Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything
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johnmaloney
Well-Known Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
they probably wouldn't eat it
they probably wouldn't eat it
Tuscaquatics
Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Since I got a skimmer (albeit a SeaClone) I feel a lot safer. The scrubber is still working well, but I feel like the ATS is better for simply algae control, not as an all-in-one filtration method.
And one of the things I was always wary about was the need to not do water changes. I think I'd rather do water changes occasionally then try and start dosing things that can quickly get out of hand.
Since I got a skimmer (albeit a SeaClone) I feel a lot safer. The scrubber is still working well, but I feel like the ATS is better for simply algae control, not as an all-in-one filtration method.
And one of the things I was always wary about was the need to not do water changes. I think I'd rather do water changes occasionally then try and start dosing things that can quickly get out of hand.
johnmaloney
Well-Known Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
wcs are important for sure. did you try basting the rocks? was there detritus to be stirred?
wcs are important for sure. did you try basting the rocks? was there detritus to be stirred?
Tuscaquatics
Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Yeah I basted the rocks. There was some detritus on the rocks. I'm ordering new powerheads tonight to help with dead spots.
Yeah I basted the rocks. There was some detritus on the rocks. I'm ordering new powerheads tonight to help with dead spots.
Tuscaquatics
Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Two new Koralia 3's on the way to blast that detritus out of every nook and cranny.
Two new Koralia 3's on the way to blast that detritus out of every nook and cranny.
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
All of it, except the ammonia from it sitting in the cup for so long. Get over what it looks like. Skimmate is food. More specifically, food that was added to the tank, or waste from the fish, etc. This is what feeds real reefs. Waste (detritus) IS the food of reefs. Oh, and copepods too. Matter of fact I feed my tank continuously with a blended mess of liquid "food".
Except for the ammonia (from sitting in the cup), skimmate is the best food you can feed corals. And it is exactly the food that feeds the corals on real reefs. If you put a skimmer on a real reef, the skimmate would be exactly the same.
Of course. Put food in a cup for a week. Same thing. Get over what food smells like.
You shouldn't be dosing anything except Ca And Alk. Maybe Iron. Everything else comes in the food you feed, and more so than you ever need.
Certainly... if you need to reduce Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate, since skimmers don't remove these. Everything else, except for Ca and Alk, are in the food you feed.
If you let that stuff circulate around, it will feed a lot of your corals (just like a real reef.)
All of it, except the ammonia from it sitting in the cup for so long. Get over what it looks like. Skimmate is food. More specifically, food that was added to the tank, or waste from the fish, etc. This is what feeds real reefs. Waste (detritus) IS the food of reefs. Oh, and copepods too. Matter of fact I feed my tank continuously with a blended mess of liquid "food".
Except for the ammonia (from sitting in the cup), skimmate is the best food you can feed corals. And it is exactly the food that feeds the corals on real reefs. If you put a skimmer on a real reef, the skimmate would be exactly the same.
Of course. Put food in a cup for a week. Same thing. Get over what food smells like.
You shouldn't be dosing anything except Ca And Alk. Maybe Iron. Everything else comes in the food you feed, and more so than you ever need.
Certainly... if you need to reduce Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate, since skimmers don't remove these. Everything else, except for Ca and Alk, are in the food you feed.
If you let that stuff circulate around, it will feed a lot of your corals (just like a real reef.)
johnmaloney
Well-Known Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
alleopaths as well? why not just feed the coral mysis or bbs? don't you feel a targeted approach would work better? like, rics want something bigger like mysis so i should feed my rics mysis etc...? Do skimmers really pull out pods? I have never seen it but maybe ...? Do pods get eaten by coral? I get that they will eat them, but how often do you see benthic critters getting eaten in the water column?
alleopaths as well? why not just feed the coral mysis or bbs? don't you feel a targeted approach would work better? like, rics want something bigger like mysis so i should feed my rics mysis etc...? Do skimmers really pull out pods? I have never seen it but maybe ...? Do pods get eaten by coral? I get that they will eat them, but how often do you see benthic critters getting eaten in the water column?
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Allelopathics are eaten by bacteria too. Only in cases of things like leathers in small tanks do they get to harmful levels. So maybe in those cases carbon or skimming might be needed.
No I don't think targeting is better, because it's more work, and most people won't do it or will do it wrong. If you must have larger food, and you don't have a gigantic fuge, then yes you'll have to. But scrubbers provide a snowstorm of copepods, so if that food size will do then it may be all you need. A small scrubber will feed a medium sized mandarin in a 10 gal tank and make it fat.
I thought that this was well known. Certainly skimmers pull out pods. Been documented many times. Pods (and waste) ARE what corals eat, in addition to some DOC and phyto depending. Benthic critters come out at night, which is one of the reasons why corals feed at night.
Allelopathics are eaten by bacteria too. Only in cases of things like leathers in small tanks do they get to harmful levels. So maybe in those cases carbon or skimming might be needed.
No I don't think targeting is better, because it's more work, and most people won't do it or will do it wrong. If you must have larger food, and you don't have a gigantic fuge, then yes you'll have to. But scrubbers provide a snowstorm of copepods, so if that food size will do then it may be all you need. A small scrubber will feed a medium sized mandarin in a 10 gal tank and make it fat.
I thought that this was well known. Certainly skimmers pull out pods. Been documented many times. Pods (and waste) ARE what corals eat, in addition to some DOC and phyto depending. Benthic critters come out at night, which is one of the reasons why corals feed at night.
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Why Algae Works
More Info:
Algae and Human Affairs, By Carole A. Lembi, J. Robert Waaland, Phycological Society of America
PSA: Phycological Society of America
Algaebase :: Listing the World's Algae
Text: 90 percent of all living matter (except bacteria) in the ocean is algae of all forms and colors. The remaining 10% (except bacteria) of all living matter in the ocean is: Corals, Plants, Sponges, Worms, Snails, Clams, Octopi, Shrimp, Crabs, Pods, Urchins, Starfish, Small Fish, Medium Fish, Big Fish, Sharks, Whales, Giant Squids, and Everything Else. The algae is what does all the filtering of the waste from the animals, and the algae is also what feeds all the animals through the various food webs.
Aquariums, however (especially ones without refugiums), have no algae to do the filtering or feeding. So all the filtering has to be done manually with equipment, and all the feeding has to be done manually too. At least with a refugium, there is some filtering and feeding, although most refugiums are far too small to do all of it. Scrubbers are powerful enough to do all the filtering by themselves, and can do a lot of the feeding too, if copepods are the food that is desired.
Why Algae Works
More Info:
Algae and Human Affairs, By Carole A. Lembi, J. Robert Waaland, Phycological Society of America
PSA: Phycological Society of America
Algaebase :: Listing the World's Algae
Text: 90 percent of all living matter (except bacteria) in the ocean is algae of all forms and colors. The remaining 10% (except bacteria) of all living matter in the ocean is: Corals, Plants, Sponges, Worms, Snails, Clams, Octopi, Shrimp, Crabs, Pods, Urchins, Starfish, Small Fish, Medium Fish, Big Fish, Sharks, Whales, Giant Squids, and Everything Else. The algae is what does all the filtering of the waste from the animals, and the algae is also what feeds all the animals through the various food webs.
Aquariums, however (especially ones without refugiums), have no algae to do the filtering or feeding. So all the filtering has to be done manually with equipment, and all the feeding has to be done manually too. At least with a refugium, there is some filtering and feeding, although most refugiums are far too small to do all of it. Scrubbers are powerful enough to do all the filtering by themselves, and can do a lot of the feeding too, if copepods are the food that is desired.
Boomer
Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
John
cyano doesn't need iron to grow
The more iron there is the more Cyano grows. Reducing iron is a key inhibitor to Cyano growth. At certain iron levels there is a shift in the dominant algae from other algaes to Cyano. The shift, for some, starts at 0.1 ppm iron but can be higher for others. However, in most aquaria we should not see iron this high and most reef tanks are way to low in iron based on past reef tank tests. Similarly, as the Manganese rate increases there is a decrease in Cyano growth as it inhibits Cyano uptake of iron.
See..
The Biology of Cyanobacteria by Carr and Whitton
John
cyano doesn't need iron to grow
The more iron there is the more Cyano grows. Reducing iron is a key inhibitor to Cyano growth. At certain iron levels there is a shift in the dominant algae from other algaes to Cyano. The shift, for some, starts at 0.1 ppm iron but can be higher for others. However, in most aquaria we should not see iron this high and most reef tanks are way to low in iron based on past reef tank tests. Similarly, as the Manganese rate increases there is a decrease in Cyano growth as it inhibits Cyano uptake of iron.
See..
The Biology of Cyanobacteria by Carr and Whitton
Tuscaquatics
Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Blowing the detritus off of the rocks and out of the corners seems to have helped some with the cloudiness. I also put some of that filter floss (the cottony stuff) in the power filter to catch the detritus. The mechanical filtration seems to help. The only sponge I have in the tank is on the skimmer and I notice that it catches a lot of stuff on it.
I know that with the scrubber we're not supposed to have sponges or anything to catch stuff, but without mechanical filtration, where is this mass supposed to go?
My Koralias should be coming in today. I ordered them Thursday night and they're coming from Cali all the way to Alabama. Now that's fast shipping. I'm hoping the extra flow will help keep things from settling.
Blowing the detritus off of the rocks and out of the corners seems to have helped some with the cloudiness. I also put some of that filter floss (the cottony stuff) in the power filter to catch the detritus. The mechanical filtration seems to help. The only sponge I have in the tank is on the skimmer and I notice that it catches a lot of stuff on it.
I know that with the scrubber we're not supposed to have sponges or anything to catch stuff, but without mechanical filtration, where is this mass supposed to go?
My Koralias should be coming in today. I ordered them Thursday night and they're coming from Cali all the way to Alabama. Now that's fast shipping. I'm hoping the extra flow will help keep things from settling.
Tuscaquatics
Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
What do you know? They're already here. Two new Koralia 3's. How do you guys think I should set them up. I realize it's somewhat subjective. How about each one in the back top corner blowing down and towards the front glass so maybe their flow intersects at the front?
Any suggestions?
What do you know? They're already here. Two new Koralia 3's. How do you guys think I should set them up. I realize it's somewhat subjective. How about each one in the back top corner blowing down and towards the front glass so maybe their flow intersects at the front?
Any suggestions?
Keifer1122
New Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
well its been couple weeks shy of a year since i installed and everything is great my corals have grown very nicely. Since its been on ive only done 2 water changes which werent needed but done anyways. the only thing i dose is Ca/Alk.
Tuscaquatics: the only other thing that i can think of making your tank whitish cloudiness is that your fish are stirring up the sand bed. i had a horseshoe crab do this until he fell victim to my Lta. u said u had a damsel, and damsels like to fluff their beds/sand divets or that blenny of yours.
I am a true believer of this setup with not 1 negative result. So throw down your protein skimmer/zeovit and join the ATS revolution! Peace
well its been couple weeks shy of a year since i installed and everything is great my corals have grown very nicely. Since its been on ive only done 2 water changes which werent needed but done anyways. the only thing i dose is Ca/Alk.
Tuscaquatics: the only other thing that i can think of making your tank whitish cloudiness is that your fish are stirring up the sand bed. i had a horseshoe crab do this until he fell victim to my Lta. u said u had a damsel, and damsels like to fluff their beds/sand divets or that blenny of yours.
I am a true believer of this setup with not 1 negative result. So throw down your protein skimmer/zeovit and join the ATS revolution! Peace
johnmaloney
Well-Known Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
i think i had said that earlier...
Glad it helped! Keep on it and each time you are about to turn the lights off on the tank and will notice much less going into the water column, and the cloudiness should subside. It will take some time, just keep on it. The mass in a ATS only goes back into the tank to settle on the rocks and cause the problem you are experiencing, using mechanical filtration to remove it helps out quite a bit.
i think i had said that earlier...
Glad it helped! Keep on it and each time you are about to turn the lights off on the tank and will notice much less going into the water column, and the cloudiness should subside. It will take some time, just keep on it. The mass in a ATS only goes back into the tank to settle on the rocks and cause the problem you are experiencing, using mechanical filtration to remove it helps out quite a bit.
johnmaloney
Well-Known Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
oops! sorry duplicate post, was having a "database problem encountered" problem for a second there.
oops! sorry duplicate post, was having a "database problem encountered" problem for a second there.
johnmaloney
Well-Known Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Oh nevermind, I figured it out now...the bold was a quote. We were discussing iron as a limiting factor in the growth of algae on the ATS. Trace amounts of iron are sufficient I believe to keep cyano growing, I have never heard of anyone able to successfully grow macro while limiting cyano growth from iron limitation, but maybe I am wrong. Will check into it. What species of cyano was the author referring to?
Oh nevermind, I figured it out now...the bold was a quote. We were discussing iron as a limiting factor in the growth of algae on the ATS. Trace amounts of iron are sufficient I believe to keep cyano growing, I have never heard of anyone able to successfully grow macro while limiting cyano growth from iron limitation, but maybe I am wrong. Will check into it. What species of cyano was the author referring to?
johnmaloney
Well-Known Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
And I stand corrected, cyano can be limited in its growth if iron levels are at a level lower than what salt mixes at, and what macro algae need. In an ATS system though, it wouldn't work to limit iron and run the ATS at the same time.
And I stand corrected, cyano can be limited in its growth if iron levels are at a level lower than what salt mixes at, and what macro algae need. In an ATS system though, it wouldn't work to limit iron and run the ATS at the same time.
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
But the "mass" from a scrubber should not be re-entering the system at all. New discoveries (like this week) are showing that the long green hair algae (which seem to be every reefer's goal) are the very algae which act like a parachute in the the current, and thus get swept away. More and more evidence is pointing to the screen itself as the mechanism that holds the green hair algae in place. And a very very rough and prickly (sharp) screen is what seems to do it. Thus, a properly built scrubber should not be letting any algae mass go back into the system. Pod mass, however, will always continue.
But the "mass" from a scrubber should not be re-entering the system at all. New discoveries (like this week) are showing that the long green hair algae (which seem to be every reefer's goal) are the very algae which act like a parachute in the the current, and thus get swept away. More and more evidence is pointing to the screen itself as the mechanism that holds the green hair algae in place. And a very very rough and prickly (sharp) screen is what seems to do it. Thus, a properly built scrubber should not be letting any algae mass go back into the system. Pod mass, however, will always continue.
silverflamez88
Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
hey all recently read this thread a couple times and built an ats for my reef tank as i have had constant N&P probs however i seemed to have missed the part about not using window screening, the screen was only on for a day max before i realized it wasnt to be used. do you think any kinda of major damage would have been done to the tank from the day of fiberglass windowscreen? thanks for all the help this thread is amazing!!!
hey all recently read this thread a couple times and built an ats for my reef tank as i have had constant N&P probs however i seemed to have missed the part about not using window screening, the screen was only on for a day max before i realized it wasnt to be used. do you think any kinda of major damage would have been done to the tank from the day of fiberglass windowscreen? thanks for all the help this thread is amazing!!!