stocking advice: flame angel?

[Ntruder]

I have a very peaceful community in my 75g FOWLR setup. I currently have:
-5 blue/green chromis
-2 ocellaris clowns
-2 banggai cardinals
-1 yellow tang
-1 hippo tang

All are very young, especially the tangs. Its very new, the full tank has been running for a little over a month. There isn't a ton of rock in there, but I'll probably end up with somewhere around 150lbs. (I have about 50 now, another 50-60 curing) There are no corals currently and won't be in the near future, so don't worry about that.

Granted, these fish haven't been together very long, but they all get along wonderfully. They are all very peaceful. There is absolutely zero chasing, nipping, etc. I want to keep it that way. I had 5 yellow tail damsels that were used for cycling, but I got the blue hippo tang, they attacked him, chased him, nipped at him, and were just mean. And simple economics shows that when the $5 fish attack the $75 fish, the $5 fish go back to the LFS.

As most of these fish are very small, and I do frequent water changes to keep nitrate levels as low as possible, I'm fairly confident that there is room for another "main attraction" fish. Below are the fish I had my eye on. I'm mainly looking for input on these options. I'm strongly leaning towards the flame angel, as you'll see below

-Flame Angelfish: Magnificent color, perfect colored fish for my tank. But I see them listed as "semi-aggressive." This is my top candidate so far. I am looking for input on how he will get along with the others.

-Porcupine puffer: not the slightest bit attractive, but as cute as a pale full of kittens. I was dead set on getting one of these guys until I saw a video of one biting a small goldfish in half. There will be no eating of live-food in my tank. This sort of savage behavior will not be tolerated in my home, and if my goldfish ever saw this happen, even in the safety of their own tank, they'd probably go belly up. Also, I know that puffers get huge

-Volitan Lion: a true spectacle of a fish, but again, I'm worried about it eating my other fish. Namely the chromis, and maybe the clowns. I've seen some very nice looking smaller lions, but I know they also get huge. And there will be no eating of tank mates tolerated.

-Henoichus Butterfly: Nice and peaceful. Not the most attractive fish in the world, and they get kinda big

Any input on anything is greatly appreciated. I'm very new to this whole thing, and I'm always looking for information.

 

[ragvette]

My vote is for the flame angel.

I had a flame angel in my 90gal tank it was one of my favorite in the tank and it was also pretty hardy. My flame angel was also very peaceful so it should be fine in your tank.

 

[lcstorc]

Well I hate to tell you, but you are already overstocked. The general rule is one inch of full grown fish per 5 gllons of water. That gives you roughly 15 inches of fish. You have that with just the clowns, chromis and cardinals. The tangs really should be in a tank of at least 100gallons. They get very big very fast. I would strongly recommend taking them back to the lfs so they can go to someone with a bigger tank where they will have the appropriate swimming room.
As far as the specific fish you mention, I know nothing about the butterfly.
The flame angel is a dwarf angel so if you are going to get one of the fish listed this would be your best bet. They will nip at corals and can become agressive particlarly if overcrowded.
The puffer and the lion are both bad for the same reasons. They get very large. They eat primarily live food or at least will if given a chance so your other fish are definitely not safe. They produce a large amount of waste and will be an even bigger strain on your bioload than other similar sized fish.
I would hold off getting any more fish and like I said get rid of the tangs. Finish curing the rock and let your tank stabalize. It is still very new.
Then if you have your levels under control a couple of months from now you could consider another smaller fish. Even perhaps the angel.

HTH

 

[DaveK]

I have to agree with Icstorc on the thank already being over stocked.

As for the specific fish you are interested in, with the exception of the flame angel, all the others are generally not suitable for a reef system. The puffer and lion get too large and will eat the other smaller fish. A Henoichus Butterfly will get too large for your tank, and will nibble on corals.

As for the flame angel, it is a dwarf angel, and you have a chance of it working out, but all angles are a toss up. It could be fine, but it could also become a tank terror. In all cases, have a plan for the fish if it doesn't work out.

 

[nasek718]

I have a very peaceful community in my 75g FOWLR setup. I currently have:

-1 yellow tang

I'm sorry thats funny...... Go with the flame angel.

 

[GeeWizzItsMe]

Umm... I may not be the most experienced person, but I disagree. This is not a reef tank, so the 5 in. per gallon is not really applicable.

However, your tank is very new, so see how things go for another month or two before thinking about another fish, but if I had the choice, I'd go for the flame angel!

 

[caitrina]

I really don't think the rule of one inch of fish per 5 gallons of water is specific to whether it is reef included or fish only. (Correct me if I am wrong) I do believe this general rule is whether it is reef or not and it is one inch of full grown fish per 5 gallons of water not 5 inches per gallon.
I have to agree with Lynn.

 

[Witfull]

Umm... I may not be the most experienced person, but I disagree. This is not a reef tank, so the 5 in. per gallon is not really applicable.

the rule is for SW in general, not just reef. its a close limit for minimum space/volume Vs. filtering capacity.

so it is applicable.

 

[caitrina]

the rule is for SW in general, not just reef. its a close limit for minimum space/volume Vs. filtering capacity.

so it is applicable.

Thanks Wit, I thought that was so.

 

[GeeWizzItsMe]

Oh, oops...

 

[cheeks69]

Its very new, the full tank has been running for a little over a month.

Adding 11 fish to a new setup can be very problematic, were any of these fish quarantined before adding them to the display ? What do you have for filtration ? How often do you do water changes ? What are your parameters ? I agree with Lynn your tank is already overstocked and not established yet, I would never recommend a Dwarf angel to a new setup. These fish don't always accept prepared foods when first introduced to captivity, they are grazers and depend on micro-algae that grows naturally on well established LR.

 

[Ntruder]

Rules of thumb are overly vague and generalizedl. For example, just about every fish I have is about as thick as a penny, so obviously a 1" chromis is not going to create the same bio-load as a 1" puffer fish. I'd bet that ONE of my goldfish produces 10x the waste that both of my Tangs do.

Secondly, the liverock probably only displaces around 5-10 gallons, and its all built up on the back wall, so there is tons of swimming room. 70/5 = 14". Clowns and the chromis are currently about an inch or less. The hippo is about 1.5", and the yellow tang is about 2". Cardinals are around 1.5" Thats 13.5". I'm currently under the "rule of thumb."

Third, I freakin love this hobby. Love love love. I built my own stand and I already have designs laid out for a new stand. IF, when these guys grow up (and fish don't grow fast) there is not enough room, there is about a .0005% chance that I will still have this small 75 gallon tank. I'll probably be up to a 125 by then. (More likely by the time I move next fall)

And finally, all the fish hang out near each other anyway. None display any territorial behavior whatsoever. The tangs do a lot of swimming. The chromis, clowns, and the cardinals are usually within 12" of each other. The Tangs are the only ones that actually use the space I've given them. All the others just play around in a group.

So I do appreciate the input, but I wouldn't worry too much about overcrowding. I do about 12 gallons worth of water changes each week, so the water stays nice and clean. And the fish will certainly outlive this tank. The 75 gallon size was chosen because of size limitations of my apartment. But I'm buying a house next fall, and I'll probably design an entire room around this aquarium.

 

[caitrina]

Alrighty then ......no more input from this end....:away:

 

[cheeks69]

I do about 12 gallons worth of water changes each week, so the water stays nice and clean. And the fish will certainly outlive this tank.

Well you speak with such certainty, I'm not as confident ! Adding all these fish within such a short period of time isn't a good idea as your tank is in bacterial flux and depending on what your using for a skimmer and how often your feeding the 12 gal water change may not be enough to prevent an ammonia spike. I would watch your parameters very carefully and do more frequent water changes if necessary.

 

[DrHank]

Since you seem to know all the answers, why bother to ask our opinion? Our concern is for your livestock and not your ego. Sorry if this seems overly harsh but sometimes the truth hurts. Lynn was absolutely correct and that is also the consensus of quite a few experienced individuals who don't risk livestock in cycling a tank.

 

[flricordia]

I have a very peaceful community in my 75g FOWLR setup. I currently have:
-5 blue/green chromis
-2 ocellaris clowns
-2 banggai cardinals
-1 yellow tang
-1 hippo tang

All are very young, especially the tangs. Its very new, the full tank has been running for a little over a month. There isn't a ton of rock in there, but I'll probably end up with somewhere around 150lbs. (I have about 50 now, another 50-60 curing) There are no corals currently and won't be in the near future, so don't worry about that.

Granted, these fish haven't been together very long, but they all get along wonderfully. They are all very peaceful. There is absolutely zero chasing, nipping, etc. I want to keep it that way. I had 5 yellow tail damsels that were used for cycling, but I got the blue hippo tang, they attacked him, chased him, nipped at him, and were just mean. And simple economics shows that when the $5 fish attack the $75 fish, the $5 fish go back to the LFS.

As most of these fish are very small, and I do frequent water changes to keep nitrate levels as low as possible, I'm fairly confident that there is room for another "main attraction" fish. Below are the fish I had my eye on. I'm mainly looking for input on these options. I'm strongly leaning towards the flame angel, as you'll see below

-Flame Angelfish: Magnificent color, perfect colored fish for my tank. But I see them listed as "semi-aggressive." This is my top candidate so far. I am looking for input on how he will get along with the others.

-Porcupine puffer: not the slightest bit attractive, but as cute as a pale full of kittens. I was dead set on getting one of these guys until I saw a video of one biting a small goldfish in half. There will be no eating of live-food in my tank. This sort of savage behavior will not be tolerated in my home, and if my goldfish ever saw this happen, even in the safety of their own tank, they'd probably go belly up. Also, I know that puffers get huge

-Volitan Lion: a true spectacle of a fish, but again, I'm worried about it eating my other fish. Namely the chromis, and maybe the clowns. I've seen some very nice looking smaller lions, but I know they also get huge. And there will be no eating of tank mates tolerated.

-Henoichus Butterfly: Nice and peaceful. Not the most attractive fish in the world, and they get kinda big

Any input on anything is greatly appreciated. I'm very new to this whole thing, and I'm always looking for information.

I have a FLame angel that seems OK with the small 6-line and goby. Dosn't bother them or any corals. Seems to be interested in nothing but swimming at the front begging for food. If you saw that before I corrected sorry.

 

[prow]

-Flame Angelfish: Magnificent color, perfect colored fish for my tank. But I see them listed as "semi-aggressive." This is my top candidate so far. I am looking for input on how he will get along with the others.

good choice for your tank. but the hippo should not be in the mix in this size tank. trade this angel for the regal tang, JMO

-Porcupine puffer:

not a good idea

-Volitan Lion: a true spectacle of a fish, but again, I'm worried about it eating my other fish. Namely the chromis, and maybe the clowns. I've seen some very nice looking smaller lions, but I know they also get huge. And there will be no eating of tank mates tolerated.

your right to worry, avoid it.

-Henoichus Butterfly: Nice and peaceful. Not the most attractive fish in the world, and they get kinda big

very poor survival rates

Rules of thumb are overly vague and generalizedl. For example, just about every fish I have is about as thick as a penny, so obviously a 1" chromis is not going to create the same bio-load as a 1" puffer fish. I'd bet that ONE of my goldfish produces 10x the waste that both of my Tangs do.

i will take that bet.goldfish are messy eaters ture, but your tangs are 10x more active and eat 10x more, even at their tiny sizes. why would you think they produce 10x less waste

Secondly, the liverock probably only displaces around 5-10 gallons, and its all built up on the back wall, so there is tons of swimming room. 70/5 = 14". Clowns and the chromis are currently about an inch or less. The hippo is about 1.5", and the yellow tang is about 2". Cardinals are around 1.5" Thats 13.5". I'm currently under the "rule of thumb."

they will grow.

Third, I freakin love this hobby. Love love love. I built my own stand and I already have designs laid out for a new stand.

me too just love it DIY too.

IF, when these guys grow up

not if, they will grow up.

(and fish don't grow fast)

some do. like your regal tang, 80% of its linear growth will be in the first 15% of its life span. which is about 35-45years. that means it will be about 10" with in about 3 years. 5-6" with in the first year.

there is about a .0005% chance that I will still have this small 75 gallon tank. I'll probably be up to a 125 by then. (More likely by the time I move next fall)

thats good, your current tank will get overcrowded with a couple of these particular fish. might get better feedback if you mentioned you are planning a upgrade soon

And finally, all the fish hang out near each other anyway. None display any territorial behavior whatsoever. The tangs do a lot of swimming. The chromis, clowns, and the cardinals are usually within 12" of each other. The Tangs are the only ones that actually use the space I've given them. All the others just play around in a group.

they will start to claim their territory and that territory will grow as they do. they are still small and were just in the ocean a couple months ago. after they get settled you may see all your fish in one coner and just one in the middle.

So I do appreciate the input, but I wouldn't worry too much about overcrowding. I do about 12 gallons worth of water changes each week, so the water stays nice and clean. And the fish will certainly outlive this tank. The 75 gallon size was chosen because of size limitations of my apartment. But I'm buying a house next fall, and I'll probably design an entire room around this aquarium.

your going to need to do frequent water changes for awhile. your tank bio population is not ready for all those fish at the same time. the first couple fish added really have a big effect on any size tank, 10 fish yeah lots of water changes and possibly prolonged algea/bac bloomings fights, even never ending. its all about the prep work:invisible

 

[Ntruder]

Alrighty then ......no more input from this end....:away:

Wow, you clearly misunderstood the intent of my response, as I was merely explaining my stocking scheme.

Since you seem to know all the answers, why bother to ask our opinion? Our concern is for your livestock and not your ego. Sorry if this seems overly harsh but sometimes the truth hurts. Lynn was absolutely correct and that is also the consensus of quite a few experienced individuals who don't risk livestock in cycling a tank.

Ego? :bouncebox Ok, look, I'm sorry; I was just explaining my reasoning in my stocking scheme. I wasn't trying to be rude or dismissive. I do value your input, which is why I asked for it. Don't take this the wrong way, but lots of the advice I see on this board differs a decent amount from things I've read in books and what I've learned from other enthusiasts. I make decisions based on a collection of information, not just one single source.

I do understand your concerns. I know that if/when these Tangs hit 10", I will have some serious space issues in my current tank. BUT, I explained why that's not going to be a concern. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I've done lots of homework on this; I didn't just go to the pet store one day and buy a tank and a bunch of fish. I was mainly following stocking protocols from some of the books I have based on fish size and aggression.

Well you speak with such certainty, I'm not as confident ! Adding all these fish within such a short period of time isn't a good idea as your tank is in bacterial flux and depending on what your using for a skimmer and how often your feeding the 12 gal water change may not be enough to prevent an ammonia spike. I would watch your parameters very carefully and do more frequent water changes if necessary.

thanks, I certainly will, and do. I do ammonia/nitrite/ate/pH/salinity tests every other day. The tank had a month with 5 yellow tails and the LR, and a little over a month the way it is now. I haven't had a trace of ammonia or nitrite in about 7.5 weeks, so I feel pretty good about the biofilter's maturity. Also, I didn't add everything all at once. Damsels, chromis, clowns, tang, tang, (-)damsels, cardinals.

 

[Ntruder]

i will take that bet.goldfish are messy eaters ture, but your tangs are 10x more active and eat 10x more, even at their tiny sizes. why would you think they produce 10x less waste

My goldfish is the size of a golf ball (just his body) and he's a dirty pig. And both my tangs are babies. My two tangs combined have total volume of about 25% of my goldfish. The Regal is literally 1.5" nose to tail and as thick as a dime. They eat like 4 hunks of shrimp then they're done. My goldfish eats a teaspoon of flakes and sends most of it out the other end.

some do. like your regal tang, 80% of its linear growth will be in the first 15% of its life span. which is about 35-45years. that means it will be about 10" with in about 3 years. 5-6" with in the first year.

Very good to know. I was curious about this. Thanks

good choice for your tank. but the hippo should not be in the mix in this size tank. trade this angel for the regal tang, JMO

About the hippo, do you say this because of the tank mates? Or the fish itself? reason I ask is because I usually see 70-80 gallons being a minimum tank size for hippo tangs. (at least according to the sources I've seen so far)

they will start to claim their territory and that territory will grow as they do. they are still small and were just in the ocean a couple months ago. after they get settled you may see all your fish in one coner and just one in the middle.

Also good to know. Actually they do all hang out on one side... But all together. *shrug*

your going to need to do frequent water changes for awhile. your tank bio population is not ready for all those fish at the same time. the first couple fish added really have a big effect on any size tank, 10 fish yeah lots of water changes and possibly prolonged algea/bac bloomings fights, even never ending. its all about the prep work:invisible

Well, I did a 3 week damsel cycle with the LR/LS, then over the next 2 weeks added the chromis, test test test, then the clowns, test test test, then the yellow tang, etc... I'll keep at it.

Anyway, thanks for your input. Very helpful info, all of it.

 

[cheeks69]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I've done lots of homework on this; I didn't just go to the pet store one day and buy a tank and a bunch of fish. I was mainly following stocking protocols from some of the books I have based on fish size and aggression.

Really ? I would like to know which books you've read that indicated you can add 11 fish within a couple of weeks and that your biofilter would mature in such a short period of time.

If you don't have these books already I would recommend them:

1. The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists by Robert Fenner
2.The New Marine Aquarium: Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guide by Michael Paletta
3.Natural Reef Aquariums: Simplified Approaches to Creating Living Saltwater Microcosms by John Tullock

Here's another great read by Eric Borneman:

Bacteria grow really fast, and so they are able to grow to levels that are capable of taking up nitrogen within a typical cycling time of a few weeks to a month (or so) to levels where ammonium and nitrite are not measurable by hobby test kits. Most people assume, wrongfully, that the tank is now "cycled." However, the fact that ammonium and nitrite are no longer easily measured does not in any way imply that the tank is truly cycled, mature, stable, or in any way able to easily support life in the form of new additions. I will discuss this more in the passages below.

If one realizes the doubling time of many bacteria, one would know that within a month, there should exist a tank packed full of bacteria with no room for water. That means something is killing or eating bacteria. It should also be realized that if the tank has decomposition happening at a rate high enough to spike ammonia off the scale of a hobby test kit, there is a lot of food for bacteria that consume this material, and far more than will be present when other things stop dying off and decomposing. So, bacterial growth may have caught up with the level of nitrogen being produced, but things are still dying. An aquarist simply "tests zero" for ammonia because there are enough bacteria present to keep up with the nitrogen being released by the dying organisms. It does not mean things are finished decomposing.

Now, if things are decomposing, they are releasing more than ammonia. Guess what dead sponges release? All of their sequestered toxic metabolites. Guess what else? All their natural antibiotic compounds and these will prevent some beneficial microbes from doing very well. The same occurs with the algae, many other invertebrates, the cyanobacteria, the dinoflagellates, and others. Suffice to say that this death and decomposition is going to take a while to complete.

Through the initial periods, there will be a tank packed with some kinds of bacteria, probably not much of others. Eventually, the massive death slows and stops. Now, what happens to all that biomass of bacteria without a food source? They die. So, another cycle of decomposition begins, and this back and forth process will continue for a while until equilibrium is reached. I say equilibrium, but that is a relative term since reproduction and mortality is a constant process in our tanks, as are "mishaps" and the relative size of the pendulum swing will depend on the reproduction and mortality rates, and biomass of the organisms involved. Still, the new swing of dying bacteria also has antibiotics, toxins, and other substances released when they die. But, the die-off is relatively slow, and is relative to the loss of nutrients, and there is already a huge population present. The result to the aquarist is that they never test positive for significant levels of ammonia. "The water tests fine."

Mything the Point, Part Three: Conclusion - Reefkeeping.com

BTW which skimmer you using ?