What is the difference
- Thread starter Koda2007
- Start date
Thanks Framerguy.
One of the reasons I was asking was that I lost a few acro's from the tip down a while ago. I thought that bleaching would be the obvious answer to dying from above. The problem i have is that they were originally kept at high tank level under 400watts 14000k MH
My tank is 300watts 14000k + 110 watts T5's with guismen 60% 6500K and 40% 22000k bulbs. I would presume my lighting is inferior or on par with the LFS therefore I believed that bleaching was not the answer in my case. Is there anything else that could cause dying from tip down.
All my parameters were fine triple checked at 3 different LFS
Thanks
One of the reasons I was asking was that I lost a few acro's from the tip down a while ago. I thought that bleaching would be the obvious answer to dying from above. The problem i have is that they were originally kept at high tank level under 400watts 14000k MH
My tank is 300watts 14000k + 110 watts T5's with guismen 60% 6500K and 40% 22000k bulbs. I would presume my lighting is inferior or on par with the LFS therefore I believed that bleaching was not the answer in my case. Is there anything else that could cause dying from tip down.
All my parameters were fine triple checked at 3 different LFS
Thanks
mps9506
Well-Known Member
If you already know how to tell the difference please disregard 
There is a major difference in bleaching and RTN/STN. If you look carefully at the acro colony it will be obvious which on it is, regardless of it starting at the base or the tips. this will give you a baseline of what steps should be taken next IME.
Bleaching even after it occurs can be reversed, healed whatever you wanna call it. If your acros still has tissue and you can still see the polyps but it looks white, it is bleaching. this can occur from the top bottom middle etc. Often times the underside of your colonies that don't receive light or good water flow will bleach and die off this may or may not be preventable. Some of it is natural as the coral keeps growing outwards and upwards.
If the entire colony is bleaching you can probably attribute it to stress caused by any of many factors such as large temperature fluctuations, major hcanges or swings in pH, lighting etc. This is why sometimes colonies will bleach shortly after being added to a new aquarium. There might be a significant enough difference in light, temp, pH or something else that will cause it to expel it's zooxanthellae.
A safe bet would be to either move it lower in the tank or decrease your lighting for a period of time to help acclimate the coral to your tank conditions. As well as ensure your tank temps are not fluctuating huge levels in a short period of time and make sure your water chemistry is near NSW levels.
RTN/STN is a whole nother creature
I can't tell you exactly what causes it. Stress, parasites, predation, disease all appear to be viable factors in tissue necrosis of acros. I would think it occurs more often than not in wild colonies that are moved into aquariums than second or third generation fragments. Although I have no proof whatsoever.
Tissue necrosis, is just that, you will see the tissue floating off of the coral as it dies. It can occur quickly (RTN) or slowly (STN). It's painful to watch and will make you feel helpless when it happens. You can try to frag pieces of the acro that are still healthy and hope those sections hold on.
As far as the conditions you describe. Moving from higher to lower light doesn't usually result in bleaching. Maybe some browning out or maybe less intense or maybe even more intense coloration.
you mention your water parameters checked fine, but I'd be interested in what the actual numbers are for Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH, Calcium, alk, SG and temp.
There is a major difference in bleaching and RTN/STN. If you look carefully at the acro colony it will be obvious which on it is, regardless of it starting at the base or the tips. this will give you a baseline of what steps should be taken next IME.
Bleaching even after it occurs can be reversed, healed whatever you wanna call it. If your acros still has tissue and you can still see the polyps but it looks white, it is bleaching. this can occur from the top bottom middle etc. Often times the underside of your colonies that don't receive light or good water flow will bleach and die off this may or may not be preventable. Some of it is natural as the coral keeps growing outwards and upwards.
If the entire colony is bleaching you can probably attribute it to stress caused by any of many factors such as large temperature fluctuations, major hcanges or swings in pH, lighting etc. This is why sometimes colonies will bleach shortly after being added to a new aquarium. There might be a significant enough difference in light, temp, pH or something else that will cause it to expel it's zooxanthellae.
A safe bet would be to either move it lower in the tank or decrease your lighting for a period of time to help acclimate the coral to your tank conditions. As well as ensure your tank temps are not fluctuating huge levels in a short period of time and make sure your water chemistry is near NSW levels.
RTN/STN is a whole nother creature
I can't tell you exactly what causes it. Stress, parasites, predation, disease all appear to be viable factors in tissue necrosis of acros. I would think it occurs more often than not in wild colonies that are moved into aquariums than second or third generation fragments. Although I have no proof whatsoever.
Tissue necrosis, is just that, you will see the tissue floating off of the coral as it dies. It can occur quickly (RTN) or slowly (STN). It's painful to watch and will make you feel helpless when it happens. You can try to frag pieces of the acro that are still healthy and hope those sections hold on.
As far as the conditions you describe. Moving from higher to lower light doesn't usually result in bleaching. Maybe some browning out or maybe less intense or maybe even more intense coloration.
you mention your water parameters checked fine, but I'd be interested in what the actual numbers are for Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH, Calcium, alk, SG and temp.
Thanks mps9606.
At the time of my losses my parmameters were as follows
Sg 1.026
Amm o
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0 - 5ppm
Phosphate 0
Ph 8.2
Dkh 9
Calcium 480
Mg 1400
As mentioned triple checked. One LFS owner ( respected ) even came to my house as he did not believe I was having probs with all the water tests he did and nothing showed. He said that he would be chuffed with my reef and was at a loss as to why my sps corals were dying.
Weekly 10% water change with Red Sea Pro and R/O water.
Evap tpooed off with R/O water nd Kalk. No other additives used.
Definately not RTN
I apologise for not answering sooner but in bed ( uk ) when you posted then been out with family.
Thanks again for input.
At the time of my losses my parmameters were as follows
Sg 1.026
Amm o
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0 - 5ppm
Phosphate 0
Ph 8.2
Dkh 9
Calcium 480
Mg 1400
As mentioned triple checked. One LFS owner ( respected ) even came to my house as he did not believe I was having probs with all the water tests he did and nothing showed. He said that he would be chuffed with my reef and was at a loss as to why my sps corals were dying.
Weekly 10% water change with Red Sea Pro and R/O water.
Evap tpooed off with R/O water nd Kalk. No other additives used.
Definately not RTN
I apologise for not answering sooner but in bed ( uk ) when you posted then been out with family.
Thanks again for input.
kathywithbirds
Well-Known Member
following...
what's "chuffed" mean?
what's "chuffed" mean?
Good morning to you all.
Well impressed prow with your 'british thing' dialect. I will try not to use english slang again, I sometimes forget I am not on a UK forum.
I am trying to find photo's as stated but having a very busy day.
I earlier stated that it was Acro's that were dying from tip down it was infact Monti's aswell.
I have been keeping all types of fish for 30 years and started keeping marines again after a 15 year absence. The reef had been set up about 3 years with a few fish and softies. I felt I needed to do this as reef keeping had changed that much in 15 years, it was like just beginning again and I needed to find my feet again.
Anyway after 3 years of softies growng out of my reef and not losing 1 single fish or invert I wanted a bigger challenge, hence Monti's and Acro's. A lot of softies were exchanged for fragged Monti's and Acro's. All opened up well ( polyps ) and appeared to be doing fine for 3 - 4 weeks and then they started receeding from tips down. At this stage water checked at LFS. No probs.
Put extra carbon in. Over the next few weeks they continued to receed to the point of no return.
Left reef with no Sps for a number of months and did 15% water changes. Checked water for every posssible thing you could test for. All tests perfect.
Tried some new frags of Monti's and Acro's which did well for a few months and then the same happened again.
Water checked again and this is when the owner of a LFS came to inspect setup and as already stated was well impressed and could not understand the problem. When I am ready the LFS owner is givng me a couple of Acro's and Monti's free of charge but I do not want to kill any more corals. I would like to get to the cause of the problem first.
A few other facts
Reef is 120 uk gallons
Nitrate reductor ( large one )
Deltec mce 600 protien skimmer
Aqua medic calcium reactor
phosphate reactor
small sump with cheato and other macro algae
coraline algae growth is unbelievable
Well impressed prow with your 'british thing' dialect. I will try not to use english slang again, I sometimes forget I am not on a UK forum.
I am trying to find photo's as stated but having a very busy day.
I earlier stated that it was Acro's that were dying from tip down it was infact Monti's aswell.
I have been keeping all types of fish for 30 years and started keeping marines again after a 15 year absence. The reef had been set up about 3 years with a few fish and softies. I felt I needed to do this as reef keeping had changed that much in 15 years, it was like just beginning again and I needed to find my feet again.
Anyway after 3 years of softies growng out of my reef and not losing 1 single fish or invert I wanted a bigger challenge, hence Monti's and Acro's. A lot of softies were exchanged for fragged Monti's and Acro's. All opened up well ( polyps ) and appeared to be doing fine for 3 - 4 weeks and then they started receeding from tips down. At this stage water checked at LFS. No probs.
Put extra carbon in. Over the next few weeks they continued to receed to the point of no return.
Left reef with no Sps for a number of months and did 15% water changes. Checked water for every posssible thing you could test for. All tests perfect.
Tried some new frags of Monti's and Acro's which did well for a few months and then the same happened again.
Water checked again and this is when the owner of a LFS came to inspect setup and as already stated was well impressed and could not understand the problem. When I am ready the LFS owner is givng me a couple of Acro's and Monti's free of charge but I do not want to kill any more corals. I would like to get to the cause of the problem first.
A few other facts
Reef is 120 uk gallons
Nitrate reductor ( large one )
Deltec mce 600 protien skimmer
Aqua medic calcium reactor
phosphate reactor
small sump with cheato and other macro algae
coraline algae growth is unbelievable
mps9506
Well-Known Member
Well water params look good assuming they are using good test kits.
Temperature is something you want to monitor as well, make sure there are no drastic swings in temp from day to night. same with pH. Check day and night levels.
You didn't mention, are you loosing colonies or frags? Wild collected or captive grown?
Another thing, what type of acclimation procedures do you folllow? I have found SPS pretty tolerant of lazy acclimation, but it may help to drip acclimate. More importantly though are you starting the corals at the top or down near the bottom of your tank, and/or reducing the photoperiod while they adapt to tank conditions?
Temperature is something you want to monitor as well, make sure there are no drastic swings in temp from day to night. same with pH. Check day and night levels.
You didn't mention, are you loosing colonies or frags? Wild collected or captive grown?
Another thing, what type of acclimation procedures do you folllow? I have found SPS pretty tolerant of lazy acclimation, but it may help to drip acclimate. More importantly though are you starting the corals at the top or down near the bottom of your tank, and/or reducing the photoperiod while they adapt to tank conditions?
Thanks for the replies
Temp is kept at 78
Calcium at the time was 480ppm
Mag was 1400
Dkh was 9
The lights are 2 x 150 watts 14000k metal halides 8 hours
and Deltec aquablue + 2 x 55 watts ( 60% 6500k + 40% 22000k ) for 6 hours, 4 hours are combined with MH.
As mentioned earlier the LFS they came from had them under 400w MH I think it was a Ushio bulb. The only difference between both tanks may be the length of time of lighting ie mine would be lit longer.
One thing that has puzzled me is that this LFS got some colour variations of Tubipora which are classed over here as being on the delicate side. From putting them into his system they receeded quite fast. He asked me to take them to see if they would do anything in my tank. Within a week they had settled and within two weeks they were shooting out new growth. I have supplied him with numerous frags.
I also have a Bali xenia which are supposed to be delicate, it came as 2 pieces on a piece of rock there now 16 pieces on the rock in the space of 3-4 months.
So there cannot be to much wrong with my reef. I hope !!!!
Temp is kept at 78
Calcium at the time was 480ppm
Mag was 1400
Dkh was 9
The lights are 2 x 150 watts 14000k metal halides 8 hours
and Deltec aquablue + 2 x 55 watts ( 60% 6500k + 40% 22000k ) for 6 hours, 4 hours are combined with MH.
As mentioned earlier the LFS they came from had them under 400w MH I think it was a Ushio bulb. The only difference between both tanks may be the length of time of lighting ie mine would be lit longer.
One thing that has puzzled me is that this LFS got some colour variations of Tubipora which are classed over here as being on the delicate side. From putting them into his system they receeded quite fast. He asked me to take them to see if they would do anything in my tank. Within a week they had settled and within two weeks they were shooting out new growth. I have supplied him with numerous frags.
I also have a Bali xenia which are supposed to be delicate, it came as 2 pieces on a piece of rock there now 16 pieces on the rock in the space of 3-4 months.
So there cannot be to much wrong with my reef. I hope !!!!
Thank mps9506
Various test kits have been used salifert, Red Sea and TMC as well as others
There is 1 -2 degree change but would think that this would be acceptable.
Ph is quite stable over a 24 period as at the time was dosing kalk at night with top up water
All corals were frags. Not very often that I buy wild corals.
I acclimatise the corals over a number of hours, not a drip system just very small amounts of water replaced at a time, with the old water being discarded.
Various test kits have been used salifert, Red Sea and TMC as well as others
There is 1 -2 degree change but would think that this would be acceptable.
Ph is quite stable over a 24 period as at the time was dosing kalk at night with top up water
All corals were frags. Not very often that I buy wild corals.
I acclimatise the corals over a number of hours, not a drip system just very small amounts of water replaced at a time, with the old water being discarded.
you also asked about placement, I normally placed mid reef as do honestly believe that my lighting is inferior to where they came from. He is the only LFS that I know that can run hi system at 0ppm nitrates. I always test LFS water on purchasing for ph, nitrates, phophates, hardness. He is the only one that has tested 0ppm every time for nitrates.
mps9506
Well-Known Member
Gonna take a stab in the dark, but try shortening your acclimation time.
instead of dripping for a few hours try acclimating over an hour or so. Bagged water can develop low pH and when opened can result in high ammonia build up and low O2 which may stress the corals even more during the acclimation period.
To tell the truth many frags I have gotten I've done a quick acclimation, just temperature acclimate the bag in the sump open up the bag pull the coral out into the air, let it slime over, then stick it in the tank. I've never had issues with this process on my SPS frags in the past.
I always recomend a 1/2-1 hour acclimation though to be safe.
Also try to get those nitrates down to zero, either macroalgae or cleaning filter socks more often or whatever it takes.
instead of dripping for a few hours try acclimating over an hour or so. Bagged water can develop low pH and when opened can result in high ammonia build up and low O2 which may stress the corals even more during the acclimation period.
To tell the truth many frags I have gotten I've done a quick acclimation, just temperature acclimate the bag in the sump open up the bag pull the coral out into the air, let it slime over, then stick it in the tank. I've never had issues with this process on my SPS frags in the past.
I always recomend a 1/2-1 hour acclimation though to be safe.
Also try to get those nitrates down to zero, either macroalgae or cleaning filter socks more often or whatever it takes.