Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

[Tuscaquatics]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Since you are not going to post pics, just read the answers are in the FAQ below.

I'll post some pics tomorrow. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. I don't want to ditch the ATS.

Actually there's a couple in my gallery. But I'll post better ones tomorrow.

 

[johnmaloney]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Algae die off is generally about limitations. If there is no nitrate in your tank, your algae will die off. If there is no phosphate in your tank ditto. (When it reaches a happy medium, that is import of nutrients = consumption you get a reading of zero) There is another major nutrient, (nobody tests for the minors so I won't bother), but that is iron. If your aquarium is iron depleted from the turf algae growing too fast, it will wither or will not grow anymore and nitrates and phosphates will continue. Based on Liebig's law of the minimums, the idea is simple, for example if your car needs four tires to run, and you have only 3, you can't drive, no matter how good the condition of the other 3 tires. (He did it with a barrel, can only fill it to the highest hole - well stave but anyway here is a link.) If it is your turf algae, than one of those 3 things , (assuming light is not a problem) is likely your culprit. If one of those is missing, all the flow and additional light won't solve a thing.

The other likely scenario is that you have a bacterial bloom. A long term solution to a bacteria bloom is a skimmer, which removes free floating, (not the desirable benthic), bacteria. The quick fix is a decent size water change and to run carbon. The long term fix if you run into a chronic problem is a protein skimmer. With proper husbandry, a protein skimmer will not be necessary, but it can be useful.

So before you remove the ATS, do multiple water changes and run carbon until the tank clears, and then see if the problem comes back. If it does, then experiment with removing the ATS, doing water changes and running carbon and see if it stays clear. If it doesn't try a skimmer.

Edit - Oh well I should have just checked your gallery. You are running cyano on the ATS, cyano doesn't need iron to grow, so you can skip that portion. Try the water change and carbon, that should help with the bacteria bloom.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Algae die off is generally about limitations. If there is no nitrate in your tank, your algae will die off. If there is no phosphate in your tank ditto. (When it reaches a happy medium, that is import of nutrients = consumption you get a reading of zero) There is another major nutrient, (nobody tests for the minors so I won't bother), but that is iron. If your aquarium is iron depleted from the turf algae growing too fast, it will wither or will not grow anymore and nitrates and phosphates will continue. Based on Liebig's law of the minimums, the idea is simple, for example if your car needs four tires to run, and you have only 3, you can't drive, no matter how good the condition of the other 3 tires. (He did it with a barrel, can only fill it to the highest hole - well stave but anyway here is a link.) If it is your turf algae, than one of those 3 things , (assuming light is not a problem) is likely your culprit. If one of those is missing, all the flow and additional light won't solve a thing.

The other likely scenario is that you have a bacterial bloom. A long term solution to a bacteria bloom is a skimmer, which removes free floating, (not the desirable benthic), bacteria. The quick fix is a decent size water change and to run carbon. The long term fix if you run into a chronic problem is a protein skimmer. With proper husbandry, a protein skimmer will not be necessary, but it can be useful.

So before you remove the ATS, do multiple water changes and run carbon until the tank clears, and then see if the problem comes back. If it does, then experiment with removing the ATS, doing water changes and running carbon and see if it stays clear. If it doesn't try a skimmer.

Edit - Oh well I should have just checked your gallery. You are running cyano on the ATS, cyano doesn't need iron to grow, so you can skip that portion. Try the water change and carbon, that should help with the bacteria bloom.

Good post. I'm running a skimmer now. I've tried carbon and a massive water change. And the pic of the scrubber is old so there's different stuff growing on it now. I need to take some new pics and put them up, but it will have to be later since I'm at school right now.

At this point it could be the turf dying off since I added a skimmer. But I doubt it since it was happening before the skimmer and the skimmer didn't seem to put a dent in the scrubber's output.

And carbon didn't seem to help. I even tried some Chemi Pure in a power filter but it didn't really help. Same with a HOT Magnum micron filter.

This really sucks.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

1. Maloney is not correct.

2. A skimmer will not kill your growth.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

1. Maloney is not correct.

2. A skimmer will not kill your growth.

What is Maloney wrong about?

Why won't a skimmer inhibit growth? If it's pulling organics out of the water before they become nitrates or phosphates, wouldn't that result in less nutrients to feed the scrubber?

 

[johnmaloney]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

skimmers remove free floating particulates that feed bacterial blooms. that is what they do...

are you using RO/DI for the water changes? If your input water is high in nutrients, then water changes will have the opposite effect...

Does your Chemi pure arrive moist? or dry? It should be moist... Is it a white cloudiness, or a light green cloudiness? A light green, (or dark green), can be a sign of a micro algae bloom, in the case of a micro algae bloom your major nutrient levels (phosphate and nitrate - but mostly phosphate in these scenarios) are high, (yet the nitrate portion can remain undetectable, there are few decent phosphate tests out there, do you test for them?) and you should work to bring them down. The tint of the water should be noticeable, but some times it is yellowish...A white cloudiness is usually a sign of sporolation or bacterial bloom.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

skimmers remove free floating particulates that feed bacterial blooms. that is what they do...

are you using RO/DI for the water changes? If your input water is high in nutrients, then water changes will have the opposite effect...

Does your Chemi pure arrive moist? or dry? It should be moist... Is it a white cloudiness, or a light green cloudiness? A light green, (or dark green), can be a sign of a micro algae bloom, in the case of a micro algae bloom your major nutrient levels (phosphate and nitrate - but mostly phosphate in these scenarios) are high, (yet the nitrate portion can remain undetectable, there are few decent phosphate tests out there, do you test for them?) and you should work to bring them down. The tint of the water should be noticeable, but some times it is yellowish...A white cloudiness is usually a sign of sporolation or bacterial bloom.

I use Walmart distilled water for water changes. The ChemiPure was moist. It's a whitish cloudiness. I don't test for phosphates, heard most tests are worthless. I don't have much of a bioload in the tank. Only a striped damsel, cinnamon clown, lawnmower blenny, sand sifting star, coral bsnded shrimp, few snails and few soft corals. Also I'm using Phos Zorb right now.

 

[johnmaloney]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

you heard right, most phosphate test aren't very useful, the Hagen company is an exception, at least I think. I used it with calibration fluids, (probably a little inaccurate because I messed with them), but the test was pretty close. For what it is worth, I like them, I think they own API now, or maybe it is the other way around...oh well....Red Sea Phosphate test didn't detect phosphates in a 5ml vial of phosphates so I don't use that kit anymore, but maybe someone else's experience differs.

any live rock die off? possible sponge die off?

the bacteria bloom and sporolating cover about 90% of cloudiness problems, but there can be a myriad of other reasons. Let sjust assume it is a bacteria bloom and your skimmer, (does it pull skimate?), isn't keeping up and the chemical media isn't enough.

Do you blast your rock with a turkey baster to get up the settling debris? It is likely to make the situation worse at first, but if you continue doing it until the basting no longer creates detritus clouds it seems to help if the bloom is feeding off of detritus that has accumulated on your rock. Alternating the flow of the powerheads every so often also helps, but if you do the turkey basting, after a few weeks, you should see very little debris coming off the rocks, assuming you have something to filter it out of the water.
(Well, assuming you have something running to remove the particulates - I use a pre-filter pad and clean it when it needs it, works well. Micron sieves help and your skimmer should have some increased output in the cup)

Baste the rock real quick, don't be too scared to bast the holes and nooks in the rock, this is where most of the detritus will accumulate. And with the exception of blowing your coral off the rock, feel free to give it a blast. Ocean packs far more punch than that baster, your LR inhabitants can handle it.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

A skimmer will not reduce scrubber growth because the limiting agent in most tanks is phosphate, which is sequestered and thus buffered into the rocks and sand. As a scrubber removes the phospate from the water, the phosphate then comes out of the rocks and sand, which keeps the levels up in the water, until such a time that it is finally removed to a low level.

Skimming not only does not remove phosphate from the water, it does nothing to remove the bound phosphate from the rocks and sand. Thus you can skim all day and still have high phosphate levels in the water, which lets the scrubber grow.

 

[johnmaloney]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

not sure I said that skimmers remove phosphate, if I did I apologize but.... They do remove some of the decaying food that will become phosphate, thus reducing overall phosphate levels. The stuff that is left over, and becomes dissolved phosphate and/or nitrates should be removed by algae, either through ATS or chaeto etc... It also helps to remove waste in the same way, which is phosphate rich as fish turn food into energy giving of CO2 and phosphate. So while skimmers don't remove dissolved nutrients of any kind, (and I am pretty sure I didn't say they did), they remove the excess food and waste that will eventually become ntirates and phosphates.

 

[MountainFish]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Here's a question for you guys.... could you do the algea turf scrubber in lieu of the first sector in a sump? ie (area in sump where water comes in, hits foam, carbon, etc... before going to skimmer, etc.)

If you could make a spray bar that allowed the water to maintain the proper flows through your sump could this work? Also, do you think it'd be effective? I mean, the thread suggest that the system could replace your skimmer so could that type of application work in a sump/refugium situation?

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

So while skimmers don't remove dissolved nutrients of any kind, (and I am pretty sure I didn't say they did), they remove the excess food and waste that will eventually become ntirates and phosphates.

But they don't do it very well. Otherwise, there would be no nuisance algae on the rocks or glass. With a scrubber, however, the nuisance algae on the rocks starts disappearing right away. And you have to clean you glass less. And this is on top of the fact that all the food stays in the water for the corals and small fish to eat.

Mountain: If you look at the example scrubbers in the link below, you will find many answers.

 

[johnmaloney]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

1. Maloney is not correct.

Where did I go wrong?

Hey Mountain, it wouldn't serve the same purpose. Carbon media while removing organic wastes, also removes alleopathic chemicals, like those secreted by coral to inhibit the growth of competing coral. Your pre filter pad protects your pump from sand and other irritants, and also collects detritus in a way that is easy to clean off. It would be best if you could get both running. Skimmers, carbon and pre-filters have different purposes than an ATS.

SM- what is in these cups that you would prefer to have in your tank:
skimmate cup - Google Images

 

[sneaks03]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Personally I agree with John's spot on advice. So not sure where you are talking about him being wrong, but I know I don't mind being proven wrong and I am sure John will atleast hear you out.

 

[johnmaloney]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I don't think he is wrong either, I just think the two, (skimmer vs. ATS) do two different things. I also don't think the food value of what is skimmed outweighs the detriment value. I mean, how many of you would buy skimmate to feed your coral?

 

[sneaks03]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Yeah if it sounded like I was saying SantaMonica is wrong then I am sorry, not what I intended.

 

[lcstorc]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

IF anybody wan't to buy skimmate, I will be happy to sell it.
Stop by any time or pay for postage and nose plugs for me and it is yours.

 

[johnmaloney]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Yeah if it sounded like I was saying SantaMonica is wrong then I am sorry, not what I intended.

no it didn't, but i think that is what SM thought I was saying. I am in the "I happen to have a different opinion then you SM" area, instead of "you are wrong". I don't think we were talking about the same things anyway...

lcstorc - good thinking on the nose plugs. That stuff doesn't age like wine.

 

[lcstorc]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I don't think age has anything to do with it. The fresh stuff is bad enough for me.

 

[johnmaloney]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I had a skimmer pump go down and after I unplugged the pump I waited until I got a new pump to clean the cup, it probably sat a week...wow...wow. I didn't get any on myself but felt the need for a shower.