plumbing layout
- Thread starter aqujoe247
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aqujoe247
Member
That was my initial thought but couldn't quite figure out how to run the plumbing to ensure there was eough flow through the sump, but not to much through the refugium.
Should I put the refugium on a pedastal next to the sump and put a drain at the bottom of the return to go into the sump?
And split the drain from the overflow box?
But wouldn't the skimmer which will hang on the sump, pull in everything from the refugium?
Should I put the refugium on a pedastal next to the sump and put a drain at the bottom of the return to go into the sump?
And split the drain from the overflow box?
But wouldn't the skimmer which will hang on the sump, pull in everything from the refugium?
addict
Well-Known Member
Looking good! 
A couple things though... you're going to have a heckuva time trying to match the input/output of the refugium, because both will have to be exactly matched to keep from either overflowing the fuge, or sucking it dry.
What you could do, is put the fuge pump inside the sump, have it pump 'to' the fuge, then have the fuge drain back into the sump... that way you don't have to worry about matched levels... you can just make a small overflow box for the fuge that drains back into the sump. Then just have the overflow drain into the sump, without splitting it off to the refugium.
The second thing... if you're going to run full-length spray bars on the return, make sure to drain siphon breaks about 1/4" below the water surface inside the tank, and keep them cleaned out... or you're at the risk of a flood disaster. Without siphon breaks, if your power goes out, the water in your tank will drain down to the first spraybar outlet, which could be several inches of water. :bugout:
Otherwise, that's a nice diagram. It looks like you've settled on the Turboflotor as a skimmer... those things are bad-a$$...
I think you'll be very impressed with it's performance.
Hope that helps.
A couple things though... you're going to have a heckuva time trying to match the input/output of the refugium, because both will have to be exactly matched to keep from either overflowing the fuge, or sucking it dry.
What you could do, is put the fuge pump inside the sump, have it pump 'to' the fuge, then have the fuge drain back into the sump... that way you don't have to worry about matched levels... you can just make a small overflow box for the fuge that drains back into the sump. Then just have the overflow drain into the sump, without splitting it off to the refugium.
The second thing... if you're going to run full-length spray bars on the return, make sure to drain siphon breaks about 1/4" below the water surface inside the tank, and keep them cleaned out... or you're at the risk of a flood disaster. Without siphon breaks, if your power goes out, the water in your tank will drain down to the first spraybar outlet, which could be several inches of water. :bugout:
Otherwise, that's a nice diagram. It looks like you've settled on the Turboflotor as a skimmer... those things are bad-a$$...
I think you'll be very impressed with it's performance.
Hope that helps.
aqujoe247
Member
ADDICT
If i'm understanding you correctly, wouldnt the refugium have to be placed above the sump to drain into it? And my sump open area is only 7 1/2 x 7 3/4, so i'm not sure if I can fit two pumps into it (fuge pump, and I prefer internal return pumps because they're quieter). I hope I wasn't too confusing on these questions.
If i'm understanding you correctly, wouldnt the refugium have to be placed above the sump to drain into it? And my sump open area is only 7 1/2 x 7 3/4, so i'm not sure if I can fit two pumps into it (fuge pump, and I prefer internal return pumps because they're quieter). I hope I wasn't too confusing on these questions.
addict
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily... as long as the water level in the sump isn't higher than the level in the refugium (which it shouldn't be), the water will drain back into the sump... at least with an overflow box.
Now, if you decided to put a bulkhead in the side of the refugium and then have some pvc pipe run back into the sump, then the refugium would only have to be slightly higher than the sump, just enough so that the bulkhead would be higher than the sump rim.
Attached is a quick and dirty diagram of what I'm talking about, to give you a visualization that is probably easier to understand... of course, it all depends on room.
Now, if you decided to put a bulkhead in the side of the refugium and then have some pvc pipe run back into the sump, then the refugium would only have to be slightly higher than the sump, just enough so that the bulkhead would be higher than the sump rim.
Attached is a quick and dirty diagram of what I'm talking about, to give you a visualization that is probably easier to understand... of course, it all depends on room.
Attachments
tcarola154
New Member
that is exactly the set up i have running to my fuge... an overflow box hanging in the fuge, draining to the sump. I used a small pump that i stuck on the side of my sump with the little rubber suction cups, which pumps into the fuge... whole thing works like a charm
aqujoe247
Member
Thanks for the insight, I will be following that diagram for my setup.
Since the smallest overflow box that I know of is rated for 600gph, that means I need I 600gph pump to go from the sump to the fuge, wouldn't that be too much flow through the fuge.
Also, Addict you were saying as long as I have a drilled hole at water level on the spraybars I should be fine right?
Since the smallest overflow box that I know of is rated for 600gph, that means I need I 600gph pump to go from the sump to the fuge, wouldn't that be too much flow through the fuge.
Also, Addict you were saying as long as I have a drilled hole at water level on the spraybars I should be fine right?
addict
Well-Known Member
aqujoe247 said:
Overflow box ratings are for maximum flow... you don't have to run the maximum.
You can run any amount you wish and it'll still work... overflow boxes work on an equalization principle... the water is trying to reach a neutral potential (i.e. all areas have an equal amount of water), which is what creates the flow through the overflow box.
Like Witfull said, you can either drill a series of 1/8" holes, or a single 1/4" hole in each spraybar line just below the water surface... personally, I prefer a larger hole, because it's harder to clog up, but either size will work.
So do we have you thoroughly confused yet?
aqujoe247
Member
Thanks once again. I'm starting on the stand for the fuge to sit on today. Now that I have gotten a word of wisdom from you guys & gals, I will start to measure for plumbing after that.
Instead of taking 1" PVC and drilling holes into as i've seen done, i want to take 1" pvc and put a T every inch to lessen the restriction as much possible. I would put one on each side and point them toward the front glass, do you think this will create a good circulation?
Instead of taking 1" PVC and drilling holes into as i've seen done, i want to take 1" pvc and put a T every inch to lessen the restriction as much possible. I would put one on each side and point them toward the front glass, do you think this will create a good circulation?
addict
Well-Known Member
Okay... first things first.
Are you going to drill the refugium for a bulkhead and just let it drain by gravity? That's the only reason you'd need to build a shelf, unless the refugium is shorter than your sump and you're just trying to bring it level (for the overflow box).
Secondly, I don't think that putting a tee every couple inches will work like you think... the main problem being that you'll get uneven flow out of each tee... some may have a lot of flow, and some hardly any. You actually want a bit of restriction on the outlets so that it pressurises the manifold (spraybar) a bit so that an even amount of flow comes out of each hole.
Otherwise, the tee on the bottom will have the highest flow, and each tee further up the chain will have less and less flow, simply because the bottom tee doesn't create enough back pressure to push the water out of the other holes.
What I've seen people do, is create a manifold out of tee's, then get some caps and drill holes in them of varying sizes (the smallest at the furthest end, then gradually larger down the line toward the other) to equalize the flow... you'll have to play around with it a bit before installing it to get it just right, but it's doable.
It might just be easier to drill a series of 3/8" holes.
Are you going to drill the refugium for a bulkhead and just let it drain by gravity? That's the only reason you'd need to build a shelf, unless the refugium is shorter than your sump and you're just trying to bring it level (for the overflow box).
Secondly, I don't think that putting a tee every couple inches will work like you think... the main problem being that you'll get uneven flow out of each tee... some may have a lot of flow, and some hardly any. You actually want a bit of restriction on the outlets so that it pressurises the manifold (spraybar) a bit so that an even amount of flow comes out of each hole.
Otherwise, the tee on the bottom will have the highest flow, and each tee further up the chain will have less and less flow, simply because the bottom tee doesn't create enough back pressure to push the water out of the other holes.
What I've seen people do, is create a manifold out of tee's, then get some caps and drill holes in them of varying sizes (the smallest at the furthest end, then gradually larger down the line toward the other) to equalize the flow... you'll have to play around with it a bit before installing it to get it just right, but it's doable.
It might just be easier to drill a series of 3/8" holes.
aqujoe247
Member
Ok, I see what you're saying and it will make things alot easier. Do you think that's the largest holes that can be drilled and still have enough pressure?
I'm want to calculate the flow of the tank, when determining the GPH I need to include the water that will be in the fuge & sump also, right? When I fil the fuge up it will be 10 gallons, and the sump should be 3-5 gallons. I'm totaling out to about 70g, with a MAG12 (1200gph div. 70g) is a 17x turnover.
If I have to put valves on the pumps, will they start to trap air or create micro-bubbles as I was reading in another thread?
How does this look?
I'm want to calculate the flow of the tank, when determining the GPH I need to include the water that will be in the fuge & sump also, right? When I fil the fuge up it will be 10 gallons, and the sump should be 3-5 gallons. I'm totaling out to about 70g, with a MAG12 (1200gph div. 70g) is a 17x turnover.
If I have to put valves on the pumps, will they start to trap air or create micro-bubbles as I was reading in another thread?
How does this look?
addict
Well-Known Member
Howdy again,
Okay, after looking at your diagram, I have a few things to point out.
First off, you'll want your sump to be bigger than your refugium (probably a 20 gallon tank), because your sump will have to catch all the water that drains down from the tank when the power shuts off. Your tank will run about an inch or so higher when water is flowing through it, which must have somewhere to go when water isn't flowing. You'll also need to be able to catch the extra water flowing through the refugium, since it will also run higher when flowing.
Also, a Mag12 is overkill on a 55 gallon tank... you really don't want to run that much water through such a small sump or you're going to have a heckuva time controlling microbubbles, and the water will also be moving too fast for detritus to settle in the sump (which is where you want it to settle so it's easier to clean out).
You should shoot for 3-4x tank volume through the sump. Any other flow should be kept inside the tank to figure your total tank turnover. For instance, in my case I have a Mag18 as a return on my tank, though it's pushing against quite a lot of head pressure so it's probably only flowing about 900 to 1,000gph. The rest of my in-tank flow is made up with six MJ-1200 powerheads. I'm a bit at the high side for flow through the sump, but only at about 7.5x... you'll be at almost 22x flow. :bugout:
Also, the bulkhead in your refugium (I think that's the refugium) is way too low... you'll only have water in the fuge up to the first set of baffles (in the center)... nowhere near the whole ten gallons you're planning on.
If you give me a bit, I'll throw a diagram together to show you how I'd plumb the tank... but of course you're free to modify it however you wish... I just think you're missing some of the principles of water flow when drawing your diagrams, so I thought I'd help you out.
Okay, after looking at your diagram, I have a few things to point out.
First off, you'll want your sump to be bigger than your refugium (probably a 20 gallon tank), because your sump will have to catch all the water that drains down from the tank when the power shuts off. Your tank will run about an inch or so higher when water is flowing through it, which must have somewhere to go when water isn't flowing. You'll also need to be able to catch the extra water flowing through the refugium, since it will also run higher when flowing.
Also, a Mag12 is overkill on a 55 gallon tank... you really don't want to run that much water through such a small sump or you're going to have a heckuva time controlling microbubbles, and the water will also be moving too fast for detritus to settle in the sump (which is where you want it to settle so it's easier to clean out).
You should shoot for 3-4x tank volume through the sump. Any other flow should be kept inside the tank to figure your total tank turnover. For instance, in my case I have a Mag18 as a return on my tank, though it's pushing against quite a lot of head pressure so it's probably only flowing about 900 to 1,000gph. The rest of my in-tank flow is made up with six MJ-1200 powerheads. I'm a bit at the high side for flow through the sump, but only at about 7.5x... you'll be at almost 22x flow. :bugout:
Also, the bulkhead in your refugium (I think that's the refugium) is way too low... you'll only have water in the fuge up to the first set of baffles (in the center)... nowhere near the whole ten gallons you're planning on.
If you give me a bit, I'll throw a diagram together to show you how I'd plumb the tank... but of course you're free to modify it however you wish... I just think you're missing some of the principles of water flow when drawing your diagrams, so I thought I'd help you out.
addict
Well-Known Member
Okay, attached is a quick n' dirty diagram of how I'd plumb things...
I think the main problem is that you're trying to integrate the refugium too much, when in fact it's a separate system that's just plumbed 'into' the sump, rather than being an integral part of the whole design.
Just think of the refugium as a secondary 'tank' on a smaller scale. It has water pumped to it, and it flows back into the sump, just as your main display tank is functioning.
On the return lines, where it tees off I'd go with 45 degree elbows rather than 90's, but my diagramming utility doesn't do 45's too well (remember this is quick n' dirty. ).
You'll also notice the blue parts in each part of the system, this is the running height, or how the water levels will look when the system is functioning normally. You'll notice all the extra space in the sump... this is to catch all the water that's flowing throughout the system when the system shuts off.
Of course you can add baffles to the sump as well, but I didn't want to get too complicated... just wanted to demonstrate how things were plumbed together and how the water is going to flow.
Hope that helps.
I think the main problem is that you're trying to integrate the refugium too much, when in fact it's a separate system that's just plumbed 'into' the sump, rather than being an integral part of the whole design.
Just think of the refugium as a secondary 'tank' on a smaller scale. It has water pumped to it, and it flows back into the sump, just as your main display tank is functioning.
On the return lines, where it tees off I'd go with 45 degree elbows rather than 90's, but my diagramming utility doesn't do 45's too well (remember this is quick n' dirty.
).You'll also notice the blue parts in each part of the system, this is the running height, or how the water levels will look when the system is functioning normally. You'll notice all the extra space in the sump... this is to catch all the water that's flowing throughout the system when the system shuts off.
Of course you can add baffles to the sump as well, but I didn't want to get too complicated... just wanted to demonstrate how things were plumbed together and how the water is going to flow.
Hope that helps.
Attachments
aqujoe247
Member
You should shoot for 3-4x tank volume through the sump. Any other flow should be kept inside the tank to figure your total tank turnover
I was trying to keep from using power heads, but what do you think of 2 SEIO 620gph?
Also, the bulkhead in your refugium (I think that's the refugium) is way too low... you'll only have water in the fuge up to the first set of baffles (in the center)... nowhere near the whole ten gallons you're planning on.
Diagram has the water level to the rim, only because of the overflow box, right? I thought fuges need high water level to keep the water as calm as possible so not to disturb the pods at the bottom? Also I read that the higher the water level, the higher the caulerpa can float to the light.
I think the main problem is that you're trying to integrate the refugium too much, when in fact it's a separate system that's just plumbed 'into' the sump, rather than being an integral part of the whole design.
I think you're right as i've just read on a thread that you should only have the tank's volume 1x per hour through the fuge.
On the return lines, where it tees off I'd go with 45 degree elbows rather than 90's,
That's supposed to be a SCWD, to alternate the currents to the spraybars.
You'll notice all the extra space in the sump... this is to catch all the water that's flowing throughout the system when the system shuts off.
Instead of using the wet/dry I was planning on using, I will be using an extra 10g I have laying around for the sump now.
Dave, thanks for taking the time to help me format this plan, you input is greatly appreciated!
I was trying to keep from using power heads, but what do you think of 2 SEIO 620gph?
Also, the bulkhead in your refugium (I think that's the refugium) is way too low... you'll only have water in the fuge up to the first set of baffles (in the center)... nowhere near the whole ten gallons you're planning on.
Diagram has the water level to the rim, only because of the overflow box, right? I thought fuges need high water level to keep the water as calm as possible so not to disturb the pods at the bottom? Also I read that the higher the water level, the higher the caulerpa can float to the light.
I think the main problem is that you're trying to integrate the refugium too much, when in fact it's a separate system that's just plumbed 'into' the sump, rather than being an integral part of the whole design.
I think you're right as i've just read on a thread that you should only have the tank's volume 1x per hour through the fuge.
On the return lines, where it tees off I'd go with 45 degree elbows rather than 90's,
That's supposed to be a SCWD, to alternate the currents to the spraybars.
You'll notice all the extra space in the sump... this is to catch all the water that's flowing throughout the system when the system shuts off.
Instead of using the wet/dry I was planning on using, I will be using an extra 10g I have laying around for the sump now.
Dave, thanks for taking the time to help me format this plan, you input is greatly appreciated!