Need Inputs on an article about using Distilled water for Reef

[Boomer]

so I don't I need to add anything in the DW addition to the salt.

No

There seems to be some confusion here.

Yes, that is for sure. You need to add nothing to DW or RO/DI top-off water. The ONLY time something is added to it is if your scheme is to add a needed sup to the tank, such a Calcium or ALk. Many people for example add kalk to their top-off water to sup their tank for calcium and Ak. If your alk and calcium are in check, such as running a calcium or kalk reactor, you just let the DW do the top off, nothing added or needed.

You guys are not thinkin' When water evaporates from your tank, the reason behind top-off, it is due to evaporation. That evaporating water is taking nothing with it. It goes out as a gas. If it is taking nothing with it then why does DW or RO/DI water need something added to it ?

Yes, I know many have already pointed this out. It just needed to be said again

at the very least, should be buffered and the pH adjusted before adding but does not have salt mixed with it. As far as distilled water stealing trace minerals away from sensitive invertebrates is a least an interesting thought.

This is all absolute nonsense. How is it stealing away ions form inverts. As soon as the water hits the tank, in a nanosecond, it is the same as seawater.

 

[pmac90]

I'm not confused, but i'm no Chem geek like Boomer I was merely adding to the topic... RO/DI and DW are ok - final answer. I personally, will being going to kalk but only on every other top off jug. i don't have nearly enough Stony Corals to suck out calcium that fast. In the jug opposite the kalk will just have ph buffer.

sorry for the geek thing Boomer.... much respect.

 

[Boomer]

You will not need that buffer either unless the *tank* needs buffer, them it is fine to do it

geek thing did not bother me at all

 

[pmac90]

ok, I'll just try kalk as calcium levels drop. any opinion on dow flake home made calcium supplements?

 

[SoliSteve]

Do not, under any circumstances use distilled water - a lot of assumptions are made about it being okay but I've witnessed reef tanks basically lose an awful lot of marine life when that has been done. Enough said on my account since I'm not a biologist or chemist but I have seen the horror stories behind its usage. It may not be immediate but it will happen.

 

[32Bit_Fish]

Do not, under any circumstances use distilled water - a lot of assumptions are made about it being okay but I've witnessed reef tanks basically lose an awful lot of marine life when that has been done. Enough said on my account since I'm not a biologist or chemist but I have seen the horror stories behind its usage. It may not be immediate but it will happen.

Man this is confusing. I've done the research and seen people who used DW for their tank, no ill effect.

I am curious about why you say that? any stories to support your statement?
I would appreciate your response.

Thanks

 

[Dentoid]

so I don't I need to add anything in the DW addition to the salt.

No

There seems to be some confusion here.

Yes, that is for sure. You need to add nothing to DW or RO/DI top-off water. The ONLY time something is added to it is if your scheme is to add a needed sup to the tank, such a Calcium or ALk. Many people for example add kalk to their top-off water to sup their tank for calcium and Ak. If your alk and calcium are in check, such as running a calcium or kalk reactor, you just let the DW do the top off, nothing added or needed.

You guys are not thinkin' When water evaporates from your tank, the reason behind top-off, it is due to evaporation. That evaporating water is taking nothing with it. It goes out as a gas. If it is taking nothing with it then why does DW or RO/DI water need something added to it ?

Yes, I know many have already pointed this out. It just needed to be said again

at the very least, should be buffered and the pH adjusted before adding but does not have salt mixed with it. As far as distilled water stealing trace minerals away from sensitive invertebrates is a least an interesting thought.

This is all absolute nonsense. How is it stealing away ions form inverts. As soon as the water hits the tank, in a nanosecond, it is the same as seawater.

Boomer-With all due respect we're talking about pH, not salinity. There can be a big enough shift in the pH if non buffered top off water is added too quickly that will affect sensitive invertebrates. Sure, if one has an auto top off unit, then this should not be a problem. Some professionals in marine husbandry and chemistry advocate buffering the RO/DI water. Since stability of our water chemistry is paramount it is imperative for us to do all that we can to maintain a stabile environment for our marine friends, as you know. I believe that the article 32bit fish quoted was talking about "...top off water..." not set-up water which was what he/she asked about. Adding two solutions of differing pH's will result in a solution with a different pH then the starting solutions. This becomes more critical in smaller volumes of water, like the 20 gallon tank that 32bit fish is setting up. Sure, distilled water may be ok to use for set up when a commercial salt mix is added, but for maintenance purposes and adding fresh water to top off, 32bit fish would benefit by knowing that topping off and setting up are different, and that during maintenance it's not ok to dump in 2 gallons of distilled water that has evaporated. I felt like the thread was more confusing then beneficial. Especially when words like minerals and ions are being bandied around-they are not the same, as you know.

Many people for example add kalk to their top-off water to sup their tank for calcium and alk.

Is this not buffering the top off water and/or raising the pH? Should one add kalk to their top off water to a pH of 9.0 and add it to a tank with a pH of 8.3? I think not. So why would one add distilled water with a pH of 7.0 to a tank with a pH 8.3? In either case the hydrogen/hydroxyl ion ratio is being altered. I'm not saying pH is something to supplement, it should remain stabile, within a biologic/physiologic range, and not changed quickly which can easily happen when topping off for those of us that don't have auto top off. Why a 0.4 change in human blood pH can result in death. This kind of shift can also kill invertebrates, if done too quickly.

at the very least, should be buffered and the pH adjusted before adding but does not have salt mixed with it. As far as distilled water stealing trace minerals away from sensitive invertebrates is a least an interesting thought.

This is all absolute nonsense. How is it stealing away ions form inverts. As soon as the water hits the tank, in a nanosecond, it is the same as seawater.

The article quoted in the 32bit fish's 1st post was talking about minerals, not ions as you suggest. In essence changing water pH is like stealing ions from aquatic organisms as their cells attempt to equilibrate. Invertebrate homeosis and their cell biology are sensitive and slow to change. I just thought the quote was an interesting concept and unless anyone can provide research that suggests otherwise, that is all it is, an interesting thought, a theory. However, I disagree with your statement, "As soon as the water hits the tank, in a nanosecond, it is the same as sea water." Especially from a pH standpoint and for maintaining stability.

Respectfully yours.

 

[Boomer]

Soils

Do not, under any circumstances use distilled water - a lot of assumptions are made about it being okay but I've witnessed reef tanks basically lose an awful lot of marine life when that has been done.

I do not buy it. You are the one assuming it is the DW. On what grounds is the DW different than RO/DI. Pure water is pure water. Almost all straight RO water will have more impurities than straight DW. Most DW is on the order of any RO/DI unit.

I'm waiting for someone tell me what the difference between RO/DI at 0-1 ppm and DW at 0-1 ppm ? Pure water is pure water. What do you guys think we used in labs or tanks, for years, when there was no such thing as RO/DI water............that is right DW.

Dendroid

Boomer-With all due respect we're talking about pH, not salinity

I think I know what I'm talking about. It is you that is very confused.

RO/DI or DS water will take on the pH of the water it is added to. When water evaporates it does not take buffer with it.The buffers actually increase during evaporation. When you then add RO/DI or DW the buffers and pH go back to where they were ( see below for more exact details).

Some professionals in marine husbandry and chemistry advocate buffering the RO/DI water[/b[

And they do not know what they are talking about. Would like me to bring Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley to agree with I have been saying and disagree with you have been saying ? It is a function of water chemistry. Which chemists advocate what you have said ? Who, I would like to know ? Bring one here. Want me to bring the SeaChem chemist here he will tell you same as I. I already know what his and Randy's answers will be. It has come up 100's of times on our Chem Forum. If you want to add a buffer or minerals feel free but it is not needed......period. It is a myth and just one of the many myths in this hobby. I have been at this for 40 years and my hobby within this hobby is water chemistry.

Adding two solutions of differing pH's will result in a solution with a different pH then the starting solutions

You are confused. We are talking about evaporated water. Re-read what I just said.

fish would benefit by knowing that topping off and setting up are different, and that during maintenance it's not ok to dump in 2 gallons of distilled water that has evaporated

It is most certain is OK. Where did those pH buffers go, like bicarbonate and carbonate, into some mysterious black hole ?

Especially when words like minerals and ions are being bandied around-they are not the same, as you know

More hogwash. When water has a resitivity of 18 megohms there are no ions or minerals, be it RO/DI or DW.


Is this not buffering the top off water and/or raising the pH? Should one add kalk to their top off water to a pH of 9.0 and add it to a tank with a pH of 8.3?

You have completely lost it here. Go back and re-read my last post. What did I say ?

This kind of shift can also kill invertebrates, if done too quickly.

What shift. If you add 2 gals of top-off water, to 100 gals, just dumped in, at a pH of 9. (98gal x 8.3) + (2gal x 9) /100 = 8.314. WHAT SHIFT ? pH 7 water added. = pH 8.274. WHAT pH shift ( see more detials below) ? And that would be in water where there has been NO evaporation. We are talking about evaporated water for the last time. We are not talking about a bucket of water that has a pH of of 8.3, where there has been NO evaporation and they adding water at a pH of 7 ( see below). If you take a glass of water and heat it up the water leaves as vapor and all the buffers and minerals are left behind.

The article quoted in the 32bit fish's 1st post was talking about minerals, not ions as you suggest[b/]

I do not care if is minerals or ions. What is a minerals to you or an ion. An ion is like Ca++ and a mineral is like CaCO3 and neither are there, greater than 1 ppm and that is the total of ALL minerals and ions.

In essence changing water pH is like stealing ions from aquatic organisms as their cells attempt to equilibrate. Invertebrate homeosis and their cell biology are sensitive and slow to change


I do not think you understand what you are talking at all.

You seem to be so set on pH but have said NOTHING on salinity. Do you think that when water evaporates there is no change in salinity ? Why aren't you telling him to add seasalt to his top-water ?? Based on your theory that is what he should be doing. Marine inverts are more sensitive to sifts in salinity than pH. But what happens when water evaporates the salinity goes up, just like buffers do. If you had an Alk of 200 ppm and 2 gals evaporated the buffers would increase 2 % now it is 204 ppm Alk. When you add pure water it goes back to 200 ppm, the same.

(98 x 1.0264) + (2 x 1.00) /100 = 1.0258 That is a bigger shift in salinity than pH quantively


All of this is in very simple terms and the subject is actually much more complicated than this and there is much more evolved. Randy gets into some of it see below. If you guys want to argue about DW then you have to also argue about RO/DI water, which has no minerals or ions either. We have heard the same **exact** arguments on RO/DI as you guys are arguing on DW.

From Randy on RO/DI which also has no minerals or ions.


Reverse Osmosis/Deionization Systems to Purify Tap Water for Reef Aquaria
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.php

Final Effluent pH

Aside from the issues discussed above concerning the effluent’s pH when the DI resin becomes depleted, the final pH coming out of an RO/DI system should not significantly concern reef aquarists. Many aquarists with low pH problems have asked, for example, if their aquarium’s low pH may be caused by their replacing evaporated water with RO/DI water that they measure to have a pH below 7. In short, the answer is no, this is not a cause of low pH nor is it something to be generally concerned about, for the following reasons:

1. The pH of totally pure water is around 7 (with the exact value depending on temperature). As carbon dioxide from the atmosphere enters the water, the pH drops into the 6’s and even into the 5’s, depending on the amount of CO2. At saturation with the level of CO2 in normal (outside) air, the pH would be about 5.66. Indoor air often has even more CO2, and the pH can drop a bit lower, into the 5’s. Consequently, the pH of highly purified water coming from an RO/DI unit is expected to be in the pH 5-7 range.

2. The pH of highly purified water is not accurately measured by test kits, or by pH meters. There are several different reasons for this, including the fact that highly purified water has very little buffering capacity, so its pH is easily changed. Even the acidity or basicity of a pH test kit’s indicator dye is enough to alter pure water’s measured pH. As for pH meters, the probes themselves do not function well in the very low ionic strength of pure freshwater, and trace impurities on them can swing the pH around quite a bit.

3. The pH of the combination of two solutions does not necessarily reflect the average (not even a weighted average) of their two pH values. The final pH of a mixture may actually not even be between the pH’s of the two solutions when combined. Consequently, adding pH 7 pure water to pH 8.2 seawater may not even result in a pH below 8.2, but rather might be higher than 8.2 (for complex reasons relating to the acidity of bicarbonate in seawater vs. freshwater).

 

[32Bit_Fish]

Hi Boomer,

I want to thank you for spending the time to explain everything and I feel like taking a chemistry course again.

Well hopefully I've learned something new about water chemistry.

So nothing needs to be added for top off water because all the elements in the water do not go with evaporation of the water.

BTW, I've tested my Distilled Water I bought from Duan Reade with TDS meter and the result was 0 PPM, my tap water has 40 PPM

I'm curious about the test result of bottle spring water. I think I can use spring water as long as it has 0 PPM, correct?

I will test PPM on bottled spring water and would post result here later.

Thanks

 

[pmac90]

Hey Boomer, pure water is pure water... that's what i was thinking. I think there have been some other issues to tanks that use DW and crash.
The formulas helped in what i was thinking about with certain buffers. I still on the other hand will use my top off water to add "lost" supplements such as calcium.
hey 32bit your getting a real lesson now... sorry for bringing up top off water. haha

 

[Boomer]

Bit

40 ppm is pretty good tap water. There is no such thing as Spring water that is 0 ppm, as that would make it RO/DI or DW. Some spring waters will actually be much higher than your tap water. Some spring water is not good for reef tanks. For example, Fiji bottled water, actually Artesian water, is 200 ppm with 85 ppm being just silica. Alpine Vallye bottled spring water is 150 ppm.

Pete

I think there have been some other issues to tanks that use DW and crash.

Well, 40 years in this hobby, 100,000 post and I have not heard of a single one, except here yesterday.

 

[pmac90]

Only 40 years Boomer? rookie. haha You probably have tools older then me.

 

[32Bit_Fish]

Hi Guys,

Alright, I dont want to prove anyone wrong. But I just want to see if there is any other type of water I can use for my tank. The more options I have the better it is.



I just tested a bottle of AquaFina purified drinking water. It is 100% water, no additives.. nothing.



TDS reading of 1 PPM. Can I use this water?



Thanks

 

[lcstorc]

I might use it in an emergency if TDS are at 1. I would try the lfs first though if you don't have your own ro or ro/di system. Most of the lfs here will sell you their water and it is usually cheaper than bottled water as well. You just have to bring your own container(s).

 

[32Bit_Fish]

How much and what are the difference between 0 PPM and 1 PPM?

0 and 1... by looking at the numbers. I dont see any significant difference..cnfzd:

 

[Boomer]

No Bit there is not that much of a differecne there. 1 ppm is fine. Some store bought RO will be 1ppm or even higher. But AquaFina is pretty pricey drinking water for a reef tank

 

[boozeman]

..on a side note, aquafina was a brilliant move on behalf of cocacola...it is just the filtered water that they were already using to make their sodas. all they did was slap a fancy label and spin it to marketing..and now it is making millions on the corporate treadmill

 

[32Bit_Fish]

Man, forget about AquaFina. It's more expensive than the Distilled Water I got from Duan Reade.

Thanks.

 

[Woodstock]

..on a side note, aquafina was a brilliant move on behalf of cocacola...it is just the filtered water that they were already using to make their sodas. all they did was slap a fancy label and spin it to marketing..and now it is making millions on the corporate treadmill

Brilliant indeed.