The eye candy trap caught me big time

[David]

Hi there everybody.

As some of you know, a few years back I was involved in the commercial breeding of fish; mainly cichlids, but marine also. I also had my own little marine set up, but where I live, trying to get decent equipment and even a look at a decent tank was hard, so it wasn't an overwelming exercise, but interested me none the less.

Unfortunately, a bit of a falling out with my (then) current employer about ethics and breeding practises left me quite disgruntled at the whole show, so I got out of it altogether.

Then about a month ago, I stumbled upon this interesting little spot of the Net, and I must say, the tanks on display and the earnest and knowledgeble discussions have quite turned me around on the subject. I may not agree with local capture and breeding practises, but I'll be stuffed if that's going to stop me attempting a tank as nice as you guys and gals have.

So, the engineer arrives this week to check out the modifications to the house (sigh), so I can move my workshop and put in an aquarium. HURRAH!

So, this is something along the lines I was thinking of:
(and I've converted to the old money so you'll know what I'm talking about )

L 5.5 x W 3.5 x H 3 feet. 360 gallon display.
L 3.5 x W 2.0 x H 15". 55 gallon sump.
With the possibility of a 65 gallon cube also plumbed into the sump for sea horses. I like sea horses.

For lights I was thinking along the lines of the Aquamedic AquaSunlight Classic, which features:

2 x 250 watt metal halides with 13,000 K bulbs
2 x 30 watt fluros 'white'
1 x 25 watt variable incadescent moonlight bulb
All hooked up to a lunar cycle lighting computer.

And a 3 foot double fluro unit for the sump.

Also an Aquamedic Calcium Reactor 1000, with an electronic pH controller.

I'm not going to skim unless someone can really convince me otherwise, but instead use the sump as some kind of Frankenstein like algae scrubber.

For the plumbing I've got to crunch some numbers as I'm trying something new with a glazier who has tried something similar but not quite the same:
The tank will be a 3 side walk around, with side closest to the wall to have an overflow like set up built from glass directly into the tank, to save drilling holes, which I really don't like. A vaccum like connector to take the water down to the sump. I'll draw a picture if I get around to it.

I'd also like to try making plumbing back into the tank via two spray bars sneaking in the corners of the tank and running close to the bottom. But, get this, I want to use dried and hardened bamboo as the pipeline. Although I haven't researched this at all, I will do to make sure something adverse won't happen to it in the salt water.

I'm also considering some kind of biological filtration, ie bio balls.

Now, before you grab your exorcism kits, let me explain: I'm thinking along the lines that I'm going to get some clowns, because they do hold some kind of emotional stranglehold on me. And no doubt they will breed. Those bio balls there provide a little insurance policy about the increased bio load that many little fish growing into big fish create. As well 6 times a day feeds and what not, cause they always breed when you haven't got a spare tank handy. I gah-ron-tee. But if that's the case, I might run it on a seperate circuit with a protein skimmer should the need arise later on, I can just turn a valve and away we go.

Okay, that's all I can think of for now.

I'm an odd type of person. I prefer to take the road less travelled, to try things that other people say can't be done, and I encourage others to do the same, no matter what it is. Some people say I'm a pioneer. Other people say that I'm bitter and twisted and waging a personal war against 'The Man'. :columbo: So I'll try any new ideas that I can reason out to be successful.

Now what I want from you guys is comments, suggestions, debate, questions, anything.

It'll be a couple of weeks before my workshop is moved, and then it'll take a couple of weeks for the tank to cure once the specifics are verified, so if you guys can help me nut out any problems in the mean time, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys.

 

[Playa]

David there are a lot of people in here capable to help you with your questions.

Have a blast on your new enterprise.

Cheers!

Luis

 

[David]

Heh, thanks Playa. I didn't realise that jumble up there was so long. Whoops.

:smirk:

 

[BoomerD]

David, welcome to Sanctuary! Going to join the nano folks with your baby tank huh? Impressive dimensions. Ought to make quite a reef. Some of your "innovative" ideas might open a few eyes, but I'm certainly not one to tell you "YOU CAN"T DO THAT!!" I figure it's your tank, do what ever works for you. Just be sure to post pics of the construction and keep us up to date on how things work out.
Glad ya found us.

 

[mick77]

Good God, do you have a MIT grad to hook everything up? JK, everything sounds great and I can't wait to see it. Good luck!

 

[David]

Thanks BoomerD. I'll give the nano team a call .

Something more for thought, I'm thinking of making some of the live rock from concrete (for structure). I saw a tank the other day that used nothing but because the sole inhabitant was what looked like a sooty grunter (but I'm not sure) and tore the natural stuff to bits. I was moderately impressed.

If anyone would care to comment on the concrete live rock or lighting; particularly in relation to penetration through to 3 feet...?

Thanks guys. Pretty speedy on the comments I must say.

 

[addict]

Sounds great!

Only thing that concerns me is the depth of the tank... unless you have gorilla-like arms that hang down to your knees, you're going to have to invest in a mask and snorkel to do any aquascaping.
I'm in the middle of the acquisition phase for my new 120, with parts coming in daily, so I know how it is jonesing for that new tank.

Keep us posted on what you're doing... you've got me interested already.

Also, with a 36" depth you'll probably need 400w halides if you intend to keep any corals (or anemones for the clowns).

 

[Maxx]

wow.....Its too bad you don't think big...
okay, coupla quick thoughts just off the top of my head....
Is this a reef tank, or a fish only tank? If its a FO tank, dont waste the money on the lights, they dont need it.
If its a reef....
Lights.....you can do it that way, but as reefer adict pointed out, you're not gonna get all that light down thru three feet of water. Also, you're buying a name w/ that set up. You will save money if you get 400 watt components, and mount them to your custom made, (just like your tank) hood. I also think the NO bulbs, (30 watt flourescents) are gonna be useless over a tank that size.
Skimmers.....do a quick search on this site about protein skimmers...read what comes up.....re-think your position on not having a skimmer......
Algae scrubbers....tough to do require a alot of space, you might have to get a bigger sump. you might honestly have to get a bigger sump just to house everything for a tank this large. JMO
Okay, bioballs......down and dirty speach...
There are two types of bacteria (for the purposes of this discussion)....aerobic, which will live in oxygenated environments, and anaerobic which do not. Aerobic will utilize ammonia and nitrite, and convert them to nitrates.....fish are okay w/ elevated levels of nitrates, corals and anemones are not. Anaaerobic bacteria utilizes the nitrates and gets them out of the tank. Bioballs being an oxygenated environment, create a large population of aerobic bacteria....which equals lots of nitrates. Again if theis is an F/O set up, no worries....reef...different story.

These are just thoughts floating around while I'm ready to go to bed....sorry if they don't make sense right now, or if I seem curt(as in rude, not the moderator) and unhelpful. I will post more tomorrow after I've slept a lil bit more.
Nick

 

[Brucey]

David ..... sounds very impressive and if you get it working, it will be amazing. Don't listen to Nick about Bio-balls .... (He doesn't know anything .... he hee ... Only joking my old mucker). No, honestly, I am in the monority here, but I believe if you have enough anorobic area's then bio-balls don't make any difference. They just move the denitrifcation away from the surface of the LR to the balls .... but there you go, small problem really.

I think you have one VERY big problem and not many people planning BIG tanks realize it until too late. I've been planning a 12x3x3 for quite a while now, the house, the room and location are all in place .... just waiting for money now but my other half has it all tied up for a few years with weddings and babies. The big problem is evaporation. To give you some idea my 180 evaporates 7 Litres of water a day. I have fans and plumbing all in place to vent this directly outside. My 1000 will have a 180Refuge and 120sump both in a very airy gurage and I will be installing 2x industrial fans to vent the moisture directly outside. Don't underestimate the damage this cn cause to your house. I'm guessing 500Galls with evap approx 20 Litres a day (Depending on your lights). Put 20 Litres of water in a bucket and imagine throwing that on your carpet every day and you get some idea of what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to put you off mate, I wish you every success but a years careful planning will be worth decades of fulfillment.
Brucey
Oh by the way, welcome

 

[middletonmark]

Go for it!

But --- another rehash of some opinions above.

36" deep means you need a snorkel mask to get to the bottom. That can be a real pain to aquascape ... esp as the center of the tank [if 3.5 feet wide] is a long way in. Probably will need some semi-catwalk to get in there. And trust me, you'll need to sometime.

Lights - overkill if fish only. Not enough if reef, not nearly enough. With that depth, you'll want 400w MH's ... and given each covers about a 2 x 2' area ... more than two.
Also, the NO's over the sump ... if it's just for lights, sure, a shoplight will do. If you want to create a refugium, you'll need more intensity.

Breeding clowns in that tank ... sounds like a great idea, except their planktonic stage will get swept thru the overflow and lost in the ATS and bioballs. If you're really into breeding them, pick up Joyve Wilkerson's `clownfish' book ... really one of the main tomes for people starting to breed them. Pretty much all breeding like that happens in small tanks, as all the flow will munch the babies during their initial stages.

As for the ATS ... an expensive route to consume nutrients. Given many marine algae's cell-wall is thin ... not the most efficient method IMO. Also leaves the nutrients around to decompose before removal .... the reason why this hobby has had so much success in the last 5-10 years I attribute to the introduction of good skimmers ... removing material before it has a chance to decay and release nutrients. Even if fish-only, I think a skimmer will help you out greatly ... and a refugium is a much cheaper and more interesting form of algae-farm. My opinion, but this has been successful for a lot of people and IMO is a cheaper route.

Bio-balls ... fine if fish-only. If reef - just won't do what you want [de-nitrification] ... also will act as a debris-trap, requiring cleaning out periodically [gross!] and fostering nutrient decomposition which leads to lots of algae food in the tank.

The evaporation suggestion is dead-on too. You'll be amazed.

---
Lots of luck with the venture. I'd search for the links on Mojoreef's tank ... as he has one of the nicest designed and kept large reefs around. I'm sure he'd be good for some suggestions ... if not good design ideas as I find that I use a lot of things he did as ways to modify my own small tanks.

Only other thing - PVC is an ideal medium to use for water conduit. Most everyone on this board uses it with no side-effects ... being it's for potable water, it's a tried and true method. Go ahead and do as you will ... just draw on what many have found to be indispensable [and getting the pipe fittings you need at the local hardware store is mighty handy].

Other than that ... I'd really suggest in investing in a few recent good books on marine systems. I'm sure there's a lot of suggestions, but I'll start with a few ... for refugiums/inverts - Calfo and Fenner `marine invertebrates' ... for general info I liked Fenner's `conscientous marine aquarist' ... if reef eric borneman's `aquarium corals' ... for interesting reef setup ideas anthony calfo's `book of coral propagation'. There are more, but all these gave me a lot of good understanding, selection ideas, and setup info that saved a lot of headaches.

I'd read all you can, search here, ask questions on every part of this setup [and figure your future plans, as if going reef in another year - you don't want a room full of now-unused equipment .... this hobby can get expensive when doing that].

Research and planning will save you a lot of headaches ... every step done beforehand to reduce livestock loss, and especially to reduce algae issues makes this a cheaper, easier, and more fun hobby [less sticking your arm in the tank, fun as that can be].

Good luck with it!

 

[Montanareefer]

Wow! Sounds like a great adventure is ahead for you! Keep us posted on the progress of the tank and pics!

 

[wooddood]

i pretty much agree with what was said above,i definately agree you need to re think on the skimmer,i would'nt go with out one after the tank cycles so you have some time there.personally i think it's a dream tank my friend.also i agree on the 400 watt mh's thats a deep tank but only if your gonna keep corals and such.lastly sounds like a sweet set up to me.keep us posted on your progress im with ya all the way and good luck.

 

[Gina]

This should be a very interesting thread! I am new to all this and everyone covered the thoughts I immediatley had. Only concerning lights and skimmer and size of sump.

I just want to say for now..good luck with all your planning and seeing your ideas come to life! I'm sure you are very excited!
Looking forward to see how things progress and work out!
Keep us posted!

 

[tankgirl]

Wow, David! I think you've been bitten by the bug - big time!
Gotta have the skimmer, imo! After lights, it's probably the most important equipment in the whole system!
Also, the single worst mistake I've ever made was getting a tank I couldn't reach the bottom of! In-tank maintainance is a nightmare and sps corals all want to be closer to the light.
Big congrats to you!!!

 

[reefshadow]

Hi, David-

I think that alot of pioneering discoveries have been made by taking the road less travelled, and there is more than one way to set up a successfull system.

I've never made or used any concrete live rock, but I know it can be done. I think extreme care needs to be taken in curing it though, as it will make your ph unnaturally high if not cured properly. I think once it's set it needs to be soaked and rinsed for a couple of months to be safe. I'm also not sure how much area for fostering anaerobic bacteria it would provide, unless you could figure out a way to make it really porous. But if you seed it with premium live rock it would eventually become indistinuishable on the surface.

I would really think about incorporating a skimmer into your system. I've run systems w/ and w/o and have seen the difference firsthand. Alot of naysayers will argue that they remove good compounds with the bad (planktonic material, some elements, etc...) but my refugium is teeming with life and my corals are happy and growing like mad. And iodine, etc is constantly replenished by feeding and water changes.

Not sure about the bamboo??? That's a totally new idea to me. I bet it would look cool, but honestly I would worry about organic plant material leeching over time, especially tannins and compounds that would acidify the water. Even if dried forever, I would think it would still decay over time as organic material does. I bet somebody could make a mint manufacturing decorative pvc... hmmmmm....

Have fun with the planning of your tank. It sounds great!

-Becca

 

[David]

Woah, nice responses every body.

Sorry I'm a bit slow on the replies, but a day off is something to be treasured and taken full advantage of. Now, where to start.....

mick77: I just hooked up a Creative Inspire 5700 surround sound system to my computer..... If it's any harder to do than that, I'm leaving town. Really.

reefer addict: Good point about the depth, from armpit to hand I fall 7 centimetres short, or nearly 3 inches in the old money, which should put me in the half monkey category, and will be harder even more so if I have to reach towards the middle of the tank. Design flaw number 1. And comments on the lights is what I was eager for. Design flaw number 2.

Maxx: Yeah, I was under no impression that the mighty 60 watts of fluro wasn't going the distance, but I was counting on more of the gradual change of light (apparently with the light computer they come on before and after the MHs switch on and off), and the mixing of 13000K bulbs with this supposed 'white' light.

This is going to be a reef system, and I'm still debating the skimmer with myself about running it full time, or having it in a circuit that I can switch on at will (if the reef hits the fan). Plus, I have had such alarmingly good success with algae scrubbers, I might try it with the skimmer on back up first and see how I go. Besides, adding things slowly I shouldn't get into too much trouble..... Should I?

Brucey: Yeah, I was thinking about the evaporation, especially seeing as how I saw some web site with a mammoth tank that nearly destroyed this guys home with condensation. Thankfully (HA!) I live in such a humid environment that evaporation is only a fraction of what most people get. How high? Well, about 60% is the lowest I've ever seen it, but it may have been less. Some of you English guys come over in winter and pass out from heat stroke, because the high humidity doesn't allow the sweat to evaporate, and you end up cooking yourselves. Don't take that the wrong way, it's just how it is.

middletonmark: Okay, another one for not enough lighting, another one for too deep. Man, it's either change the design, or, figure out how to get in there.... Well, if I can figure out this Creative surround sound system I should be able to figure out a way in there.... Although decreasing the height would drop the glass thickness from 15mm to 12mm (I think) decreasing the cost of the tank drastically..... Good work guys, the problems I find out about now are the problems that I don't have to deal with later on.

Once again, the algae scrubber and no skimmer has been so good to me in the past that it's such a hard option to give up.... Although the amount of saying otherwise will probably convince me in the end.

Oh, and with the clown fish breeding, I'm a little familiar with it, and I have a secret weapon.... Well, actually, it's not much of a secret, but it's hard to explain, so I might draw it up later on. And alas if I could get hold of some decent books in this town.... <sigh>

Montanareefer: Thanks!

wooddood: Thanks guy, I'm beginning to think that I don't have enough lighting for some reef action

Gina: Thanks to you too!

tankgirl: I'm begining to get scared of the tank, that it might be a leviathan that I lose my life to with a tragic slip one day.

Tell me, do you do water changes with that Viking Helmet? That is probably the greatest fashion accessory on the planet IMO.

reefshadow: Yeah, I used to have an outdoor cichlid pond until a bearded dragon ate all my fish (I'll find him one day ) and I didn't seal it and put water straight into it. Funnily enough, my pH stayed at a constant 8.6 even though I let leaves fall in it and decompose. I didn't figure it out at the time, but I figure it was leeching lime and calcium carbonate. Whoops.

I don't know if anyone else has tried it, but I'm think of using some kind of compound to mix in that will be disolved using an acetic acid dip..... Maybe even crushed coral would suffice, to make it more porous, and - yay! - more surface area. But I'm figuring about 6 weeks curing it, which I might get to excited to wait that long, but I'll give it a try anyway.

Okay, if this skimmer business keeps up, it'll be added to the shopping list for sure... but as a backup. I'd like to let nature (or my perverse attempt at imitation) have a crack at it first.

Yeah, the bamboo I thought would look awesome, cause, really, that's the only reason for it. I thought of it because a friend of mine told me that a one inch piece of bamboo stood vertically, will resist more force than a similar piece of concrete. I'm not sure how true that is, but the Samurai used to wear armor fashioned from the stuff, that is better than any other body armor we have today.... Although they think that might have been from a mini ice age that made the plants at the time grow more slowly, and more densely, which is also a theory behind why Stratavaruis violins are so darn good, but HOLY OFF TOPIC BATMAN. :columbo:

I'm about to do some testing in the next couple of days with a positive displacement pump; most of the pumps used in aquariums are negative displacement, for moving large volumes. Positive is used for pressure (high head). I think. Maybe. Either which, I'm going see how much pressure a piece of bamboo can withstand, that will be test number one. Test number two will be seeing if I can step on the stuff without smashing it (in case of clod footed accident), and I've seen dried bamboo underwater for years and years and not lose it's rigidity, so I'm pretty sure about that :smirk: . The shame is I might have to use PVC joins if I can't find a way to bind them together.

Okay, boys and girls, you've given me something (read: A LOT) to think about it. So the question for today is:

If I were to drop my tank depth to 2 feet 6 inches (and maybe go wider or longer), what should I have my lighting at?

Thanks guys, you've been a great help.

 

[openbrain]

David, what are you going to do with the tank? Are you going with a reef or just fish? That will help you in your decisions. If your going with a reef, You'd need a 400w halide every 2' x2' area with some actinic supplementation depending on the color of the bulbs you decide on. Good luck, keep the pictures coming. I miss this stage of the hobby, it's the most exciting part, imo.

 

[David]

Heh, I thought I put reef in that jumbled mess up there somewhere. Anyway, yes, it shall be a reef, openbrain.

Okay, 400 watt halide per 2 feet square... Well, I'm not putting 9 in there, so I think lighting the middle or front (or maybe even back) which would mean about 3.

Truth be told though, I wouldn't be disappointed if the bottom wasn't covered with coral and anemones. If I had, just for arguments sake, a 5 inch substrate, that's down to 2 feet 7 inches of inhabitable water, which I wouldn't be too strung out if those first 7 inches weren't packed with goodies... Heck, I might decide to try and house a snowflake eel in some crazy low riding cave work or something.

BARGHHHHHHHHHH! :explode: Dilemmas, dilemmas.

Okay, I suppose I really need to be more specific. What should I expect to be able to keep at 2 foot 6 inches deep or 3 feet deep tank, with 2 x 250 watt MHs, or 2 x 400 watt MHs? I'm really getting concerned about having to get my Scuba ticket to be able to clean the tank so 2 feet 6 inches might be the ticket.

This whole lighting jazz is really a problem here. Trying to find anyone at all who has some practical experience with lighting where I live is nigh on impossible, getting stock is very close to that, and I find people around the LFSs here can't keep a freshwater plant tank in good shape let alone clams and corals and anemones.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is thanks guys, I appreciate the help.

Errrr, must sleep. 1:04am , working at 6:00 am. It's going to be one of those I'vegotsandinmyeyes days today.

 

[tankgirl]

Hi David, Worth a mention, tho' you probably already know it? There are some good threads around on what not to add for the first year (anemones, for instance, or anthias or mandarins, because they depend on copious pods to survive).
I think you could keep pretty much anything with your proposed lights; acros, to get the best possible color should be within around 18 inches (say, 45 cm.) of your lights if they're 250 watts.

 

[Maxx]

If you drop the depth of the tank down to 24 inches (2 feet for us Yanks) then you will be able to run 250 w bulbs. This would cut down on your electrical bill and allow you a little more flexibility w/ your lighting choices. Also 250's are cheaper to purchase than 400's. Personally I prefer a shallower, but wider aquarium which would give alot more room to aquascape as opposed to height. Also, you wouldnt have the issues w/ reaching the middle of the aquarium as much...just a thought.
If you're really concerned about the lighting issue, go to the library forum and hit up all the material on lighting....its boring, but you seema like a smart guy so you can makes heads and tails of it all. That will help you out immensely.
HTH,
Nick