadside bombs made in Iran and Syria. Twice had one of my three vehicles hit by a roadside bomb. All of these instances were my reward for being involved in the reconstruction chain. During my last 9 months our base was subject to over 300 rocket attacks!!!!!! It has taken me 6 years not to panic when I hear a jet powering down.

Now then, if we go into a country to do good, who would want to stop us, hate us, bomb us!!

Look up Basrah Childrens Hospital. My team was involved with that for a long time. We had certain safety and there would be no attempt to hurt us whilst on site. On the way there or leaving, we were however under a death threat from the Mahdi Militia for being involved with it.

Ask yourself why we have had no involvement militarily in Syria with large scale deployments but the aid agencies have had to pull out. Why do Christian aid, Oxfam etc etc have to pull out of other countries that we do not get involved with.



Not in this quote but interesting that you play the war dead card and which class background they come from. Since the inception of rank structures and defined roles and responsibilities within fighting forces it has always been the majority of junior ranks which die. It has nothing to do with education but the role the soldier is playing. A Warrant officer first class is normally secondary educated but not as likely to be killed as a private who may also be secondary school educated. Also the education does not pertain to intelligence. My sister went to private school, extremely clever and had been on the board of a blue chip company. I had secondary school education because I was not studious although always far more clever than my sister.

 

[Reef Commando]

I apologise to the mods if my response was/is in breach of anything or no longer in spirit of the initial post.

PTSD, sometimes I have to reply. Bad week this week. No one knows about it, not even the ex wife who I walked away from or my current wife.