SPR
Well-Known Member
I've just read the details of the JBL Gyrodol plus and it says it's not tolerated by invertebrates?
Nobby's S-650
- Thread starter Nobbygas
- Start date
I've just read the details of the JBL Gyrodol plus and it says it's not tolerated by invertebrates?
Yep, it says that on the instructions, however I had to make a judgement call. After visiting three LFS's this was the only treatment available. I could have ordered something online, but if it took 48 hours to get to me it would have been too late. So far, everything is ok in the tank. The invertebrates seem ok and I haven't noticed any dying. If I did/do lose them, well that is a price I will have to pay in an attempt to save the fish. As we've talked about, there is no way of catching all the fish and placing them in a hospital tank. I did read a lot about the use of Praziquantel and many many people have used it without affecting their invertebrates.
Overnight I only lost one female Anthia. This was no surprise as she was badly infected and I didn't expect her to live even with the medication. Everything else appears to be ok at the moment. No hiding, no erratic swimming. Some of the fish (Yellow Tang in particular) still appear to have small white spots on them, but I think this is just from the damage already caused and hopefully will start to clear up. When I say small white spots they are indeed tiny and not like Itch Spots, which are bigger. I am still not sure if it is Flukes or Velvet, as both have similar characteristics. However, the treatment seems to have stopped the spread of whatever it is.
The death toll so far:-
4 x Lyretail Anthias
1 x Arabian Blue Faced Wrasse
1 x Kole Tang
This picture (borrowed from the JBL Online Hospital) is a good representation of what the fish look like..
The latest aquarium gadget?
It's a device that will clean your tank without you being there. It also has a camera, and loads of other goodies.
http://www.moaidevices.com/
It does look impressive.
It's a device that will clean your tank without you being there. It also has a camera, and loads of other goodies.
http://www.moaidevices.com/
It does look impressive.
Has anyone come across Ruby Reef Rally ? It claims to be able to treat things like Velvet & Flukes, and contains no Copper, so it is safe to use in the tank?
http://www.rubyreef.net/rally/
http://www.rubyreef.net/rally/
SPR
Well-Known Member
Doesn't go around the corners to get to the sides, otherwise I would just have to get one!
Update:
So far, the Praziquantel seems to be working in that the deaths have stopped, however, it is not the end. I completed a large water change last night, and I will dose the medication again on Sunday. The medication kills the flukes, but not the eggs, so another dose is needed to kill the new flukes that emerge from the eggs that are in the tank.
I still have concerns though, and some of the fish still appear to be struggling. For example, I have some white spots on the Regal Tang. As always, with any infection, there is the risk of a secondary infection. The stress of the first infection can possibly lead to another infection of something else. The Blue Tang has developed some white spots. I don't think it's Itch, but white spots could mean Flukes or even Velvet...or a bacterial infection....or..... It really is difficult to reach a prognosis as most of the infections have similar symptoms. The last Anthia is showing signs of Velvet.
The more you read, and the more photos you look at just make it even more difficult. One minute I see a photo somewhere, and I think "that's it", but then I look at another photo of a different type of infection, and I think, "that's it as well!". It just gets really confusing, and at one point I was thinking to myself, "blimey, that fish has Velvet, those other three have Flukes, and maybe those other four have Itch!!!". Being rational, that scenario is highly unlikely.
So.......I will continue with the Fluke treatment, as this was my first suspicion, and what I have done has stopped the fish dying. I have also ordered some Ruby Reef Rally. This claims to be a medication for Velvet that can be administered directly into the tank without harming anything, because it contains no Copper! Some people online claim it is just Snake Oil, others claim that it works.
My angle is that if I have to remove all my fish to a QT tank, then basically I can only do that by removing a third of the rock from the tank, creating an empty 'space' and then using an acrylic divider to usher the fish into the empty part so I can catch them. For me, that would not be easy. For those of you with a lot of Coral, I'd imagine it would be near enough impossible, plus heartbreaking to have to break down your tanks like that. Doing nothing mean the fish will die. So, I am in the position of being able to test out these 'Snake Oils' as I have very little coral that could be affected. If it works, great. If it doesn't, well, the fish were going to die anyway if I did nothing.
So, one more dose of the Fluke medication, and if that doesn't work, then I have to switch my attention to something else, which I suspect may well be Velvet. I've ordered the Ruby Reef Rally as a 'just in case' measure. It'll take a day or two to arrive, as it's better to have it on hand for immediate use if I need it. It costs about 50 euro for one litre, which is basically the price of one fish.
One other point. As far as I can see, using the Gyrodol has not had any affects on the Invertebrates or the corals. It did make the Skimmer go ballistic though when I switched it back on!
So far, the Praziquantel seems to be working in that the deaths have stopped, however, it is not the end. I completed a large water change last night, and I will dose the medication again on Sunday. The medication kills the flukes, but not the eggs, so another dose is needed to kill the new flukes that emerge from the eggs that are in the tank.
I still have concerns though, and some of the fish still appear to be struggling. For example, I have some white spots on the Regal Tang. As always, with any infection, there is the risk of a secondary infection. The stress of the first infection can possibly lead to another infection of something else. The Blue Tang has developed some white spots. I don't think it's Itch, but white spots could mean Flukes or even Velvet...or a bacterial infection....or..... It really is difficult to reach a prognosis as most of the infections have similar symptoms. The last Anthia is showing signs of Velvet.
The more you read, and the more photos you look at just make it even more difficult. One minute I see a photo somewhere, and I think "that's it", but then I look at another photo of a different type of infection, and I think, "that's it as well!". It just gets really confusing, and at one point I was thinking to myself, "blimey, that fish has Velvet, those other three have Flukes, and maybe those other four have Itch!!!". Being rational, that scenario is highly unlikely.
So.......I will continue with the Fluke treatment, as this was my first suspicion, and what I have done has stopped the fish dying. I have also ordered some Ruby Reef Rally. This claims to be a medication for Velvet that can be administered directly into the tank without harming anything, because it contains no Copper! Some people online claim it is just Snake Oil, others claim that it works.
My angle is that if I have to remove all my fish to a QT tank, then basically I can only do that by removing a third of the rock from the tank, creating an empty 'space' and then using an acrylic divider to usher the fish into the empty part so I can catch them. For me, that would not be easy. For those of you with a lot of Coral, I'd imagine it would be near enough impossible, plus heartbreaking to have to break down your tanks like that. Doing nothing mean the fish will die. So, I am in the position of being able to test out these 'Snake Oils' as I have very little coral that could be affected. If it works, great. If it doesn't, well, the fish were going to die anyway if I did nothing.
So, one more dose of the Fluke medication, and if that doesn't work, then I have to switch my attention to something else, which I suspect may well be Velvet. I've ordered the Ruby Reef Rally as a 'just in case' measure. It'll take a day or two to arrive, as it's better to have it on hand for immediate use if I need it. It costs about 50 euro for one litre, which is basically the price of one fish.
One other point. As far as I can see, using the Gyrodol has not had any affects on the Invertebrates or the corals. It did make the Skimmer go ballistic though when I switched it back on!
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SPR
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear this Nobbygas.
Pat24601
Well-Known Member
Wow. Very sorry to hear this.
It has been a near total wipe-out.
The deaths seemed to have stopped after the initial treatment, but Friday evening all hell seemed to break loose. I could see that there were many fish struggling.
I decided to get all the fish out and put them into a hospital tank. To do this I basically had to remove all the rock from the tank, so a total strip down.
The 'hospital tank' was just a plastic container (about 100l) with a heater, small powerhead, and an air-stone. I filled it with water from the tank, and then transferred the fish from the DT to it. I then started to treat for Velvet. It didn't end well.
By Sunday morning most of the fish were dead. Yellow Tang, Regal Tang, Flame Dwarf, Lemonpeel Dwarf, Coral Beauty....all gone. The funny thing is that I still cannot see any obvious reason why?
The only survivors (so far) are 5 x Blue Chromis, 1 x Six Line Wrasse, I x Orange Spotted Goby, 1 x Cleaner Wrasse.
The deaths seemed to have stopped after the initial treatment, but Friday evening all hell seemed to break loose. I could see that there were many fish struggling.
I decided to get all the fish out and put them into a hospital tank. To do this I basically had to remove all the rock from the tank, so a total strip down.
The 'hospital tank' was just a plastic container (about 100l) with a heater, small powerhead, and an air-stone. I filled it with water from the tank, and then transferred the fish from the DT to it. I then started to treat for Velvet. It didn't end well.
By Sunday morning most of the fish were dead. Yellow Tang, Regal Tang, Flame Dwarf, Lemonpeel Dwarf, Coral Beauty....all gone. The funny thing is that I still cannot see any obvious reason why?
The only survivors (so far) are 5 x Blue Chromis, 1 x Six Line Wrasse, I x Orange Spotted Goby, 1 x Cleaner Wrasse.
I'm at a total loss Shaun. I haven't added anything new.
The only change I made was to stop Dosing the Triton stuff, and a few water changes to bring all parameters back onto a level footing, in preparation for starting with Red Sea Foundations. I cannot see how that could have effected anything.
I have read and re-read so much stuff. Some say that these diseases are always in the fish, other claim that they are not there and can only be introduced, but I think the reality is that nobody knows for certain. Is it like Cancer in humans, in that we know it's there (as such), and sometimes something (who knows what) can trigger the Cancer? The first casualty was a Blue Chromis that had had a large chunk bitten out of it's back. I assumed that it died from this injury or did the injury kick-start another illness? Some of the fish have been swimming well, feeding well, and looking good, then I find them dead in the morning, with no physical signs to go on. This was why I started to treat for Flukes, as I had seen a couple of fish with white stringy poo, which can indicate an internal parasite (it could also point to bad diet, but I don't believe that this was the case). It just seems strange that I had a three day spell with no deaths, and then they all started to drop at the same time.
The only change I made was to stop Dosing the Triton stuff, and a few water changes to bring all parameters back onto a level footing, in preparation for starting with Red Sea Foundations. I cannot see how that could have effected anything.
I have read and re-read so much stuff. Some say that these diseases are always in the fish, other claim that they are not there and can only be introduced, but I think the reality is that nobody knows for certain. Is it like Cancer in humans, in that we know it's there (as such), and sometimes something (who knows what) can trigger the Cancer? The first casualty was a Blue Chromis that had had a large chunk bitten out of it's back. I assumed that it died from this injury or did the injury kick-start another illness? Some of the fish have been swimming well, feeding well, and looking good, then I find them dead in the morning, with no physical signs to go on. This was why I started to treat for Flukes, as I had seen a couple of fish with white stringy poo, which can indicate an internal parasite (it could also point to bad diet, but I don't believe that this was the case). It just seems strange that I had a three day spell with no deaths, and then they all started to drop at the same time.
SPR
Well-Known Member
Yes its all very strange and clearly there is something wrong in the tank with disease or something. Or could there be something in the water as you used water from the main tank for the hospital tank?
I know from my limited experience with fish deaths, they don't tend to last long by the time they are showing they are ill in someway. It makes me wonder if they can even be treated by the time the symptoms are showing and they have been caught and transferred to a hospital tank, as they also have the trauma of being caught on top of being ill. Whenever ive lost a fish there gone before I could do anything in days. Both were Naso Tangs.
What's your plan now ?
Maybe if you've got all the fish out, with just a few corals left, its worth emptying the tank, sterilising in some 'reef safe' way to kill any bad things off and doing a complete refill with fresh water ?
You can do an instant cycle with ATM Colony (that's what I used) to get back up and running quickly if that's what your planning and then you will have a complete new sterile tank.
Not that its of any help, but I'm really sorry to hear all of this and I really hope you can get back up and running.
I know from my limited experience with fish deaths, they don't tend to last long by the time they are showing they are ill in someway. It makes me wonder if they can even be treated by the time the symptoms are showing and they have been caught and transferred to a hospital tank, as they also have the trauma of being caught on top of being ill. Whenever ive lost a fish there gone before I could do anything in days. Both were Naso Tangs.
What's your plan now ?
Maybe if you've got all the fish out, with just a few corals left, its worth emptying the tank, sterilising in some 'reef safe' way to kill any bad things off and doing a complete refill with fresh water ?
You can do an instant cycle with ATM Colony (that's what I used) to get back up and running quickly if that's what your planning and then you will have a complete new sterile tank.
Not that its of any help, but I'm really sorry to hear all of this and I really hope you can get back up and running.
Yep, I used water from the DT for the Hospital Tank. I had to do this, and it's the best thing really. You cannot just set-up a tank from scratch as such, as you have to get it cycled. Using ATM Colony is a good idea, however, it's not available in Germany and I'd have to order from the UK, meaning a delay of say four or five days in getting it. By then, everything would have been dead. They say nothing quick happens in Reefing, except for the spread of disease. I had to move quickly. Any parasites in the water of the hospital tank would have been killed off by the Meds....or should have. It's better to use water from your DT as the fish have the stress of the disease, plus the stress of being netted. If the water is the same as from where they came this can only help. If they also had to battle different water conditions as well, that surely would only weaken them further.
The plan now is to leave the tank 'fallow'. No fish for a minimum of 8 weeks. There is some debate as to whether this works or not. It all goes back to the old argument of whether parasites etc are 'introduced' into a tank, or are they always there anyway, and something 'triggers' them? I don't think anyone really knows.
This in fact gives me the opportunity to get the Coral situation sorted out. The tank is a mess at the moment. Moving all the rock out obviously created a sandstorm. I couldn't move the rock into a wet container, so basically as soon as I could I just lumped the rock back into the tank, without any scaping. A combination of the odd dead body decomposing and the stirring of the sand has led to a Dino outbreak. I shall perform a lot of water changes over the next week, re-scape the rocks, and even use the Vibrant as I haven't used it yet, to see if it helps get rid of the Dinos. The crazy thing is that the few corals I have all seem to be thriving amidst all this carnage. I shall use the fish-free time to get the tank settled, and introduce more corals.
I still have two fish in the DT. The Orange Spotted Goby and the Six Line Wrasse. Both seem to be unaffected at the moment. I think when I removed all the rock and caught all the fish, these two were hidden in the sand. With the sandstorm it was difficult to see much anyway, and there was no way I could find them. It might sound cruel, but they just have to try and survive whatever it is that is in the tank.
The plan now is to leave the tank 'fallow'. No fish for a minimum of 8 weeks. There is some debate as to whether this works or not. It all goes back to the old argument of whether parasites etc are 'introduced' into a tank, or are they always there anyway, and something 'triggers' them? I don't think anyone really knows.
This in fact gives me the opportunity to get the Coral situation sorted out. The tank is a mess at the moment. Moving all the rock out obviously created a sandstorm. I couldn't move the rock into a wet container, so basically as soon as I could I just lumped the rock back into the tank, without any scaping. A combination of the odd dead body decomposing and the stirring of the sand has led to a Dino outbreak. I shall perform a lot of water changes over the next week, re-scape the rocks, and even use the Vibrant as I haven't used it yet, to see if it helps get rid of the Dinos. The crazy thing is that the few corals I have all seem to be thriving amidst all this carnage. I shall use the fish-free time to get the tank settled, and introduce more corals.
I still have two fish in the DT. The Orange Spotted Goby and the Six Line Wrasse. Both seem to be unaffected at the moment. I think when I removed all the rock and caught all the fish, these two were hidden in the sand. With the sandstorm it was difficult to see much anyway, and there was no way I could find them. It might sound cruel, but they just have to try and survive whatever it is that is in the tank.
It's worthwhile talking about the logistics of the treatment.
First off, the containers. If you get to the stage where a breakdown is necessary you'll need a container large enough to hold your rocks, plus enough water to keep them wet, warm and alive. Don't forget you also have to keep attached corals alive as well. I'd suggest a 200l container is needed for this, plus powerhead, plus heater.
Next the hospital tank. The bigger the better obviously, but I would suggest for the occupants of a S-650 you'd need a minimum of 100l tank, plus powerhead, plus heater and also an Air Stone as the Meds tend to reduce the Oxygen in the water, plus this will help with surface movement to aid gas exchange.
You'll also need a spare container. As you remove water from the DT for the hospital tank, you'll need to replace it, just like a water change. That would be another 100l container, with another powerhead and possibly a heater. When I complete a water change I tend to just put the new water into the Sump, and then use the Chiller/Heater to bring it up to temperature before turning on the Return Pump.
Other smaller containers will be needed for things like Freshwater Dips etc, plus any equipment used for the hospital tank just be kept separate from the stuff you use in the DT to avoid any cross-contamination. Also, buy a couple of cheap thermometers, as you'll need to keep track of the water temperature in various locations ie. Hospital Tank, water change tank, dipping bowls etc etc.
I was not prepared for any of this, hence why when I took the rock out, I had to put it back ASAP as I didn't have a wet container to keep it in, and time was of the essence.
First off, the containers. If you get to the stage where a breakdown is necessary you'll need a container large enough to hold your rocks, plus enough water to keep them wet, warm and alive. Don't forget you also have to keep attached corals alive as well. I'd suggest a 200l container is needed for this, plus powerhead, plus heater.
Next the hospital tank. The bigger the better obviously, but I would suggest for the occupants of a S-650 you'd need a minimum of 100l tank, plus powerhead, plus heater and also an Air Stone as the Meds tend to reduce the Oxygen in the water, plus this will help with surface movement to aid gas exchange.
You'll also need a spare container. As you remove water from the DT for the hospital tank, you'll need to replace it, just like a water change. That would be another 100l container, with another powerhead and possibly a heater. When I complete a water change I tend to just put the new water into the Sump, and then use the Chiller/Heater to bring it up to temperature before turning on the Return Pump.
Other smaller containers will be needed for things like Freshwater Dips etc, plus any equipment used for the hospital tank just be kept separate from the stuff you use in the DT to avoid any cross-contamination. Also, buy a couple of cheap thermometers, as you'll need to keep track of the water temperature in various locations ie. Hospital Tank, water change tank, dipping bowls etc etc.
I was not prepared for any of this, hence why when I took the rock out, I had to put it back ASAP as I didn't have a wet container to keep it in, and time was of the essence.
SPR
Well-Known Member
Sounds a right nightmare does that. I can't even imagine doing it in my tank, in fact I don't think I would be able to or want to even try. Survival of the fittest comes to mind!
I've got loads of containers infact I've got around 500litres of RODI stored. It makes me feel comfortable!
I've been reading up on some of this and the fish diseases and treatments following your problems etc.
There are several treatments which are reef safe for the common problems like velvet, ich etc.
This one looks quiet good and has lots reviews online and it's readily available in UK etc.
https://www.polyplab.com/collections/all-products/products/medic
I've got loads of containers infact I've got around 500litres of RODI stored. It makes me feel comfortable!
I've been reading up on some of this and the fish diseases and treatments following your problems etc.
There are several treatments which are reef safe for the common problems like velvet, ich etc.
This one looks quiet good and has lots reviews online and it's readily available in UK etc.
https://www.polyplab.com/collections/all-products/products/medic
Yeah. It seems that there are more and more 'reef safe' medications being developed. Maybe the old tried and tested methods (ie. removal of fish into a hospital tank) are in the past? I've just received the Ruby Reef Rally, which says it is a reef safe medication against both Velvet and Flukes, but I haven't tried it. The Reef Rally was yet another example of what happens when the excreta hits the fan. After extensive reading, I thought I'd give it a go. However, I found just one shop in the UK that sold it, but that shop had a 'sister' shop in the Czech Republic. It wasn't available in Germany. Looking online I found that for 16 euros I could get next day delivery........the reality is that after paying that money it still took four days to arrive! Too late.
I will now always have a stock of Medication at hand for Velvet, Ich and Flukes. They all have expiration dates, but if they reach those dates without being used, I'd be a happy man and just replace the stock. I found the LFS to be a complete waste of time for medication, or even advice. Top Tip Shaun. Get a medical stock in place. Trying the Reef Safe medications just has to be a better alternative than a strip down.
One LFS, where I have spent literally hundreds of Euros just told me the story of the Public Aquarium in Munster, that lost everything to Flukes. The guy then crossed his arms, smiled at me, and said, "good luck" ! I will not ever go there again.
How do 'things' get into your tank? When I removed all my rock, I found a largish (8cm) Bristle Worm. If there is one, there will be more. Now, I started the tank with dry rock. Every frag I've put in gets dipped before it goes in........yet they've managed to get into the tank somehow.