Tank Longevity (just ranting)

blue_eyes53813

Well-Known Member
Re: Tank Longivity (just ranting)

Good to know Paul.... Nitrates do seem to be a problem for many aquarist. I have had problems before and it was with the switching my system to zeovit. But is now all fixed and havent had any readings since. I just wanted to point those few details out for new people that may read this in the future .

Good filtration is a must for SW tanks. Including water changes...
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
Re: Tank Longivity (just ranting)

What blame do you associate with people who don't stay in the hobby? We were all noobs at one point, and in the big picture we still are noobs. It ain't for everyone, but you don't know until you try.

I'm assuming that you are directing this question to my prior post.

All of the other items I mention are contributing factors as to why people leave the hobby.

While it's true you don't know for sure till you try, I feel that people that are going to get involved with any sort of pet, have an obligation to themselves and to the pet to find out what they are getting involved with. This includes the amount of care the animal is going to need, and the cost involved with the pet.

Many people do not, and this is why we have many unwanted cat and dogs in shelters, and many others that are abused. It's no different for Fish and reefs.

Yes, everyone was new at one time, but the smart ones educated themselves first and then got the reef system. The others either gave up, or got educated the hard way, by making lots of mistakes, and usually spending a bundle to correct them.

Yes, I have made many mistakes over they years myself, and in a few cases wiped out the entire tank.
 

cheeks69

Wannabe Guru
RS STAFF
Some very well written posts so I won't add much...:lol:

Take a second and think of all the crazy things we have tried in an effort to keep a single tank going, massive water changes, carbon dosing (vodka, sugar), zeovit

Nothing wrong with using bacteria to export nitrate/phosphate and feeding your corals at the same time, from what I remember Chuck your adding vinegar with your topoff water aren't you ? Does the same thing.

I should have said that if a fish lives a month, it should live it's natural lifespan or longer in a tank. If cyanide was used in it's collection, it will not usually live that long but if it lives a while longer than if it dies, yes, it is our fault.

I would have to disagree. I kept a CBB that was eating very well, right out of my hands in fact but he just kept losing weight until he died six months later. I did everything I could to no avail so no it wasn't my fault. The damage done to the internal organs by cyanide can take months to manifest itself and there nothing you can do to correct it.

I do agree with Chuck's post and I have often wondered why we don't see more reef systems that are true "ecosystems" designed to mimic one section of the ocean geographically, or by depth, lighting, water flow, etc.

In my case I love variety and would never be satisfied with corals from one section of the reef although it would certainaly make it easier on me if I did this...:lol:
 

Paul B

Well-Known Member
I would have to disagree. I kept a CBB that was eating very well, right out of my hands in fact but he just kept losing weight until he died six months later. I did everything I could to no avail so no it wasn't my fault. The damage done to the internal organs by cyanide can take months to manifest itself and there nothing you can do to correct it.

I would imagine it is possable to have a fish die six months later from cyanide poison but it is rare. They usually don't make it a month or two.
But it is still our fault. If the fish wasen't collected, it would probably still be alive. Of course they we wouldn't have this hobby so that is not the answer.
One thing I would like to mention though, a fish that is eating is not always a healthy fish. My fish would eat cardboard if I soaked it in clam juice but it would not keep them alive for long. Copperbands will eat a variety of foods including mysis, brine shrimp, clams and most other meaty foods but it is not their natural diet. A copperband in the South Pacific where they come from will almost never get a chance to eat a clam, mysis or brine shrimp. They were designed to eat worms. Now I am not saying yours died because of a lack of the proper food as I don't know what you were feeding it and as I said, it could have been collected with cyanide. But we as aquarists many times feel that as long as the fish is eating commonly available aquarium foods, we are doing good. That is not the case with many fish, copperbands, moorish Idols, clingfish, mandarins, orange spotted filefish, clown groupers and anything in the seahorse family all need special foods although many of them will eat other things these other things may not keep them alive for ten years or more. Many aquarium fish have lifespans of twenty years or more (eccept seahorses)
If you follow a copperband butterfly in the sea, you will see them picking worms out of small holes, it makes up the majority of their diet as I have watched them do this. I have found that worms are the best thing to feed fish and copperbands in particular. I feed my fish live worms almost every day and many of them are spawning every month or so.
I have found that while mysis is considered a great food, it is mostly undijestable shell which is fine for most, but not all fish.
IMO many foods available to the aquarium trade are available because they are easily collected and easy to process and package. The best foods for most fish is "whole" baby salt water fish. This is makes up the majority of a fishes diet in the sea.
The sea is litterly teaming with baby fish. Especially around a coral reef. If you do much diving, not as a tourist but when you can really spend some time to observe, you will be able to see all these tiny fry. The larger fish swimming above occasionally dip down for a snack. The baby fish they are eating are of course whole fish. Many fish are almost a quarter oil which is stored in their livers. The rest of the fish is composed of calcium in the bones and every other vitamin and mineral that fish need. The barest, least nutritious part of the fish is the part we eat and what we usually feed our fish. It is the mussel. Almost all of the nutrition is in the guts. Thats why whole fish is the best thing we could feed our fish. Unfortunately this food is unavailable to almost everyone. Yes we could take a sardine and put it in a blender but if you have ever done this it is quite messy and most of the juices which holds the vitamins and oils leaks out when we try to feed our fish with it.
I would like to see tiny frozen whole fish for sale or at least bite sized chopped whole fish in some sort of jel binder that keeps the juices in.
I sometimes find freeze dried tiny fish in Asian markets but they take hours to re constitute and have the consistancy of saw dust. I would really love to find these fish frozen but so far I have not found them.
If some enterprising fish food manufacturer would do this I think it would be a boon to this hobby. Those tiny fish are also cheap, cheaper than mysis and healthier for our fish to eat.
In the summer I collect these tiny fish to fed to my tank, they are very plentiful and I feed them live. I have never froze them but have been thinking about it for years.
Most of my fish are smaller gobies and live mainly of newborn brine.
Newborn brine shrimp are also very healthy because of the yoke sack which contains a lot of oil. Unfortunately the shrimp are too small for many fish and full grown brine shrimp are not a very good staple food for anything.
These eggs were laid last week in my tank and hatched a few days ago. The thousand or so fry contributed much needed nutrients to my fish.

Gobieggs026.jpg
 

cheeks69

Wannabe Guru
RS STAFF
If you follow a copperband butterfly in the sea, you will see them picking worms out of small holes, it makes up the majority of their diet as I have watched them do this. I have found that worms are the best thing to feed fish and copperbands in particular.

I never dove but I do know that CBB's eat fauna that reside in the LR so this includes Pods/worms/mysid shrimp even anemones etc. so if you have a healthy CBB that is eating in captivity and have plenty of LR then he should do very well and his diet can be supplemented by frozen zooplankton, Mysis as well as other meaty foods.

The best foods for most fish is "whole" baby salt water fish. This is makes up the majority of a fishes diet in the sea.

Well that depends on the fish, is it a suspension feeder like an Anthias ? Is it a herbivore or carnivore ? Does it stick to the rockwork and feed off the fauna or is it an open water swimmer ? Although I don't doubt that fish fry is a nutritious food I can't say it makes up the majority of a fishes diet in the sea.

Many aquarium fish have lifespans of twenty years or more

Yes this is true but how many will live their full lifespan in the ocean ? I would say very few ! I don't believe that most fish available for the hobby live such bad lives in captivity in the hands of a responsible/conscientious aquarist. They don't have to worry about being eaten by bigger fish and don't have to wonder where their next meal is...:lol:
 

Paul B

Well-Known Member
As I said, copperbands will eat most anything but they were built to eat worms and these should be in their diet. Of course you can keep them without worms but certain fish evolved to benefit from certain foods.
That is the reason I dive so I can watch them and see for myself what they are eating. Just as I have followed moorish Idols and although they also will eat anything, in the sea I have only seen them eat sponges. I kept my last one for five years with sponge as a main part of it's diet. 5 years stinks and he died in an accident.
The fish that eat fish fry are as you said carnivores. Herbifores eat mostly algae but the majority of reef fish that I have dove with eat fish fry, including tangs. Clowns especially, as well as all damsels and most bottom dwelling fish except bleenies and gobies.
I based my statements of years of laying on the sand watching these things eat. I am always amazed by the amount of fish fry on a reef.
I don't remember diving with square anthias but in my reef I feed them tiny fish. Thats about all I could get them to eat.
 

l3fty999

Member
We should be giving credit to those who realize that they just can't do it for whatever reason. At least they aren't STILL killing anything in a tank. And I whole-heartedly agree with Paul. If we have to do water changes as often as recommended, then where are the NATURAL processes that would ordinarily take care of waste products? I mean, come on, salt, as far as I know, shouldn't wear out. How many times do we see someone posting about(and it was mentioned here in this thread) water changes to "dilute" ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates? Many of those same people want to have a "natural" setting as possible. I must say, water changes may be unavoidable, but if we must do them so often, then I agree, we have failed to duplicate what the organisms we keep would consider a natural environment. And Paul, even though you've read this before, you just keep on posting, you seem to base what you say on personal observation and research and I enjoy the fact that it stimulates people's minds.

Take care
Aaron
 

burning2nd

Well-Known Member
Well.. all i can say is im on the path of paul..

I havent had any death in over a year now I havent tested in at least that long if not longer..

My new tank was setup test free... and ive backed off on water changes more then half...


Keep it up`!
 

jesse92

Member
GREAT THREAD PAUL!....You clearly have a great love and respect for marine life and thats totally awesome, i reckon all marine aquarists should read this thread and take heed to what you said.
 

Paul B

Well-Known Member
you seem to base what you say on personal observation and research and I enjoy the fact that it stimulates people's minds.

Keep getting stimulated. This stuff keeps me up at night, (along with thoughts of Supermodels)

I was lucky enough many years ago to get myself into SCUBA classes and also lucky enough to live near the sea so I could buy a boat and dive when ever I wanted to. All of our animals come from the sea (none of them really came from a LFS) so the place to study them is in the sea, not as a tourist in a resort but as an observer who has time to just lay on the bottom for an hour near a particular bunch of fish and kind of make friends with them.
You need to look close and pay attention to how they spend their day and what they eat as well as how they find their food, who they hang out with, what they are afraid of and who they date.
 

redsea reefer

Well-Known Member
This was a very interesting thread PaulB, I 100% agree with every one of your statements. The arguments most people were making didn't take the time to carefully read your posts e.g-water changes to export nitrates, you never said it should not be done other than removing toxins and replacing minerals. You have first hand knowledge of fish behavior in their natural habitat. I don't want to get to far into this and just wanted to say, I agree with everything you said in this thread.
 

Paul B

Well-Known Member
[QUOTEI agree with everything you said in this thread.
QUOTE]

How about what I said about Supermodels? :eek:verhere:
 

redsea reefer

Well-Known Member
[QUOTEI agree with everything you said in this thread.
QUOTE]

How about what I said about Supermodels? :eek:verhere:

That too....:)

If you said you saw a fish eating a big mac while diving, I probably would believe you...LOL
 
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johnmaloney

Well-Known Member
I think the total possible lifespan of a fish shouldn't be measured against average lifespan in an aquarium environment, and then show that the aquarium environment fails against the potential lifespan. Lifespan for a fish in the ocean is very short. Only a very small fraction of fish live to adulthood, most are killed long before they reach that point. Life in the ocean is nasty, fish are constantly eating other fish and getting eaten themselves. If the average damsel makes it 1 year in our tanks, they are doing far better than their oceanic counterparts.

Also many fish don't live in the shallows because it is very rough in 18 inches of water. Tides aside, shore break alone is good cause to move into deeper water. In 7 feet of water, where the shore break is not so severe, you can find almost all the fish we keep in the hobby if you dive over structure. Although, to kind of take up one of your points, I think most of our fish are underfed. Fish in the ocean eat all the time they aren't worried about being eaten. Sit there long enough and you will see them nibble quite a few times, once they get used to your presence.

I also think the major purpose of WCs in a mature system is not to export nutrients, but to replenish depleted trace elements in a cheaper fashion.

Just my 2 cents, you do make lots of good points though.

(chemical fish collectors have moved on to quinaldine in most cases, cyanide isn't as effective, that is kind of old school chemical fishing. probably some cyanide fisherman out there, but quinaldine is the protein skimmer of today's chemical fisherman, and cyanide is the under gravel filter). Set netting and barrier netting techniques have greatly improved non-chemical catch rates, and are the most popular method deployed.

- i really enjoyed reading this thread. It sounds like I disagree with what you said, but it would have been boring for me to repeat you, and I am worried about plagiarism. :)
 
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Paul B

Well-Known Member
but it would have been boring for me to repeat you, and I am worried about plagiarism.

John, I have a staff of lawyers just waiting to pounce on anyone who writes even one word of what I post on these fish forums. :laughroll
 
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