NEW TO THE REEF.....Questions......

[LiVEWiRE]

Hello all. I am new to the reef keeping hobby, I have freshwater tanks 1 large and 2 smaller ones and am ready to start a reef tank. I don't have many challenges in freshwater so I am setting up a reef tank and also have some questions. First I would like to say I am going slow with this setup. I hear that is the way to do it and it pays off in the long run. Okay this is what I have got so far. I have a 40 gallon breeder tank its pretty good sized and I built a stand for it to hold the weight load of the reef. I made a 10 gallon sump with a total of 4 compartments. To feed the sump I have a CPR overflow that is rated to 800GPH. I have a power head that pumps at 270GPH to return the water to the tank. I know that I will have to get more flow in the tank but can you have to much flow? I have 40 lbs of live sand ready to be added to the tank but it says to add your salt water to the tank and I want to mix it in the tank for the setup. I have an RO system that makes 24GPD and have started making water after dis guarding the first 10 gallon.

First can you mix RO water with the live sand or do I have to mix it first and then add my sand? also With RO water do you have to still add a water Conditioner? I am planing on adding 60 LBS live rock and have heard that with the live sand and rock I don't need Bio filtration, Is this true? Also what other type of filter media should I use? Do you use the same basic ones like in freshwater? I have renew which is a good carbon substitute, Chemi-pure which does all kinds of things including stabilizing the PH. Purigen and Hypersorb which removes organic waste and you can regenerate it. and sometimes I will use some white diamonds. So what should i put in the sump? I also have a canister filter that I can put whatever in. I heard not to put sponges in the canister filter for saltwater but should I have one in the sump or Bio balls or something? I have Tropic Marin PRO-REEF Sea Salt mix for 200 gallon.

So far I have added about 10 gallons to the tank and will add more tonight before I go to sleep. Its just RO water not mixed yet. I will be getting lighting soon at about 4-6 watts per gallon is what I hear is good. I have Coralife hoods over 2 of my freshwater tanks and love them. I will most likely buy one of them. I know I need a protein skimmer but what size? I found one that does like 80 or 90GPH is that enough? And I have a heater already.

I have already filled the tank and sump with regular tap water and ran the system, checked for leaks, checked to make sure the sump wont overflow if power is lost. Then I drained the tank, overflow and sump and cleaned all of the water out So I am good on that. So please can anyone help me out here? This setup I want to do mostly reef with just a few fish. Thank you for your help. And again Hello to all.

 

[goldenmean]

Howdy Hoooooo!
Welcome to RS!!

As for your return pump if you have more than 800gph you will overfill your display tank. A mag 9.5 would be a good pump for you. If you went with a Mag 12 or another pump that has more than 800gph at the4-5 feet it travels from sump to display you can use a ball valve on the return pump to slow the flow down a bit.

Since you are going to mix the first salt water in the tank i would add the sand after I mixed the salt water. The sand will cloud up your water for a day or 3 but it will clear up. With RO or RO?DI water you do not need the water conditioners.

As far as skimmers go you want one that is rated 3 times more than your systems water volume so you would want a skimmer rated for 150g or more.
Dont skimp on a skimmer. It is your tanks best friend. There are a lot of threads here on RS on quality skimmers. also check out the product review section.

60 # of LR is Good!!

What type of corals do you want to keep? That will play a big role in what type (PC, T5, MH) of lights you should get

 

[lcstorc]

Welcome to RS!
Sounds like you have a lot of the basics already and that is great.
Yes you are going to need more flow but you already know that.
If you have an appropriate amount of LR that is all the biological filtration you need. As far as other filter media you can use a filter sock or filter pads as a basic mechanical filter. Often people will run carbon and/or phosban in their canister filters or in phosban reactors.
If you want to mix the salt in the tank then I would do it before you add the sand or maybe fill the tank halfway add double the salt and then add the sand and finish filling the tank. I do not recommend salting the water in the tank though. You are going to be doing many water changes on this system so you might as well go ahead and get a mixing container and a powerhead for mixing the water separately. The problem with doing it in the tank is getting all of the salt disolved.
As far as a skimmer the general rule is get one rated for twice the tank you have since most companies overrate their skimmers. Since you have a sump I would recommend an ASM G series skimmer. A G1 should be great for that tank. I have also heard good things about octopus skimmers but have never used one myself.
The other thing you really need to think about and plan carefully is the lights. Throw the watts per gallon out the window. There are just too many factors. First decide what kind of animals you want in this tank. Various corals require different levels of light. Clams and anemones require lots of light as do most hard corals. LPS and softies require less light. There are several different types of lighting you can choose from each with advantages and dis-advantages but the key factors are going to be the depth of the tank and what you want to keep in it.
Ok I think I hit most of your questions. If I missed one someone else will likely come by with an answer.
One thing I do want to mention that you may already know. Do not cycle the tank with fish. Use a piece of shrimp from the grocery store or any other amonia source. It is very rough and often fatal for the fish to go through the cycle.
Oh one more. If you are using RO/DI water you do not need water conditioners. You may need to add supplements to the water depending on your livestock and salt. You should get a good set of test kits and follow the rule of do not dose it if you don't test for it.
Ok I think I am done now.

 

[boozeman]

:welcomera looks like you've done your homework

 

[AQTCJAK]

Welcome Aboard

 

[Cal Native]

You are going to LOVE saltwater

 

[LiVEWiRE]

Thank you all for responding,
So can I use the mag 9.5 along with the return pump at 270GPH that I have now and pipe it into the display tank from the sump? Thats what I did with the pump on there now and put in a union so that I can take the tank out and clean it. So between 100-150GPH and Should I aim for one that I can put in the sump or should I get a skinny one and hang it on the back? I am trying to keep everything in the sump if possible. And i wont skimp on the skimmer.

As far as corals I am not sure what direction I am going so I would like to be able to set it up for whatever may come in the future. what ones are more forgiving in the beginning but don,t overcrowd? So that I can add others in the future. So that I can take it slow and get it right.

And yes lcstorc I do know not to cycle the tank with fish and besides some cost way to much unlike freshwater. The fish will be the last thing I add to the tank. I will cycle with a piece of shrimp from the store and also the bio whatyacallit bacteria that you buy refrigerated from your LFS. but how long do I keep the shrimp in the tank? I also have a nice test kit but need to get a few others for saltwater that I don't have yet.

Also the reason that I want to mix the salt in the tank the first time is that I don't have a 50 gallon can to mix it in I bought something like a 26 gallon can to mix it in because i normally do more frequent water changes on my freshwater and don't change more than 2/3rds max. I do more like 20% every 1- 2 weeks and then a 50-60% here and there. should that be different with the salt water?

 

[boozeman]

putting the pump in the skimmer will add heat to the water...this may be good or bad depending on what lighting you are planning....which in turn goes according to what type of coral you are planning to keep.
its a vicious cycle :scram:

 

[LiVEWiRE]

It sounds like it. Well i am not going to keep any corals that would require a chiller at this time. Maybe in the future but not on this particular setup.

 

[boozeman]

well a 40 breeder is shallow enough so that you wont need really strong lighting to keep most stuff.
do you like hard corals or softies?

 

[LiVEWiRE]

Well see thats where I don't really have a preference yet. I like the colors of the hard corals But one question is and this might be a dumb one. Can the hard ones crack the aquarium. On the other hand I like the soft ones because they seem to be more alive if you know what I mean. so some suggestions would also be much appreciated.

 

[lcstorc]

I have never heard of a coral cracking an aquarium. Maybe just something I have never heard of. Now a rockslide could certainly do it so make sure your rocks are nice and stable.
Glad to hear you already know about the cycle. Many people remove the shrimp after a couple of days. Really your testing will tell you. You want to leave it there until the amonia rises. I usually wait for it to go over 1 and I really like it to go to 2. It really depends on if you want a faster cycle or a hard cycle. I prefer to get a hard cycle and the last tank I got I let it completely rot since I was not in a hurrry at all.
You don't say anything about an anemone or clam so I am going to assume you don't plan on them. If that is true then you could go wit T5, MH or LED. The LEDs are new and expensive up front but the money you save on bulbs and electricity pays off in the end. MH are strongest but hot and not cheap. T5 depending on what you want are a nice option as well. Enough T5 lighting will allow you to keep most things but I would go for a fixture with several bulbs and individual reflectors. It is not as hot as MH but also not as bright.
You can keep both soft and hard corals in the tank by the way you place the corals. Hard corals need more light and flow and a cleaner tank. Soft corals don't need as much light or flow.
I would still not mix the water in the tank. Take a couple of days and mix in several batches in your water change container but that is just me. I tend to be over-cautious. Sounds like you have a good view on water changes. One thing about salt though is that you want to mix it with a powerhead and heater for 24hrs or more before using.
Sorry if you know all this stuff but you did say questions. Just trying to be sure the basics are covered. You seem to have done quite a bit of research already and that is awesome!

 

[framerguy]

Welcome to RS! It sounds like Lynn and Goldy have hooked you up with answers. Good job on the research and going slow. You're gonna love this place. Welcome again!

 

[LiVEWiRE]

Yes i am getting alot of answers here so that is great. As far as an anemone or clam what would I need different? I would like something that would turn the sand bed I saw somewhere that there is something that likes to eat the small partials in the sand and digs for them thus turning the sand over and over but can't remember what it was I will have to look again.

I was just wondering with the hard corals growing they could possibly crack the tank but it looks as if that wont be a problem. Also lcstorc you can never give me too much info. i am more than happy to get all the info you are willing to give. And that also goes for everyone else that is helping me out with these questions. Thank you all. But there is still the 1 question that I did not get an answer for the filter media for the sump filter. What should I use? I have decided to also use the canister filter and will use it for carbon so that is covered. And that also gives me an additional 265GPH going back to the show tank So now do I have enough return water? That would be 535 going into the show tank and my overflow is rated for 800GPH should I try to get closer to the 800 mark or that ok? I know from what goldenmean told me not to go over 800GPH returning to the tank or it will overflow.

I also keep reading about alot of reef tanks having a calcium reactor. Do I need one or should I go with calcium hydroxide or something like that to supply calcium and inorganic carbon? I hear a reef tank needs a fair amount of these to survive. Also what do most members feed their corals? Reef bugs, reef snow, Or what?

 

[lcstorc]

I will leave the flow question for others since I am not good at that stuff.
As far as what you would need for a clam or anemone the answer is very stable water parameters and lots of light. Generally Metal Halides though the new LEDs are sounding like a good alternative.
The only mechanical filter media I have used would be filter socks or filter pads. Either one would be fine. Some people don't use any mechanical filtration.
As far as the Calcium Reactor, they are good but I wouldn't worry about it at startup. It is something you can add later if/when you need it. It all depends on what you keep in the tank. If you have a lot of SPS and/or Clams then you will need to supplement the calcium in some way. A reactor is a great way to do it but you can also just supplement it particularly at the beginning when your needs are small.
HTH

 

[LiVEWiRE]

Well I like the idea of the LED's and saw in my one aquarium magazine that the Metal Halides that most reef keepers have are 400 watt systems that does not include small tanks and they say you can get by with not 400 but 175 watt Metal Halide systems for most corals. This was in an issue to make your reef tank energy efficient. It was in my AFI Jan 08 issue and has alot more in it that I have not got to yet. So what is everyones opinion on this?

 

[LiVEWiRE]

Also how much water movement do I need? and should I aim most of my return water in the same direction or should I change it up a bit? And still how much water should I return to the tank?

 

[tbittner]

One thing, a power head rated at 270 gph might actually do 270 gph when it's blowing the water directly horizontally from itself. Since your intention is to pump the water UP, probably about 4 feet, that 270 is going to be more like 2 gph. Seriously! It's called "head pressure" and the weight of the water in the pipe takes away from the actual water volume pumped.

The MAG pumps can be very loud AND very hot. The bigger ones, while they say submersible, really are meant for plumbing to and not for being submersed because of the heat they generate. I used Rio 36HF pumps, submersed, and I was getting just a bit more than 1200 gph out of it so I used a ball valve to slow the flow down just a bit.

For the plumbing running into the tank, keep in mind that if the electric goes out, it's going to create a siphon from the tank back down into your sump. Use a check valve in your pipe to stop that from happening. You can also drill a small hole just below the water level in the tank so when that much water is siphoned back down into your sump, the hole is exposed to air and the siphon is broken. You can also buy siphon breaking valves but the usual stores (lowes, home depot) don't carry them. Check valve is my preferred method and they work great.

 

[JFK_Jr]

 

[LiVEWiRE]

Well I just added the salt and mixed until it was all dissolved I put added carbon and ceramic to my canister filter and got that running. I added some filtration media in filter bags to the sump and also put in some polyester filter fiber. to catch the large thing and have a place for the bacteria. I added the sand 40 lbs and then also added 20 more lbs that I got while I was at the LFS. while I was there he also told me that I can go even deeper with my sand. He said in his reef tank in the back there was 14 bags of live sand. its 120 gallon and am not sure if he used 20 lb or 40 lb bags I will find out though. I am just letting the water move around now with the canister filter going and I added my power head for mixing to the tank for now. I am waiting to get enough RO water made to fill the sump to start it up.

tbittner thanks for the advice. But I did check all of that out before when I just had regular water in the tank. I went to look for a check valve at the LFS and thats when he told me to just drill the hole in the return line just under the water line. so thats what I did.

So now I am just waiting for about 8 gallons or RO water to start the sump system with adding the 60 lbs of live sand to the tank I cant see anything right now but the guy said in 4 days it will clear up. Oh yea I also bought a Skimmer today. I have not started it yet because I am waiting for the RO water to fill the sump but then I will let you know how It goes. It was rated for up to 100 gal tank so thats 2 times my tank size. and got it for $100 so I hope that works out ok.

So now I will put the shrimp in the tank tonight or tomorrow. I have to get the heater going because the water is cold. what is the ideal temp? I keep hearing different things. So any more suggestions?