Tank Trouble

[Angry Hen]

Hey, I found you guys through a google search and hope you can help me with some challenges I am facing.

I lost one of my Clarkiis, but the real reason I'm writing this is because I've lost many fish, bout 6 in the past 4 months, they had been in the tank from 3 weeks to a 3 month before they died, I'm wonderin if their is something that could be affecting the fish but not the corals, because my corals seem to be flourishing.

Thanks

 

[BoomerD]

Well Burt, I think you've come to the right place.
First of all, :welcomera to Sanctuary!
We'll need a bit more information about your tank in order to help you.

How bigis the tank? How long has it been running? Skimmer? Water parameters? Lighting? Inhabitants? Do you quarantine fish? What substrate do you have if any? Any apparent parasite or disease on the fish? Credit card number and Pin? Oops, never mind that last one. As you will find, in addition to having some of the finest & most knowledgeable people in the hobby here, we've also got our fair share of wise guys too.

Those are some good starting points, many other people will chime in and ask a bunch more questions as we go along.
Glad you made it here.

 

[Angry Hen]

Man you guys are fast. Thanks for the welcome.

Here is some information. I have to run so it may be a while before I get back to your response.

I currently have 29 gallon tank with live rock, argonite sand 4", 1 clarkii, 1 blue damsel, 1 gold head goby, 1 mandarin goby, anemone mushrooms, purple mushrooms, colt coral, frogspawn coral. I have an Aqua Clear 200 filter, 55 watts of Power Compact lighting, and a 100 watt heater. I just moved here from the Naval Air Base in Fallon, Nevada 6 months ago. I do a five gallon water change every two weeks with RO water from the only LFS I've found here. The tank has been up for 5 months.

This is the feeding/dosing schedule from the LFS - blood worms Monday, brine shrimp & algae food Wednsday, then blood worms again on Fiday, add liquid reactor Monday, Wednsday and Friday as well. I add coral vite Saturday, and feed phytoplankton Tuesday and Thursday, this is what the lfs recommended...they feed the same way, maybe they need more food?

Thanks and see you in a bit.

 

[Witfull]

welcome to the Sanctuary! i gotta run to work , but this will give ya a bump, by the time i get home im sure my friends will have ya fixed up!

gotta love Google!

 

[Gina]

Well...first off. I know some people feel a sump is not neccesary but, I would change the Aqua-clear and put in a sump.

I would also increase my lighting. You really don't have enough for corals. Consider getting MH and VHO's.

What kind of testing are you doing? We need to know your parameters.
I also didn't see anything regarding a skimmer in your post. I would advise on getting one. They pull out alot of gunk from your system.
Your Aqua-clear could also be producing Nitrates. I also have heard of Bio-balls doing the same. That is why we got rid of our hang on filter and switched to a sump. The sump also gave us more water volume for our tank and a place to dose, put skimmer, heater and we run carbon in there also. We also top off from the sump.

I don't think it is a good idea right now to have a Mandarin. They need a mature tank with a heavy supply of pods for them to eat. We also wanted to get one and am glad we didn't yet because of that reason. I love those fish! If you plan on keeping him, I would make sure you have some rubble in your tank where the pods can breed and repopulate themselves rapidly.

I would also look into buying an RO/DI unit. You can find some at e-bay at a decent price or check our sponsors and see if any of them carry them.

Like I said previously....we need your S.P. level, temp of tank, chemistry readings etc to get you on the right track.

I am still new myself only 6 mos into this but, I have learned not to take what the LFS tells you as 100% truth. We bought alot of equiptment that when we learned wasn't what we really needed and had to upgrade which meant even more money.

If they tell you something and your not sure if they are correct...come here first and ask the members what they think. Then make your choice!

Please give us some more info and we'll get you on the right track and :welcomera to our family! Another place at the dinner table!!!!! LOL

 

[jks1]

Welcome Burt, as Gina says one of the most important items of info we need here is your water parameters. Specific gravity, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, PH, and Alk if you hae tests for all of these.

From your list of fish the only one I would think could be aggressive is the Damsel. Have you seen him harass his tankmates?

I think when you test your water you will find higher than optimal Nitrate levels. With no skimmer and with the amount of food you are adding, you are bound to have nitrates. Depending on the amount this could have contributed to the loss of your fish. Just take the measurements when you get time, let us know and we'll get it figured out for you..

 

[tommyp]

hey gina- Good points but I am going to argue a few

I agree about the sump but alot of nano tanks run hob's not for mechanical filtration but to be used as a refugium. I have an AC mini on my 5.5 that is filled with macro algae. It works pretty well for a small fuge on the cheap. My suggestion is to ditch the filter media sponges whatever and put some spagetti algae in there. Make sure you take it out once in a while to clean it because the macro will act as a mechanical filter after awhile.

As for lighting. I agree corals need good light but some corals don't need alot. The mushrooms he has will be fine under the lights that he has. The frogspawn is a deeper water coral that might not need that much light. The colt is the same.
I believe 1x55w is the least I would keep on a tank this size. But if he is not raising high light corals what he has should be okay.

If it was me I would have a 175 12-14k mh. But it seems that he is doing okay with the corals but not the fish.

Skimmer!!! needed!

Tom:smirk:

 

[NaH2O]

Welcome to RS!!!

Great advice so far everyone!

Originally posted by Gina

I don't think it is a good idea right now to have a Mandarin. They need a mature tank with a heavy supply of pods for them to eat. We also wanted to get one and am glad we didn't yet because of that reason. I love those fish! If you plan on keeping him, I would make sure you have some rubble in your tank where the pods can breed and repopulate themselves rapidly.

I agree, Gina. Mandarins require a very mature tank with tons of live rock, in order to flourish. I believe I've read a recommendation of a tank at least 1 year old, a refugium to repopulate the pods, at least 100 gallon tank, and at least 100 pounds of live rock. As Gina stated, if you do plan on keeping it, then I would make rubble piles, and seriously consider adding a refugium.

I wondered if you had noticed any signs of disease or parasites on the fish. Were they acting strangely or being harassed?

Once we know what your tank chemistry is, we'll be able to put the Mystery of the Dying Fish together. Any chance of a nasty hitchhiker in there? Do you have any invertebrates - like crabs or a star? I bet it's Mr. Withers, and when we discover it's him he'll say, "and i would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!" (gotta love Scooby-Doo)

 

[Cougra]

Welcome to the sanctuary!

When the fish died, did you notice any markings on them? White spots, damaged fins? Have you noticed much agression in the tank?

Also since your tank if very new, I would look at the ammonia and nitrite readings. How quickly did you add the fish in your tank? How many fish did you add at once in the new tank? What kind of fish did you lose?

From the fish that you listed, I would highly recommend that you try to find a new home for the Mandarin Goby. These are very difficult fish to keep in a new and small tank. Most Mandarins have a very specific diet and feed off the 'pod populations in a tank. In a new tank, the pods aren't established enough or at high enough levels to be able to keep upwith the constant picking from the Mandarin. It will deplete the pod population and slowly starve to death.

These fish should only be kept in larger well established tanks (a year or older) with some place for the pods to be able to live and reproduce freely like in a refugium or sump or dedicated rubble pile within the tank.

 

[TDEVIL]

WELCOME TO RS

well, others are on the right track, before i ask any Q, i just wanted to say that we arnt trying to hurt any feelings, yours or your LFS, most of us do not listen to our LFS because they are just trying to sell you something or they are using things in the stone age and think that is the only way to do it

so here i go

Originally posted by Burt Furgeson
I currently have 29 gallon tank with live rock

Not a bad size tank, how much LR do you have? most recomand 1-2lbs/gallon

The tank has been up for 5 months.

this is still a young tank, and you have a lot in there for it being so young, not that that is your problem, could be part of it

This is the feeding/dosing schedule from the LFS - blood worms Monday, brine shrimp & algae food Wednsday, then blood worms again on Fiday, add liquid reactor Monday, Wednsday and Friday as well. I add coral vite Saturday, and feed phytoplankton Tuesday and Thursday, this is what the lfs recommended..

well, this way of feeding could be causing some of you issues, there isnt any real nutrition in your feeding, the blood worms are used as a treat, as are the brine shrimp, i wouldnt use the phyto quit as much, while this might help the pod population this will cause some problems with your parameters, coral vite, IMO, is snake oil and not needed, and before you add ant trace elements make sure that you test for it first

..they feed the same way, maybe they need more food? .

they might feed the same way, but it isnt healthy for the fish.
yes they need more healthy food, i think that we need to change your feeding habbits, here is a thread about food and how to make it your self
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1744

i think it is also something in the water (along with feeding), to many fish in a 29g tank (prob only has 15g water) and so many fish in such a short time, your corals will start to show signs soon, they will close up, so do some water changes, and i would do w/c every week with that bio-load and the size tank

i hope that i didnt step on your toes or your LFS, we will get you on track to a healthy thriving tank, hang in there

TD

 

[Pro_builder]

Looks like you are in good hands here. I will check in later and try to help out.
Welcome to Reef Sanctuary.
You have come to the right spot.

 

[NaH2O]

Nice post, TD - karma!

 

[Angry Hen]

Wow, first of all thanks for the warm welcome, and the tons of information.

How can what you guys recommend be so different from what the LFS says and is doing in their own store?

Let me see if I can answer all of your questions. I have about 40 lbs of live rock. The mandarin is the most beautiful fish and is eating the worms and brine. It doesn't look yoo skinny. I use RO(?) water from the LFS. My LFS does all of my testing and says everything is OK. I use a hydrometer and try to keep a 1.025 Salinity. My tank temperature is between 78 - 80 degrees.

What is a sump, Im not sure what that is?

Thanks

 

[tommyp]

I'll bite on how our info can be so different.

The LFS for the most part is keeping fish/corals for a short priod of time before they are sold. So they have different priorities.

My lfs has not enough MH light on there reef tank. Because it is cheaper for them and their corals will be sold quickly. If they keep anything for along period of time it doesn't do well. Almost everything I buy from them they have had for a while and is starting to tank. They cut me a deal on it and then I put it under my halides and good calcium and it comes right back 10x better than what it looked like in the store.

My fish store also doesn't acclimate because it isn't cost/time effective to acclimate all the fish they get in. They lose some and they factor it into their costs. I acclimate almost all of my fish etc and they live. It means more to me that the fish I bought makes it. To them it is resources and time they don't have. Same thing with quartineing new arrivals etc.

With food the store wants to give the fish something that will get them eating. it doesn't have to be the most nutrient filled but anything that will get them to feed. Also LFS have huge systems with lots of water in them the can feed alot because there is more dillution of the nutrients. In your 30 you have to be more careful


But we want to supply the fish for the long haul not just the post shipping period.

Not all stores are bad they just have different reasons and motivations. Some go out of their way to make sure their fish are treated the best. Some do what works to get the fish/coral out the door.


oh ya a sump is an extra tank plumbed to the main tank to put a larger amount of water in the system. it helps turn over the water and is a good place for heaters skimmers refugiums etc.

hope that makes sense
Tom

 

[BoomerD]

How can what you guys recommend be so different from what the LFS says and is doing in their own store?

Not to speak poorly of the LFS you do business with, NOR to paint them all with the same brush, so to speak, but many LFS hire people who really don't know what's best for the animals they sell, but instead hire people who might have a minimum of knowledge and who will work for peanuts. Many also will just try to sell you what they got a good deal on & want to get rid of it, or something that some salesman told them was the current "best thing since sliced bread" for fish tanks. I've been in the hobby in one way or another for 30 yrs, and worked in one of my areas "premier" LFS many years ago. Because I kept salt water tanks, I immediately became a "saltwater specialist". Not that I was particularly qualified, but I had at least a rudimentary knowledge of keeping marine critters. The store & I didn't always agree on what to sell the customers, or on what advice to give them, on what foods were best for a particular fish, etc., but I still tried to give the best I knew, and always included recommending a couple of good books on the hobby. IMO, bloodworms are not a good thing to feed to our fish. Not too much nutrition for marine creatures,and any uneaten worms will foul your tank very quickly. Brine shrimp is nearly worthless nutritionally, but if you feed the brine shrimp Selcon or another supplement, you can boost it's value slightly.
All the above are strictly my opinions, and you will certainly get differing opinions from others in the hobby.

 

[tommyp]

Here's a pic of my setup sump in the stand on the bottom. Tank on top. Water overflows down to the sump gets skimmed and then is pumped back to the main tank

 

[TDEVIL]

Originally posted by Burt Furgeson
Wow, first of all thanks for the warm welcome, and the tons of information.

we do what we can

How can what you guys recommend be so different from what the LFS says and is doing in their own store?

tommyp answered this very well, nice post, very true

another note, just because on thing works for them that doesnt mean it will work for us, you have to remember that they can change their water any time they want, and i and others will be more than happy to explane this to you LFS also

Let me see if I can answer all of your questions. I have about 40 lbs of live rock.

good amount of LR

The mandarin is the most beautiful fish and is eating the worms and brine. It doesn't look yoo skinny.

he is eating these and you have seen him eat this, very cool, they are one of the hardest to get to eat over the counter food, great success

I use RO(?) water from the LFS. My LFS does all of my testing and says everything is OK.

thats fine to have them test, i would still like the numbers, they dont have to know that you are second guessing them
ammonia, trates, trites, phosphates, PH, calcium,, are the ones i want to know
big PH swings can cause issues also

I use a hydrometer and try to keep a 1.025 Salinity. My tank temperature is between 78 - 80 degrees.

that looks fine

What is a sump, Im not sure what that is?

a sump is just a place to get more water volume, and get the heater, and other things out of the tank
you can DIY these or buy one, the more water voulme you have the better you will be
think of it as a remote tank, conected to the main tank, of atleast 10gallons, you have an overflow that takes the water from the tank to the sump then a pump (return pump) that takes the water back to the tank

Thanks

any time

TD

 

[ScottT1980]

Just wanted to say welcome and that it is nice to have another Carolina Panther ally in the Patriot saturated Reef Sanctuary (but they are nice Patriot fans so we can't hold that against them)

Good luck with the tank!

Take er easy
Scott T.

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Secret Shopper

Well what can I say, but lines of high praises for everyone who posted to the Secret Shopper thread.

BoomerD did a great job of illiciting the necessary information to provide an accurate disgnosis and then came in with a great response about possible inappropriate LFS practices.

Gina was the first responder to the additional information provided by the newbie, yours truly , and really hit the nail on the head.

Because of their great member work, Travis and Terry have agreed there will be not one but two winners of a $50 gift certificate, congratulations BoomerD and Gina!

Nikki, jks1, Cougra, TD, tommyp, ScottT1980 - you all did a fantastic job and we wish we could reward you as well.

This collective effort is why RS is a cut above!

Here is a link to the congratulatory thread:

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=26385#post26385

:smirk:

 

[ReefLady]

I would like to add a HUGE thank you to Coraldynamics and The Logical Reef, BoomerD has won a $50 Gift Certificate to CoralDynamics, Gina $50 to The Logical Reef.