Need a little advice on my HT and disease treatment.

[Roots]

I'm having some trouble curing my fish, especially my Blue Tang of what I thought was Marine Ich but could possibly be Velvet? Or something else? I have been using Copper Power Medication and testing to make sure it's maintaining enough of a concentration to be effective according to the instructions. The fish have all been in the HT for 5 weeks & I am continuing to see signs of some kind of irritation or something on the Tang. She has been scratching on the decorations as well. The other fish look healthy without any signs or symptoms of disease. The other fish looked healthy when I put them in the HT, only the Tang was visibly stricken. Since being in the HT some of the other fish have gone through a cycle of the disease. The Clown showed a few spots at one point and then they were gone after a few days and the Cardinals had some kind of fuzzy? thing around their mouths that lasted for a few days and then was gone. The Wrasse has never shown any signs of illness. Everyone in the tank looks good now, except for the Tang. Hopefully with the video you can give me some input as to whether I need to do something differently. The Tang has improved drastically since I first put the fish into the HT. I though that the Tang might not make it she was so covered in spots and breathing very fast and was very lethargic but she bounced back and even looked completely cleared of disease at one point, only to have another outbreak. I'm just a little puzzled as to why she is continuing to have spots appear on her while in a HT being treated with Copper after 5weeks. I feel like I'm Am I crazy!? [YOUTUBE]QJnAi9hl4m8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Roots]

 

[dmatt88]

Are u using copper in a hypo tank?

.............stay thirsty my friend.

 

[PSU4ME]

I think he was referring to hospital tank in his "HT" reference.......i think

 

[Roots]

I think he was referring to hospital tank in his "HT" reference.......i think

Correct. Hospital Tank.

 

[Roots]

New Pics. You can see some irritated spots on the rear and middle of the Tang. On her left and right sides towards the base of the tail there is looking like a cloudy film or dull looking spot. Some scuffed up looking ares of her skin, especially around her face. I just can't get a pic that really shows it clearly the way I can see it in person.

 

[Roots]

Could it be Brooklynella? Sort of looks like the pics I googled.

I'm thinking it's Brooklynella. I read that it's more common that people think and it's often misdiagnosed initially as Ich or Velvet. Symptoms are very similar to both of those ailments, but the sloughing off of skin and areas of damaged looking skin match Brooklynella. Now I guess I need to get Formalin so I can dip my fish?

 

[DaveK]

It's really tough to tell from the picts. I suspect several possible things. 1) A secondary infection, possible brooknella. 2) Damage the tang did to itself because of it scratching on the decorations. 3) Possible scars from where the ick was. Ick really leaves welts on a tank, and they take some time to heal.

I'd get the meds for treating brooknella and an antibiotic for treating possible other infections, but I'd hold off using them. Watch the fish every day and see if it gets any better. As long as it's getting better, leave things along. If it stays the same or gets worse, then medicate.

 

[PSU4ME]

also.....maybe remove the decorations and replace with pvc elbows....much more fish friendly

 

[Roots]

also.....maybe remove the decorations and replace with pvc elbows....much more fish friendly

couldn't I just add some PVC elbows behind the decorations. I really don't see what's wrong with my decorations.

As for my fish's illness. I think I am going to treat it like brooklynella and see what happens. I am having a hard time finding Formalin anywhere within reasonable driving distance of my house. My LFS will order me some and have it on Monday. Until then I am going to be doing Freshwater dips and see how the fish respond. If the Tang starts to show improvement from the Freshwater dips I will just keep the Formalin as a standby incase of a later problem with new fish, if not I will try the Formalin and see what happens. I put some carbon in the HT to start removing the Copper. Maybe the Copper is causing some kind of irritation to the Tang. Thoughts?

 

[leebca]

Can't help it. My main thought is that there's a lot of guessing going on and very little help been giving the fish. This is not Brook.

 

[sk8rdn]

I really don't see what's wrong with my decorations.

1. It's obviously rough enough to scratch a fish and leave damage.
2. Fake decos are meant for goldfish. The plastics they use can leach stuff after long exposures to salt.
3. Intricate crevices trap dirt, debris, poop, food, etc.. and make it very hard to maintain a clean QT
4. Most severely hamper your ability to visually inspect your fish easily. A 90 elbow usually isn't big enough for a fish to actually hide well.
5. Pipes are easier to clean properly after QT and medication

....Secret Super Hero....

 

[Roots]

Can't help it. My main thought is that there's a lot of guessing going on and very little help been giving the fish. This is not Brook.

So.... Suggestions? Or are you just commenting for no reason? If you are so sure it's not Brooklynella, then how about enlightening me as to what it is Dr.leebca.

1. It's obviously rough enough to scratch a fish and leave damage.
2. Fake decos are meant for goldfish. The plastics they use can leach stuff after long exposures to salt.
3. Intricate crevices trap dirt, debris, poop, food, etc.. and make it very hard to maintain a clean QT
4. Most severely hamper your ability to visually inspect your fish easily. A 90 elbow usually isn't big enough for a fish to actually hide well.
5. Pipes are easier to clean properly after QT and medication

....Secret Super Hero....

Fair enough. I can see the logic there. What about the fish though? Forget your dislike for my decorations for a second and maybe lets try and actually offer up some helpful advice for getting my fish healthy. That's why I posted this originally.


The Tang looks a little bit better today. I put the carbon in the filter yesterday, so the Copper is being removed from the tank slowly. I'm going to observe and if I think she needs it, I'll try a few freshwater dips, but if she improves, I will just let her be and observe.

 

[Brandon78]

That's not a comment for no reason. It helps out by taking out one possibility. There just tryin to help. I have first hand experience that Decorations are indeed not safe. Many reasons especially what Bill said. I had them in my tank when I started and they were trouble. PVC is the way to go. It's not the dislike of decorations, it's facts. If it was an opinion of ours to take out decorations then I can see where your coming from, but it is fact that they are not good Just helping not criticizing.

 

[sk8rdn]

So.... Suggestions? Or are you just commenting for no reason? If you are so sure it's not Brooklynella, then how about enlightening me as to what it is Dr.leebca.


Fair enough. I can see the logic there. What about the fish though? Forget your dislike for my decorations for a second and maybe lets try and actually offer up some helpful advice for getting my fish healthy. That's why I posted this originally.


The Tang looks a little bit better today. I put the carbon in the filter yesterday, so the Copper is being removed from the tank slowly. I'm going to observe and if I think she needs it, I'll try a few freshwater dips, but if she improves, I will just let her be and observe.

Wow buddy.... let's slow you're roll.... I just answered a question that you asked. That's all. And more to it, I answered the only part that I felt I could answer with any clarity and accuracy. I personally could care less about the decor of your QT/HT, I am (like others on here) are just trying to help you out. The reason the rest of us only make suggestions is because we didn't do our PhDs in fish diseases like Lee has. So anything we say is just pure speculation. Just a suggestion, but I'd first start by not biting the hand of the one certified expert opinion on here that CAN help you out.

So, let's take this methodically... (in no certain order)

1. Clean, unobstructed, safe environment in which to observe and treat
2. Once a medication has been started (especially copper) it MUST be run through to completion or it will do absolutely no good. This is the same reason when a doctor prescribes you antibiotics he tells you to take them for 20 days. Not until you feel better, but 20 days. It's all about the proper dose of the right medication for the proper length of time minimum. The only exception is in EXTREME emergencies...
3. Without a 100% positive ID, you are shooting in the dark with medications. And administering medications back to back to back is very hard on the fish, let alone their ability to get healthy. Consider having to go through Chemo, then open-heart surgery, then radiation, then barometric pressure treatments... It'd suck for you too. So before we go switching up medications again, let's let Lee properly ID if possible.
4. A healthy and PROPER diet is key. Lettuce and pellets wont cut it. So make sure the fish is eating right or it may not make it through any treatments, even mild ones. Also, at the risk of seeming condescending, this is a tang and tangs are herbivores so make sure there is very little meat proteins in what you do feed. A lot of frozen things (say mysis) are not in their feeding diets in the wild, let alone in the doses we give them.

We all know what it's like to have a sick fish. All of us have lost fish. We all know how much of a panic feeling there is and the helpless feeling that follows when a fish does get sick. So please, relax and let's work through this instead of attacking people.

 

[dmatt88]

Wow buddy.... let's slow you're roll.... I just answered a question that you asked. That's all. And more to it, I answered the only part that I felt I could answer with any clarity and accuracy. I personally could care less about the decor of your QT/HT, I am (like others on here) are just trying to help you out. The reason the rest of us only make suggestions is because we didn't do our PhDs in fish diseases like Lee has. So anything we say is just pure speculation. Just a suggestion, but I'd first start by not biting the hand of the one certified expert opinion on here that CAN help you out.

So, let's take this methodically... (in no certain order)

1. Clean, unobstructed, safe environment in which to observe and treat
2. Once a medication has been started (especially copper) it MUST be run through to completion or it will do absolutely no good. This is the same reason when a doctor prescribes you antibiotics he tells you to take them for 20 days. Not until you feel better, but 20 days. It's all about the proper dose of the right medication for the proper length of time minimum. The only exception is in EXTREME emergencies...
3. Without a 100% positive ID, you are shooting in the dark with medications. And administering medications back to back to back is very hard on the fish, let alone their ability to get healthy. Consider having to go through Chemo, then open-heart surgery, then radiation, then barometric pressure treatments... It'd suck for you too. So before we go switching up medications again, let's let Lee properly ID if possible.
4. A healthy and PROPER diet is key. Lettuce and pellets wont cut it. So make sure the fish is eating right or it may not make it through any treatments, even mild ones. Also, at the risk of seeming condescending, this is a tang and tangs are herbivores so make sure there is very little meat proteins in what you do feed. A lot of frozen things (say mysis) are not in their feeding diets in the wild, let alone in the doses we give them.

We all know what it's like to have a sick fish. All of us have lost fish. We all know how much of a panic feeling there is and the helpless feeling that follows when a fish does get sick. So please, relax and let's work through this instead of attacking people.

William. Bill for short. Bravo. Hail to ya dude well done.

.............stay thirsty my friend.

 

[StirCrayzy]

It may also help the stress level of the tang to seperate from the group. Or at least some of the group.
Petco has $1 per gallon tank sale, its hard to pass up an extra QT for exactly this situation.

Also let me reinforce the positive atmosphere we have here.
if you are looking for hope/help it would be to you and your tangs advantage to stay positive.
What you are reading has positive, helpful intent, keep this default mindset.

Unlike some forums that have stripped common decency off the agenda, this is a true haven (Sanctuary) of enthusiasts who honestly want nothing more than to see you (and your fishies) have a healthy, successful experience.

 

[Roots]

Apologies

Alright, I concede to removing the decorations. I will buy some various PVC elbows and Pipes. I admit I was frustrated with seeing my Tang looking poorly and I reacted poorly in turn. I apologize for ruffling any feathers and I actually do appreciate everyone's replies and trying to help me with a diagnosis. I am fairly certain that leebca is was correct in saying that the affliction was not Brooklynella. While searching for Formalin in my area I talked with several different Aquarists working at various stores and the general concensus was that it was probably the Copper medication causing discomfort to the Tang and thus the scratching. I was advised by a couple of them to just install some carbon to slowly remove the copper from the tank and observe whether or not the Tang recovered. If not I was told to try Freshwater dips before using any more medications.

So after just a day with the carbon in the filter The Tangs skin cleared up to looking perfect. Bright Blue, deep Black and bright Yellow without any blemishes at all. Swimming normally, not scratching or apparently uncomfortable. Eating regularly; I feed flake, mysis, pellets, and Seaweed. Everyone looks happy and healthy at this point. Today is 6 weeks in the HT and I'm hoping for them to stay looking healthy for the next week so I can reintroduce them to the DT.

On another note... My almost brand new light already needs a bulb! Doh! :smack: It's always something.

 

[leebca]

Re: Apologies


Realistically, I doubt it was copper or that carbon would help (because carbon can't remove low levels of copper, anyway). What really was the issue was time for full recovery. One poster hit upon it, but it was buried in a myriad of other, unhelpful thoughts and suggestions. I figured in a week or so it would go away.

Getting and following good advice is hard. Always demand to know the credentials and qualifications of those you seek advice from. If you hold back doing this, you run the risk of chasing your tail, leaving the fish ultimately without the right kind of help. Good luck!

 

[Roots]

Re: Apologies

Realistically, I doubt it was copper or that carbon would help (because carbon can't remove low levels of copper, anyway). What really was the issue was time for full recovery. One poster hit upon it, but it was buried in a myriad of other, unhelpful thoughts and suggestions. I figured in a week or so it would go away.

Getting and following good advice is hard. Always demand to know the credentials and qualifications of those you seek advice from. If you hold back doing this, you run the risk of chasing your tail, leaving the fish ultimately without the right kind of help. Good luck!

Is 5 weeks using Copper medications a normal duration for treatment? Do you think it WAS Ich after all?

As I understood it, Copper bonds with any carbonate based items in the tank. That is why you are not supposed to have any sand or rock in a HT if you are using copper medications. Am I wrong? I'm pretty sure I read that here on Reef Sanctuary in the FAQs concerning use of Copper medications.