a growing upsetness

[Eric]

I think this has gotten off the issue, this was not an attack on new comers to the hobby, we all made mistakes but most of us grow and learn from these mistakes.

The problem is also the LFS but they are there to make a profit so if you don't do the research and they sell you junk equipment and livestock that is not suitable for your tank it's just as much your fault as their's, Like any salesman if you'll buy it they'll sell it.

99% of the time you can find most of the answers to your questions on google and likely on the first page, if I offended any one i am sorry for that.

 

[Alien2100]

LFS and Online retailers are a huge part of the problem, however the newcomer to the hobby is looking for advise from these places. They put there trust in these people. And I do not agree with the buyer beware type of view. I've been in sales my whole life, and for years have managed top sales teams, and the first thing I always teach is trust and rapport which also involves educating customers on our products. I expect and look for this in the stores I deal with, and they are out there. People make mistakes and learn from them, all I'm saying is help these people the best you can and as an educated hobbyist don't support the type of stores that exploit people's shortcomings. That's the best way to help, and feel better about yourself.

 

[Eric]

I don't agree with the buyer beware thing but it is the only way to buy anything, if you don't do the research and educate yourself you are asking to be ripped off. Sucks but it is they way things are no matter what you are buying. You can't go through life assuming people are looking out for your best interests especially when there is a profit to be made.

We can imagine a better world were people look out for and take care of each other but that's not the way thing are especially when it comes to money and survival.

 

[Alien2100]

Sad but true, that's why I said "people make mistakes". However the point still remains, once educated about the hobby don't do business with these type of places and try and steer newcomers in the right direction.

 

[Eric]

We try to guide them but most don't listen till they completely kill everything.

look at the newbe posts, they post asking for advice till they don't get the answer they want argue with the answer or they get mad and leave.

That is my point.

 

[burning2nd]

gathering thought

 

[Frankie]

gathering thought

:lurk:
Threads like this can be dangerous. Let's do like burning2nd and keep this one informative and not flaming. keep thinking before hitting the post reply button
The best way to deal with new reefers is advise and walk. If they get it you will see over time.
Check out newenglandreefer's thread and see what can be done with new to the hobby I have advised tons of people before finding one able to set out and do it right. I hardly have to say much but "good work dude". I have seen many crash and fail before though.
The ones that fail usually drop out of the hobby before doing too much damage. Reefing is expensive after all. And I am glad of it
Don't get personal to fast. You never know who it is on the other end of the internet.
By keeping your aquarium right, in time you will start to see others following your lead. Don't expect others to think like you do. Your wasting your time.
Thats all I have to say on the subject.
Good thread everyone. Keep an open mind while replying and maybe we all can learn from one another~

 

[DaveK]

Uslanja, I couldn't agree with you more. As for the two stone throwers in the postings, you haven't a clue as to what I plan to do or not other than what I've told you. Yes, I bought a Sebae and maybe my tank isn't large enough to house such a creature. The best part about this is that I didn't know that my tank was too small till you fine people told me that it was. My question to you is, how do you know it's too small? What parameters are you going by? Is there a mathematical equation that tells me this or is this something you've learned by trial and error? As far as that goes, the people I've asked about the Sebae said that it would work well. You are the first person to tell me that the tank is too small and I took it under advisement. Once again thanks for the 30 seconds of knowledge you've provided to me on my post.

I'm not sure if this post was directed to myself or people like myself, or to the RS membership in general.

I have to say up front that I do not enjoy creating a post where I need to tell someone that they are doing major things incorrectly. This problem is that I feel far worse letting someone end up with a tank of very dead livestock, because they had no idea what they were doing.

I don't recall if I posted about you putting a seabe clown in a 10 gal tank or not, but I easily could have. How do I know this is the wrong thing to do? Well, I can't pontificate for anyone else, but here is my thought process.

First, I know the adult size of the fish. It's about 6 inches. Then we can figure that most are not going to get that large, and would only get to about 4 inches.

Second, I consider the size of the tank. Generally you have a stocking limit of about 1 inch of fish to 5 gal of water. In a 10 gal tank, by the time you add live rock, live sand and the like, you'll be down to about 7 1/2 gal of water, or enough to support 1 1/2 inches of fish.

Third, even if I assume that the fish you got was only 2 inches, you are over the stocking limit. You also have no room for growth. The bottom line is that long term, such a system is just about doomed to fail, especially in the hands on some one new to the hobby.

Now it is true that someone with many years of experience, can keep an overstocked tank running. In addition to the experience, they usually back up the experience with a lot of high end equipment, a lot more water changes, more water testing, and so on. This is why they can get away with what would be impossible for about 85% plus of the people in the hobby.

It's like a professional race car driver can get in the race car and run around the track at close to 200 mph, but if the average licensed driver on the street tried this, the result would be a crash.

In addition to the generally accepted principles of how to set up and maintain a reef system, I also have a lot of cold hard experience. I had my first SW tank at age 15. That was almost 45 years ago. That was before anyone ever even heard of a reef system. That was when you were considered an expert if you kept a fish alive 6 months. There was no internet with forums like this where you could ask questions. Over that time, I have literally made just about every possible mistake and quite a few times I ended up with a tank of very dead livestock. Some of this was because no one else in the hobby knew how to do things better. Some of it was my own dumb fault.

I don't want to see people make the same mistakes I did, and either learn the hard way, or drop out of the hobby. With the informational resources available today, just about anyone can set up a working reef system and have a good chance for success.

Benjamin Franklin put it very well ...
"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."

 

[Eric]

I though he ment a nem, either way what i said still appplies.

 

[jcgardner]

I am the one that posted about a 10g being to small for a nem. I will take the lashings that I get, I have no problem with that. I believe I said in the post that the nem will get over 12" and if it dies then it will crash the tank taking everything with it. He then replied that he was setting up a 210g tank in the next couple of months. If this happens that is great.

This thread was not meant to bash anyone, I assume, it was mearly a way to vent. It is very frustrating when people ask for advice and then throw it back in your face with nothing but excuses. I have been in SW for 3 years now and I know from experience that if you've been doing it correctly for very long, you generally have extra stuff. You have to probably have an old bucket that your salt came in, or a rubbermaid of some sort to put the fish in. It is in the middle of the summer, you may not even need the heater, go to walmart and pick up a $5 airpump and use it if you don't have an extra one. Unless I am an odd ball, most reefers have enough stuff on hand that they aren't using or can even take out of the main tank for a while to help cure a fish of a disease. It is just frustrating when people make excuse after excuse.

 

[Shazbah]

Guys sometimes you can just bang your head against a brick wall when giving advice but if that person asking for advice doesn't take it then at least you can sit back and think i tried. The reason i say this is because you will also have the reefer who has more money that sense and these are the ones usually who think oh well i'll just buy another. I have a friend who has a 5x4x2 but this is the kind of guy who sees someones tank and says i want one better than that. He will buy the most expensive fish going just to say "Look what i've got" without knowing anything about the fish at all. Then 2 days later it will jump out of the tank because of the bad water quality and say oh well i will get another. Every time i try to advise him he tells me i know nothing because i only have a 33 gal tank. I now give up with him but i know he is constantly seeking advise but never willing to listen. When i think of all the beautiful livestock he has lost and thousands of pounds worth of corals it makes my heart sink. There will always be people like this and lfs constantly suppling him without wondering what happened to the last lot he bought but i feel that we must never give up trying to educate them
Sharon

 

[burning2nd]

ok. took me a week to get here but i gotta say a few things...

and then this should be closed...its obvious that this touched a bunch of people... Let me make a few points very clear..

In no way was i pointing at the new people, the amount of posts you make has nothing to do with your skill as a reef keeper, 2nd in no way was i suggesting flameing someone for not listening to advise of a better more professional reefer. this is a place for learning and, i learned so much from here and another reef site..

but i will say this, and i mean it in the most strait line blunt impact way. I find the attitude (excepting death as money lost) completely unacceptable and strait up disgusting. there is no end to this.
ive read story's of people flushing live creatures down the toilet because it was "undesirable"

in 8 years i dont think ive had a 31 reply thread. so i guess its safe to say i hit this one on the head.
u dont know how meny times ive read a thread the first or second replys then started righting my book at the bottem... only to not hit the "post" button becuase i didnt want this to happen.

just for instance.. ive kept everything ive had alive for years, Thur different tanks, from different houses, i made it very strong point to buy a generator strictly for the use of keeping my entire salt water operation up and ALIVE during a unforeseen event...
(thats pointed at the people who had 4 power outages in the last 3 years making 3 crashes in the last 4 years), then im gonna say if you live in a area, were the power goes out regularly and you dont have a back up plan that will end with total success you fail... and if your answer is i cant afford it, then you fail twice in one day.

this goes right on to the gulf oil leak now 90 days later has stopped. my point here is all i hear about is peoples money lost, the effect one local economy, ive yet once to hear someone ***** about the hundreds of thousands of things (millions really)that just died... i can smell the Nh4 from my house and i live a few thousand miles away...(figuratively)

all im asking is that we all try to help people and be a little more forcefully with making bad decision. u dont have to flame em... but u can nicely say "u will fail, and its not about money"

again, Im sorry if someone here is upset... but ive watched some really smart people leave sights like this because it hurts to read about people doing stupid things, this hobby isnt really hard at all... when i first started it was hard cause i had so much reading to do, and i red and red like no tomorrow..

please people (no direction) tread lightly ur dealing with live creatures, that by all means should have never came in contact with us.. and yet this stuck up self centered attitudes still fly unchecked.

save the pods the snails the hermits the crabs treat your CUC like gold and your fish like kings, dont take anything for granted in this world of salt water you choose to keep in your home, if its a bad little hitch hiker keep it alive in your sump... they didn't choose to come 2 you. u made them come
;(

 

[GlassMunky]

Good Post

 

[DaveK]

...
all im asking is that we all try to help people and be a little more forcefully with making bad decision. u dont have to flame em... but u can nicely say "u will fail, and its not about money"
...

I have some mixed feelings about doing this, and yes, I've made plenty of posts here similar to that. I really hate writing posts like that.

However, you have to consider what we are often dealing with here. In a few cases, yes, there is that arrogant [expletive deleted] that takes the "I'll just get another" attitude, but these people are comparatively rare. Most of the people that are doing all the wrong things are doing it because they are new to the hobby, and don't know what they are doing is wrong. They went into a LFS, listened to the LFS, and purchased the whole thing on an impulse, without understanding what was involved.

It's true, since they are dealing with live animals, they should have done their research, but they are already into it. In many cases they need a lot of help but don't even realize it yet. They are not taking a bad attitude. They want to learn, but they don't even know how or where to start.

Reef systems are just about the most complex hobby you can get involved as far as keeping something alive goes. In many cases, you just can't come out and tell the person that they are doing everything wrong, even if you explain the reasons behind that. It's going to seem like your beating up on them. I feel the best thing you can do at first is point them in the right direction. Too much more would be overwhelming. At that point the person can acquire the necessary knowledge, and have a chance at doing things more or less correctly.

If we take a hard line and tell most new members that everything they are doing wrong, we will tend to drive people away from this site, and it could become a much less friendly place. One of the reasons I have about 4 posts on [that big time reef forum] is the way they have a tendency to rip new people apart. It can get really nasty sometimes. I feel that RS is much nicer place to be.

 

[sasquatch]

BRAVO Jon! time wounds all heels in the big Karmic circle, shine on burning one.

 

[robaman]

i agree when i lost my fish recently i felt horrible and will be sure to do everything in my power to keep it from happening again.

 

[LivBlue]

Well to the OP really you have to stay with it, your info is a huge value to us newbies. I love my tank, and prob more than I could ever put in words. Its amazing and showed me how hard life tries.

Anyway I think your fighting a loosing battle most of the time to tell people it's life not just money. However refocusing them on success, how things work together, and fac sheets might help.

I'm not religious. I appreciate the life in my tank, how it evolved to work itself into puzzle. I'm amazed by the little things that "appear" like starfish that I didn't specifically put in there. I don't think of a god while my nose is pressed against the glass waving at a family member to come look.

I bring it up because the heart of the issue here is complex. How to get those who think they can just get "another" for $20 to understand they put a fish or coral in harms way. That it's death was a loss.

That is a debate that will go on and on, it's something like religion that has to do with so many factors that it's maybe not the best way to "help" someone on a forum. I totally agree with you, its sad that humans walk into a LFS they are shown many beautiful things, they pick something out, they are told "it'll work" when likelihood is that it won't. But the store has to stay open, the workers need to pay rent, and the customer wants a new pretty thing to bring home. I've really enjoyed online sites like liveaquaria that shows a detailed description (short enough someone will read) which allows me to think about it as a choice for my tank.

Refocusing your attention to building write ups on fish and corals, contacting websites that have zero info about the animal listed below it, spending money at the LFS that says NO to people, and so on might help make some changes. There are newbies who want to know, research junkies like myself will read anything you put in front of them. Maybe just putting the cold facts up there such as.....

I want a nem I've had a tank up for a month... gets the answer of a fact sheet about nems and point out that normally they take X months of a tank being set up, or that it'll get to 12" across, ect.

I appreciate all the advice I've gotten from sites like this one, I need it, I need people who've been at this longer than me to answer questions, so I hope frustrations can be turned into positive information. Continue to fight the good fight and it will pay off.

 

[burning2nd]

im glad to see that this is working and touching someones heart...

 

[smkndrgn142]

I've got to say that I don't think anyone gets into this hobby to kill anything. Mistakes are made, and we are all here to prevent further mistakes from being made...whether we are here to learn, or here to share our knowledge with others on this forum. It can be frustrating with all the conflicting information you get from forums like this or from your lfs...and to be fair, not all lfs are out just for money.

 

[DrugMonkeyRX]

This is why i chose not to put any fish in my tank until the 6 month mark(im in month number 2). I feel as a newbie there is a ton of stuff that you have to learn before you even think about putting a fish in your tank. The last 2 months ive spent reading forums about water quality and dialing it in properly not as easy as some people may think it is. When someone who has 20 plus yrs of experience explains to you why you should be patient you listen to that advice, that person has been thru it already.

Right now im in the process of replacing my crushed coral with Sand which i will be doing probably this weekend when my last batch of sand arrives tom. If i had rushed into it and bought a few fish already or a clean up crew it would of been alot more work and stress for the fish/CUC. Bottom line, of all the advice that i have read about salt water aquariums the main thing is to be patient and allow your system to grow.