Plumbing and design questions?

[sharks]

OK I’m getting closer to moving the tank into the basement. It will go in a wall with it’s own room for filtration and a frag tank. I made a little picture but I have a few questions and wanted to throw it out for feedback and suggestions. In this move I will finally get to hook up the chiller and Ca reactor.

First question?
How cool is the water coming from the chiller? If I feed the REF off that line do you think there will be any problems? I don’t think it’s a problem but while I have your attention ;-) This will be a closed loop line with sea swirl returns.
I am going back and fourth with the sea swirl vs. Tunze system.
The basement is so cold I doubt the chiller will even kick on.

Next I would like to add either a 75 or 120 into this picture. (Probably the 120)
How should I plumb that in?
My little Lifereef sump can’t handle the water from both so what to do…
I was thinking of tying in another sump. I could drill both and run a 6’ pipe down low between the 2. Should I just ditch the Lifereef sump and use a larger tank?

Here is a pic of the room.

 

[sharks]

And here is a pic of the tank design without the frag tank.
Not sure how I’m going to tie it in so I had to stop playing in paint
I will be building a shelf over the Ca reactor and chiller to hold it.

 

[acropora]

Nice drawing.. I would look to get a new sump. Something bigger that you can drill yourself. Some hardware stores carry large plastic sumps and the "tractor store" and other stores sell XL Rubbermaid tubs. The larger sump will reduce the amount of bubbles re entering your tank. It will also make it easier to plumb external pumps for your protein skimmer,chiller,etc.
I would not have the chiller feed the fuge.The return pump can feed the fuge.The cooler water from the chiller will dissipate better in the larger water volume of your tank or a larger sump.

 

[acropora]

If you have the room, an extra large sump can also be sectioned off for a Frag tank.

 

[Maxx]

Gotta agree w/ Anthony,
Get a bigger sump.......think natural disaster...what if you have a power loss? Back siphon would drain all over your floor. Besides, more stability in larger volume of water.
I was trying to figure out what you meant by the chiller feeding the REF....thought you just misspelled reef.....course that wouldnt account for you capitalizing it, but hey....I never claimed to be a genius.
I would go w/ the return pump feeding the fuge or maybe even a dedicated powerhead from the tank to the fuge.
I would also go w/ the Tunze systems as opposed to the sea swirls. I've just heard many instances of the sea swirls breaking after minimal abuse. The worst I've heard about the Streams, is that they are ugly.....
HTH,
Nick

 

[Tosh_Auer]

Dont feel dumb Maxx i couldn't figure it out at first either. Oh and i agree with eveything said above. I think maxx's idea of a dedicated PH from the DT to the fuge is a good idea but then if the return pump fails for some reason you have a powerhead pumping your entire display tank into your refugium.

Tosh

 

[Maxx]

a dedicated PH from the DT to the fuge is a good idea but then if the return pump fails for some reason you have a powerhead pumping your entire display tank into your refugium.

Depends on where you place your powerhead Tosh. It also depends on how you set up the return from the refugium. Usually refugiums are set up one of two ways. Either in sump, or set up above the tank which allows gravity to return the water from the refugium (filled w/ lotsa plankton and pods which wont have to make a trip thru a pump) back to the tank. If the refugium is set up above the tank, the only water that will come out of it, is the water that gets put into it. Make sense? So if Sharks would have a return pump failure for some reason, a set up like I just mentioned might be a good thing, cause it would continue to move water about the tank, (even though its just a little amount overall.
HTH,
Nick

 

[sharks]

Thanks for the input and suggestions
I’ve been working long hours to get the demo and construction done ASAP.
The room has grown and I will be adding a register and return from the building HVAC unit. I am also considering a vent like those used on a clothes dryer vented outside to ease the moisture issue in the basement.
So here is the new and larger plan for the room.

 

[sharks]

And a redo on the plumbing. It seems that I need more and more pumps for all the different “loops”. One main pump to run the tank through the RR plumbing. One for the Closed loop to an oceansmotions 4 way unit for the main tank. (2000GPH) One medium internal pump for the skimmer. A small PH to run the Ca reactor. Another pump to run the frag tank. And lastly one to run the REF. (Gravity fed down into the main tank)
Clearly I am needing a larger sump so I’m thinking 5-6’x18x18. I will need to get most of the components into the room to make final decisions but it’s closer to what I need.
OK so again I ask…

Do you see any issues with what I have here?
Are any of you running the oceanmorion wave makers?
I see a lot of positive feedback on them. What would be the difference between this device and a MBV? ( Motorized Ball Valve) Other then the MBV costs more.
All input is appreciated and taken into design considerations so thanks again
S

 

[Dennis7]

You could tee off the closed loop for your fuge and tee off the main return for your CA reactor, both with valves to control the flow. This is what I do on my system and it works great and only use three pumps. The fuge and CA reactor don't need alot of flow.

 

[Dennis7]

I also run an electronic float valve on the fuge in case something gets clogged in the return to the tank. This will shut down the pump till the water level is right again and my fuge won't overflow.

 

[Maxx]

Sharks,
Dennis has some very good points, anytime you can disperse your pumps flow to handle other things, it will cut down on your power usage. Only thing to consider is what happens in the event of a pump failure...it will affect more things to your tank. Not trying to talk you out of anything at all...just pointing out really the only negative consequence as far as I can see about having alot of things on a few pumps.
Actually right about now, I'm trying to figure out if I can get my calcium reactor T-d off my main return.....hmmmmm
I have an OM 4 way unit, but its not currently hooked up, (since I'm S-L-O-W-L-Y building up the stand and canopy for new tank.
One thing I noticed about your closed loop w/ the OM unit:
To reach the far side of the tank, you make big sideways U to come from behind the OM unit, up over it and down the the tank itself....(Light green, top right over to top left). I count 3 unnnecessary 90 elbows which will restrict your flow something fierce.
Hows about something like this...
I would try to reduce the number of 90 elbows as much as possible. $5's will reduce back pressure ALOT, and going from a 45 at the far left end straight into LocLine will allow even more flexibility and remove a 90 from your plumbing.
HTH,
Nick

 

[Dennis7]

Another good point brought up by Maxx about the 90's elbows. I use wyes instead of tees and flex pvc whenever possible. Also using two 45's together instead of a 90 will help giving you a smoother flow, but that does take up more room.

 

[sharks]

Thanks guys.
I here you on the idea to loose the PH’s
I will probably do just that.

More then likely I will make a set up similar to Lunchbucket for the OM unit.
I have enough space in the fish room to mount it near the center of the tank.
Here is his design….

I like this setup and with the main tank returning down under the LR I think I will have enough flow. I haven’t ordered the OM unit yet. I need to talk to them and see what is the max GPH they can handle. This will be a SPS dominated system so I want to crank up the currents.
Thanks again
S

 

[Maxx]

Yeah, lunchBucket has some great suff going in his system.
Have you seen the plans Mojoreef has helped me figure out for my 58? I havent honestly done the plumbing part yet, but I'm expecting to get on that this week.
Nick

 

[Maxx]

The idea is for the low jets to blow detritus up to where the upper jets can move towards the overflow. Once the overflow has it, its down to the sump where the oversized skimmer (basically an ETSS 600) can remove it. If the skimmer doesnt get it then a short settling tank is in the sump where (hopefully) most of the detritus will settle and be easily siphoned out.
Thats the plan anyway. We'll see if that Murphey guy lets me have my say in the matter.
Nick

 

[sharks]

Great design I just found your other thread.
Now if I could just make up my mind on the flow in my system :hammerhea

I think I will use the 8 way and set it up like this.
The 2 red arrows will be the Main pump return.
Arrow 1&2 would point down the back of the tank to blow the detrius out from under the back of the rock.
Arrows 3&4 would come on next and they would be plumbed down near the bottom of the tank.
Then 5&6 , 7&8.
I'm going back and fourth with Paul and I will run it past Mike too.

 

[Maxx]

That looks pretty good to me, but Mikes experiance covers a lot of ground.
Nick

 

[sharks]

Thanks Nick
I will PM Mike about it.
I spoke to Paul and he suggested to save the cash and order the 4-way unit. I can pump as much as I want and just split the return at the tank. So 1&2 will be on one, then 3&5, then 7&8, and then 4&6.
This will save me over $100 and I’ll still get the same desired affect. I will redraw the design tomorrow on the other PC. I don’t have Visio on this laptop and it’s late.
S

 

[mojoreef]

Hey Sharks got your pm. You know I posted on here but I cant find it now,....strange must not of gone through. Let me see if I can help out a bit.

On your overall plumbing plan. 2nd version.
SUMP:
I would skrink up that area so that it is a little skinnier, just wide enough to fit your skimmer pump in it and one drain line. So first chamber has the skimmer pump sucking raw water (which is what you want) also it has one drain line entering it.
then go with 3 baffles only, under first then over and under again. To many baffles creats speed and speed will drive the bbble through the sump. Make the baffles about 2 inches apart. Take the second drain line and feed it directly to the refugium, this will give the ref. the raw water it needs and will eliminate one pump (also the contact time will be good) have the water from the ref. drain into the sump but have it join in at the second baffle, that way it doesnt get processed by the skimmer.
Make the middle section of the sump as long as you caan and do a PH to and from the chiller go from thier. skimmer is ok here also.
Ok return lines, going up and over will need a syphon break. but personally i would go to the bottom of the tank with the closed loop system.

Before we go into the closed loop system, tell me the pump you are using and what are the output lines from the OM thing.


Mike