Tank Transfer Method for Ich Treatment

[Pat24601]

While I'm not strictly speaking a beginner to saltwater, having been in the hobby for 4 years, I did just recently come upon my first ever instance of having to treat for Marine Ich.

While there are many aspects to this "learning experience" that I think could be worth sharing, one thing I thought I'd talk about is my experiences with using the "Tank Transfer" method to cure Marine Ich.

I spent many, many hours trying to determine how I was going to treat Marine Ich once I knew I had it. Obviously, I started with the Reef Sanctuary thread by Lee, which is excellent.

I debated all 3 of the methods Lee recommends: (1) copper, (2) hypo-salinity, and (3) tank transfer.

After substantial research, I decided to try the tank transfer method, which seems to be the least commonly used method in the hobby as near as I can tell, but with HIGHLY positive views from those who believe in it.

My personal experiences with the tank transfer method were excellent!!! It was really amazing to watch a fish that was absolutely covered in white spots become mostly clean within 3 days and completely clean within 6 (although I did all 12 just to be sure). I had been extremely apprehensive about dealing with Marine Ich and now that I've been through this process, I consider it a pain, but one I can definitely deal with if I have to.

I really feel very good about this method and how well it worked.

Unfortunately, Lee doesn't detail how to perform tank transfer in his thread, so the best reference I found on how to do it is on an external site located here.

I'm not going to repeat the methodology in this thread as it's already well stated there, but the basic idea is that every 3 days for a total of 12 days (4 transfers in total) you take the infected fish out of an old tank and put it in a fresh tank. This lets you target the most predictable stage of the Marine Ich life cycle and basically "outrun" the disease so that the Ich never gets a chance to re-attach itself to the fish as you get the fish out of the tank before the cyst changes to the free swimming stage.

As I mentioned, the purpose of this post isn't to go over the methodology, but rather share my views of it as someone who has treated Ich for the first time and used this method for the first time.

I have several things I really like about the methodology. The advantages listed in the article I cited I agree with and they include:

* Easy to perform
* As close to 100% effective as treatment methods get
* Low stress on the fish (no chemicals necessary or shifting in salinity)
* Low ammonia build-up risk since doing frequent complete water changes
* Can dose ammonia detox products while performing TTM
* Takes only 12 days​

Specifically, I was nervous as a first time Marine Ich treater that I would mess up copper or hypo. I now understand both methods better and I'm not sure I would have, but from a "can I screw this up" perspective, taking a fish out of one tank and in putting it another tank felt like much lower risk than hoping I get and keep copper levels correct or hoping I get the hypo parameters correct for a person that has never done either before.

I also liked that it didn't involve any chemicals and the risk from ammonia was low because of the frequent tank changes.

The fact that the whole thing is reliably over in 12 days is a big plus as well. It's fast as these things go.

There were some downsides. The main one being that it involves setting up and tank down tanks every 3 days for 12 days. That's considered "quite a bit of work".

Big picture wise, that's why I did it. In this article, what I want to do is mention some of the customizations I did for the process that I personally think were helpful. You can decide for yourself if you agree.

1) My first "customization" is that I strongly believe in using 4 sets of equipment, especially for a first timer, rather than just 2.

The articles about this, and most methods, for treating Marine Ich seem to assume you want to do it on the cheap, which is fine. But, I mean, we are running saltwater tanks and doing something hard. Many of us are used to a little expense.

Because the easiest way to screw up tank transfer is to not get your first set of equipment truly dried before you re-use it from what I read, I strongly believe in going ahead and using 4 sets of equipment instead of 2. This takes that variable out the equation entirely by never using the same equipment twice. Also, many people recommend not even using a tank, but just using some rubbermaid totes because they are easier to clean and dry. That's hardly a lot of money.

Because I roll the way I roll, I guess, I actually used 4 Fluval Spec V freshwater tanks. That's about as expensive as you can do this, really and I wouldn't recommend anyone follow in my footsteps there, but I would recommend you have 4 tanks, or rubbermaid totes, or whatever instead of 2 if you are doing this for the first time and can afford such.

If not, you can definitely do this with only 2 sets of equipment, just be really sure you dry it well between uses. That’s the important part.

I added in a 3" and a 2" 90 degree PVC elbow for hiding places and voila, I was all set. This is a pic of my set up. Easy as can be.


2) My second "customization", similar to the first, is I used 4 nets rather than just 2. Nets are notoriously difficult to get dry and they are cheap. So, why risk it?

3) My third "customization" is I went ahead and treated with seachem prime on day 2 and day 3 just to be sure. I mean, you shouldn't need it, but why not?


That's really it. Everything else I did pretty standard. My fish has been Ich free since treatment (about 5 weeks now), so I have every indication it worked well.

I really believe that tank transfer method is an under-rated way to treat Marine Ich in the hobby from what I read. While it can be perceived as more "work" because you are setting up and tanking down tanks every 3 days for 12 days, it strikes me as a lot less error prone than other methods...especially if you use 4 sets of equipment. I really like that it targets the most predictable part of the Marine Ich life cycle and that it's fast. This makes me feel more confident it really worked effectively and I didn't screw it up.

I'm obviously not saying copper and hypo don't work. There are reasons they are proven and popular, but as a newbie making the decision of how to treat, I thought I'd share my experiences with tank transfer as another viable option for that I find fast, effective, and in my case less intimidating as a newbie to fish disease treatment than those other methods.

 

[Pancho75]

Pat, did you place the fishes back in the DT after the 12 days? if yes, is not the DT still infected with ich? how did you avoided re-infection by placing the fishes back in the DT?


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[Pancho75]

While I'm not strictly speaking a beginner to saltwater, having been in the hobby for 4 years, I did just recently come upon my first ever instance of having to treat for Marine Ich.

While there are many aspects to this "learning experience" that I think could be worth sharing, one thing I thought I'd talk about is my experiences with using the "Tank Transfer" method to cure Marine Ich.

I spent many, many hours trying to determine how I was going to treat Marine Ich once I knew I had it. Obviously, I started with the Reef Sanctuary thread by Lee, which is excellent.

I debated all 3 of the methods Lee recommends: (1) copper, (2) hypo-salinity, and (3) tank transfer.

After substantial research, I decided to try the tank transfer method, which seems to be the least commonly used method in the hobby as near as I can tell, but with HIGHLY positive views from those who believe in it.

My personal experiences with the tank transfer method were excellent!!! It was really amazing to watch a fish that was absolutely covered in white spots become mostly clean within 3 days and completely clean within 6 (although I did all 12 just to be sure). I had been extremely apprehensive about dealing with Marine Ich and now that I've been through this process, I consider it a pain, but one I can definitely deal with if I have to.

I really feel very good about this method and how well it worked.

Unfortunately, Lee doesn't detail how to perform tank transfer in his thread, so the best reference I found on how to do it is on an external site located here.

I'm not going to repeat the methodology in this thread as it's already well stated there, but the basic idea is that every 3 days for a total of 12 days (4 transfers in total) you take the infected fish out of an old tank and put it in a fresh tank. This lets you target the most predictable stage of the Marine Ich life cycle and basically "outrun" the disease so that the Ich never gets a chance to re-attach itself to the fish as you get the fish out of the tank before the cyst changes to the free swimming stage.

As I mentioned, the purpose of this post isn't to go over the methodology, but rather share my views of it as someone who has treated Ich for the first time and used this method for the first time.

I have several things I really like about the methodology. The advantages listed in the article I cited I agree with and they include:

* Easy to perform
* As close to 100% effective as treatment methods get
* Low stress on the fish (no chemicals necessary or shifting in salinity)
* Low ammonia build-up risk since doing frequent complete water changes
* Can dose ammonia detox products while performing TTM
* Takes only 12 days​

Specifically, I was nervous as a first time Marine Ich treater that I would mess up copper or hypo. I now understand both methods better and I'm not sure I would have, but from a "can I screw this up" perspective, taking a fish out of one tank and in putting it another tank felt like much lower risk than hoping I get and keep copper levels correct or hoping I get the hypo parameters correct for a person that has never done either before.

I also liked that it didn't involve any chemicals and the risk from ammonia was low because of the frequent tank changes.

The fact that the whole thing is reliably over in 12 days is a big plus as well. It's fast as these things go.

There were some downsides. The main one being that it involves setting up and tank down tanks every 3 days for 12 days. That's considered "quite a bit of work".

Big picture wise, that's why I did it. In this article, what I want to do is mention some of the customizations I did for the process that I personally think were helpful. You can decide for yourself if you agree.

1) My first "customization" is that I strongly believe in using 4 sets of equipment, especially for a first timer, rather than just 2.

The articles about this, and most methods, for treating Marine Ich seem to assume you want to do it on the cheap, which is fine. But, I mean, we are running saltwater tanks and doing something hard. Many of us are used to a little expense.

Because the easiest way to screw up tank transfer is to not get your first set of equipment truly dried before you re-use it from what I read, I strongly believe in going ahead and using 4 sets of equipment instead of 2. This takes that variable out the equation entirely by never using the same equipment twice. Also, many people recommend not even using a tank, but just using some rubbermaid totes because they are easier to clean and dry. That's hardly a lot of money.

Because I roll the way I roll, I guess, I actually used 4 Fluval Spec V freshwater tanks. That's about as expensive as you can do this, really and I wouldn't recommend anyone follow in my footsteps there, but I would recommend you have 4 tanks, or rubbermaid totes, or whatever instead of 2 if you are doing this for the first time and can afford such.

I added in a 3" and a 2" 90 degree PVC elbow for hiding places and voila, I was all set. This is a pic of my set up. Easy as can be.
View attachment 48128

2) My second "customization", similar to the first, is I used 4 nets rather than just 2. Nets are notoriously difficult to get dry and they are cheap. So, why risk it?

3) My third "customization" is I went ahead and treated with seachem prime on day 2 and day 3 just to be sure. I mean, you shouldn't need it, but why not?


That's really it. Everything else I did pretty standard. My fish has been Ich free since treatment (about 5 weeks now), so I have every indication it worked well.

I really believe that tank transfer method is an under-rated way to treat Marine Ich in the hobby from what I read. While it can be perceived as more "work" because you are setting up and tanking down tanks every 3 days for 12 days, it strikes me as a lot less error prone than other methods...especially if you use 4 sets of equipment. I really like that it targets the most predictable part of the Marine Ich life cycle and that it's fast. This makes me feel more confident it really worked effectively and I didn't screw it up.

I'm obviously not saying copper and hypo don't work. There are reasons they are proven and popular, but as a newbie making the decision of how to treat, I thought I'd share my experiences with tank transfer as another viable option for that I find fast, effective, and in my case less intimidating as a newbie to fish disease treatment than those other methods.

I must say it is impressive what you did!


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[Pat24601]

Pat, did you place the fishes back in the DT after the 12 days? if yes, is not the DT still infected with ich? how did you avoided re-infection by placing the fishes back in the DT?


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Great question.

You are correct that you need to leave the fish in a separate tank while your display tank goes fallow to get rid of the Ich in the DT. This is true regardless of the Ich treatment process.

In my case, I have a fully cycled “observation tank” set up that I just used as the last tank in my transfer process and the fish has been in it ever since.

I realize most people don’t have a separate observation tank set up like I do. So, it’s entirely possible just to leave the fish in the last tank you used until your DT is good to go. Just keep up on water changes to avoid ammonia issues.

I’m leaving the DT fallow (free of fish) for 76 days, which appears to be the maximum amount of time seen in studies Marine Ich has stayed in its cyst cycle. 76 days is probably pretty high overkill, but I think most recommendations are to let it be fallow for 6-8 weeks and I figure once you are doing it that long, why risk it? Just go the extra few weeks. Others may make different choices.

 

[DaveK]

The big problem with the tank transfer method is that you need at least 2 setups for transferring the fish, plus you still need to deal with the display tank. Ideally you'd also want an additional cycled tank that you can put the fish in until they can be returned to the main display tank.

Most beginners just don't have that much equipment. Also, when your done treating the disease in 2 weeks, you still need to leave the display empty for 8 - 10 weeks.

You are also fortunate that you only need 5 gal tanks to use this method. A tank that small is easy to lug around for cleaning. If I were to try something like this for my 125 gal reef, I'd need something like 40 gal breeder tanks, and they usually need two people to lift or move.

I'd say that if someone was a long term FW hobbyist and had the equipment, then the tank transfer method might be ok, but if your like most people, it's almost impossible to consider. Tank transfer also requires that you follow the procedures exactly. Beginners often make mistakes, and a single mistake can undo a lot of work.

I just can't see using the tank transfer method for ich treatment as a good idea for most beginners.

 

[Pat24601]

The big problem with the tank transfer method is that you need at least 2 setups for transferring the fish, plus you still need to deal with the display tank. Ideally you'd also want an additional cycled tank that you can put the fish in until they can be returned to the main display tank.

Most beginners just don't have that much equipment. Also, when your done treating the disease in 2 weeks, you still need to leave the display empty for 8 - 10 weeks.

You are also fortunate that you only need 5 gal tanks to use this method. A tank that small is easy to lug around for cleaning. If I were to try something like this for my 125 gal reef, I'd need something like 40 gal breeder tanks, and they usually need two people to lift or move.

I'd say that if someone was a long term FW hobbyist and had the equipment, then the tank transfer method might be ok, but if your like most people, it's almost impossible to consider. Tank transfer also requires that you follow the procedures exactly. Beginners often make mistakes, and a single mistake can undo a lot of work.

I just can't see using the tank transfer method for ich treatment as a good idea for most beginners.

I see this a bit differently, I think in part because I look at this through a beginners lens. Let me explain why a bit.

With regard to needing someplace to put the fish while the DT is fallow, that’s an issue regardless of which method is used. I don’t see any difference in that for any of the methods.

For a beginner, I think both copper and hypo have a high level of error prone and intimidation to them as well and it’s not remotely hard to find posts from people who screwed them up.

For example, before I found the CHEMetrics test kit, I had no confidence in my ability to dose copper correctly. The best test kit I found otherwise was salifert and my ability to read that test kit is dangerously bad even now. I don’t think most hobbyist are even aware that a better kit than salifert exists.

Hypo might be better, but that’s maintaining a non-cycled tank for several weeks at very specific parameters I’m not used to maintaining including lots of water changes. There are numerous posts out there of beginners screwing that up.

So, treating Marine Ich isn’t really easy to me as a beginner no matter what you do. All of them have the potential for error. What I liked about tank transfer is I’m really not doing anything special or different than I’ve done before. I’m just filling up and emptying a tank every 3 days, which is something I’ve done plenty of.

So, personally, and mileage certainly may vary, I find the idea of just taking a fish out and switching it from tank to tank 4 times MUCH less intimidating than trying to maintain parameters I’m not used to maintaining for weeks. I also very much like that it’s attacking the most predictable part of the Marine Ich life cycle rather than the free swimming stage only, which the others do.

The equipment requirements you mention are definitely real, but it’s not like a few 5 or 10 gallon tanks or Rubbermaid totes are that expensive by saltwater standards and many of us have some lying around from freshwater. Regardless, the requirements are easy to calculate beforehand and if they are problematic by all means don’t do this!

 

[DaveK]

I would consider hyposalinity to be the first treatment for most beginners. Everyone have a refractometer or hydrometer to easily measure salinity. In addition you only need to move tho fish twice, compared to all the times you need to move them with tank transfer. Many beginners just don't have the skill needed to capture and move a fish with out damage or giving it a lot of stress.

I also think maintaining parameters is much easier and less error prone than the setting up and tearing down of tanks. Keep in mind that if your a bit off on moving the fish, you will fail to break the cycle and need to do more tank transfers to be effective.

Keeping the fish in a quarantine tank that is not cycled can be a problem. It can be a lot to keep up with, especially if you have a lot of large fish. However, unless you have a cycled tanks that doesn't contain ich standing by, you have the problem with tank transfers also, since you can't put the fish back in the main display.

It's true, that a few 5 or 10 gal tank are not that expensive, but this really changes if you need something much larger. So cost in that case can be quite a bit. In addition you also need the space to set up the tanks. Not everyone has that.

Only people that have spent a lot of years in the hobby have a lot of extra containers or tanks. Many people, especially beginners only have the one tank. How many times do we see someone get ich and conplain that getting a quarantine tank "isn't possible" even thought it's critical for disease tretment?

 

[Pat24601]

Always valuable to get your viewpoint, Dave!!! I do see your perspective, of course.

To take this conversation a different direction, another one of my observations from dealing with Marine Ich is that treating for it really is an "all-in" endeavor.

Regardless of which method you use, I think they are all very easy to mess up and so one needs to really understand what they are doing and why, which is no small task. I spent MANY hours understanding Marine Ich before I even started treatment. While it's all standard information that has been around forever, absorbing it all is definitely time consuming.

Just as a simple example, I ran into post after post of people who used hypo or copper but didn't treat for long enough and had absolutely no awareness that they were screwing it up. They then wondered why the Ich was back after their "successful" treatment.

That's actually a VERY easy mistake to make if you don't bother to truly understand why you are doing what you are doing rather than just "add some copper" or "lower the salinity". I think it goes something like "Hey spots are cleared up!!! Guess I'll put everything back the way it was as everything is cured now!!! Hey, why did the Ich return?"

This makes me generally not optimistic that the "casual hobbyist" that isn't bothering to become pretty engrossed in gathering the information that is out there (and has been for decades) has much of a chance of success in treating Marine Ich. They are just too likely to screw something up. It's not that it's hard, but you have to pay attention to the details and not do the wrong thing and I think a lot of people try to treat without even realizing they don't know what they don't know.

Another example is I think cupramine's instructions on the bottle are flat out misleading. Sure, you can treat with copper for 14 days and call it done (probably), but you darn well better get that fish out of the tank right away before you lower the copper levels or more cysts will become Theronts and you are back to square 1 (assuming I understand correctly).

In fact, my LFS thinks the chance of a casual hobbyist successfully treating for Marine Ich is so low they actually don't recommend removing fish and treating for Marine Ich at all. It's not that they are idiots. They know full well that the only three proven methods for treatment are (1) hypo, (2) copper, and (3) tank transfer. And hypo doesn't even always work depending on the strain.

But, as I drilled into why they were giving the advice they were about just trying to keep the fish healthy and hoping they survive the outbreak instead of actually treating, I found out that it basically boils down to their decades of experience is that the casual hobbyist is going to mess up the treatment. The believe the hobbyist is more likely than not going to kill the fish and even if they don't kill the fish they told me they believe 95% of hobbyist will go through an "Ich Treatment" and not actually get rid of the Ich. So, they advise accordingly.

Now, whether they should or shouldn't give that advise is (perhaps) debatable, but it is an interesting perspective.

I think my current view is to advise people that those 3 methods are the only proven 3 methods for dealing with the parasite. But, I also think my LFS has a point. A lot of hobbyist probably do more harm than good by trying to treat and getting it wrong.

Kind of an interesting "dilemma" from an advise perspective.

 

[DaveK]

I'd say the largest issue with SW ich treatment is that beginners want a simple, easy to use, reef safe way to treat the disease. Unfortunately there is no such method, and they end up using the many products out there that don't do a thing, and end up killing a lot of their fish and other livestock. This is one area where there is still a lot of very bad information out there, and many new to the hobby fall into the trap.

In these cases they would be better off doing nothing, because at least they are not messing with the water quality.