Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

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Builds Of The Day:

This one is from "Sandztorm" on the RP site; it is a version of the nano that I listed on page 1, where a simple screen replaces the foam filter in the hood, and a light is added on top:

This one from "Coopattack" on the FG site wraps the PVC around the bottom of the screen to hold it in place:

Here is a trough version by "framerguy" on the CR site (the lights have since been lowered closer to the trough):

This one from "Labman" on the MD site wanted a taller one in a more narrow size, so he attached two plastic canvas screens together:

"Johntanjm" from the MD site placed screens on both sides of the bulb, instead of a bulb on both sides of the screen:

"Mrobo77031" on the UR site just attached the pipe and lights to the stand, and put some reflective material around it:

And "Mudshark" on the MASA site just drilled the pvc with holes, and wrapped a screen around it:

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[jenglish]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

That design was probably the "dumping" one, that filled up and tipped over. Was discontinued due to a lawsuit over the patent, correct, although the patent expired in 2003. Was a very large contraption, noisy, salt spray, and you could never put it under your tank. Plus, folks back then did not clean the screens in their sinks, and thus got yellowing. Plus plus, those units started at $800, and went to $3000. Wow.

the ones that Inland was making back then were dump buckets like Adey used. They were a little noisy but they were quite effective and even then the screens were removable but they were expensive. I had a buddy that had one of the last pre- lawsuit units on a 125. THe one I had had no moving parts but was a horizontal unit were only one side grew algae. I will say that the water at Inland tends to be a little yellow or at least it used to be and the stoney growth was slow but its a different paradigm that was not designed for maximum growth. But the shear size of their ATS on their grow out tanks in the back is impressive. the dump bucket still has its pluses but it is noisy, generally less efficient than waterfall, is quite heavy, has more moving parts, and does need mounted above tank. It does however serve as movement and I believe has a greater capacity for pod production. just my 2 cents.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Well here is my 7-day cleaning from yesterday. First, here's the screen before cleaning, looking at the the edge:

Here's the screen after cleaning:

And here's what was removed:

So it was a half-pound of wet green hair, about the same as last week. Once thing about cleaning green hair compared to real turf (my other screen that's now at the LFS) is that it slides off so easy, it's hard to leave any on the screen. I tried to only clean one side, but some of the other side detached too. You can almost just run tap water over it, and the loose stuff comes off. Maybe a better design is two half-screens, so you can just pull one out and clean it completely, while not touching the other one.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Reminder Of The Day:

Why Larger Is Not Better: A larger screen, by itself (without larger lights), is not better than a smaller screen. This means that if you want more nitrate and phosphate removal from your water, the best way to do it is by getting stronger lights, or by moving the lights closer to the screen. If all you do is get a larger screen, the new larger edges of the screen will be too far from the light to have any effect. Of course, the most effective way to increase nitrate and phosphate removal is to do all three: Increase screen size; add more lights to cover the new screen parts; and position all the lights closer to the screen.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Text Version:

Food --> fish,corals --> Organic Nitrate, Organic Phosphate.

Organic Nitrate, Organic Phosphate --> Bacteria --> Inorganic Nitrate, Inorganic Phosphate.

Inorganic Nitrate, Inorganic Phosphate --> Algae --> Oxygen

 

[calabdiver]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

hello I have a 12 gal. cubemaster nano looks very similar to the jbj models my question is instead of pumping from tank to the bucket and then letting bucket drain back to tank can I leave the bucket under stand and pump from the bucket back to the tank much like a standard sump operation?

 

[jenglish]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

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[jenglish]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Text Version:

Food --> fish,corals --> Organic Nitrate, Organic Phosphate.

Organic Nitrate, Organic Phosphate --> Bacteria --> Inorganic Nitrate, Inorganic Phosphate.

Inorganic Nitrate, Inorganic Phosphate --> Algae --> Oxygen

I'm not sure how it would be represented in the diagram but I think that the simple equation of the algae only producing oxygen could be misleading. I think it could give someone who only glanced at that nutrient break-down the impression that you do not need to remove the algae because all it is turning out is pure oxygen. I realize that this is not what you are trying to suggest and anyone who read the whole thread would know that. If you are going to put on oxygen then I would put CO2 as an output for the first two lines, as fish, corals and bacteria are all going to be putting out CO2. I realize you were just trying to make a simplified diagram, I just wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea. In theory with a large enough system you could just put the algae back in as the fish food or food for the small critters that your fish eat. Without that it is still essentially the process of balancing nutrient import and export.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

You are correct saying that more lines would be more accurate, but I tried adding extra lines and it just started looking like a MapQuest map. I think that's why so many people don't understand that Inorganics feed algae, and Organics feed fish/corals... the relationships are just too complex. But if I can just get this one point across, scrubber operation will seem simple.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

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Reminder Of The Day:

Feeding: Here are the two building block articles by Eric Borneman that cover what happens when you feed your tank. This information is what you need to know to understand what scrubbers do:

The Food of Reefs, Part 5: Bacteria by Eric Borneman - Reefkeeping.com
The Food of Reefs, Part 6: Particulate Organic Matter by Eric Borneman - Reefkeeping.com

Here is an excerpt from the second one:

"Detritus [waste] ... is the principal food source for the many bacterial species that work in various nitrification and denitrification activities. Before reaching the microbial community, however, [waste] acts as a food source for the smaller consumers such as amphipods, copepods, errant polychaetes, protozoans, flagellates, ciliates and other animals whose activities contribute to the stability and productivity of a coral reef and a coral reef aquarium."

and

"Of the many food sources available to corals and already discussed in this series of articles, particulate organic material [waste], dissolved organic material [DOC/DOM], and bacteria are the most universally accepted food sources"

and

"The use of detrital material, or particulate organic material, as food source is a cornerstone of coral reef ecology and forms what is well accepted to be the base of the entire food chain"
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[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

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Here's one reason I really like using scrubber without a skimmer. My purple gorg and red feather star stay open and extended all day and night, even though they naturally do so only during the night. But since there is no skimmer removing organics (food), and since the scrubber adds pods to the water all day, not only do they eat well, but they do so 24/7. Note: You cannot keep filter feeders likes these if you have a skimmer...

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/My90starAndGorg.jpg
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[jenglish]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

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Here's one reason I really like using scrubber without a skimmer. My purple gorg and red feather star stay open and extended all day and night, even though they naturally do so only during the night. But since there is no skimmer removing organics (food), and since the scrubber adds pods to the water all day, not only do they eat well, but they do so 24/7. Note: You cannot keep filter feeders likes these if you have a skimmer...

Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/My90starAndGorg.jpg
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those look quite healthy but I'm a bit murky on one thing. Are you saying you can't keep filter feeders at all w/ skimmer or just you can't keep them extended all the time w/ a skimmer?

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

At all.

 

[jenglish]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

At all.

I have to disagree with that statement. You can keep filter feeders in a skimmed tank. If you are running high flow and a large skimmer then it may become neccasary to target feed. So yes it can require more care but they can still be kept in a berlin style tank.

 

[elliottb]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

So, supposedly this guy is some kind of spammer....

Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY! - Reef Builders Forums

He is doing the same thing on many many forums. And many of these forums have banned him, deleted his threads, etc.

 

[jski711]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I wouldn't say spammer by any means. I have ditched my skimmer and started using this method in my sps reef and it has worked great. Im sure the reason he was banned had nothing to do with trying to show people there are different ways to do things. It was probably because of arguments with close minded people that think there is only one way to do things , usually its their way or no way.

Jake

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Stages of an aquarist's happiness with a scrubber:

1. The day you see the first very light-brown color on the screen.
2. The day you see the screen covered left to right, top to bottom.
3. The day AFTER you think you saw your N or P test go down. Because that day after, you tested again to be sure.
4. The day you realized, for sure, that the the piece of filtration equipment you removed last week was really and truely not needed.
5. The day you finally realize that the N and P problems you've been fighting for (weeks, months, years) are finally gone.
5. The day another aquarist asks you, "How did you do it?"

 

[elliottb]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I wouldn't say spammer by any means. I have ditched my skimmer and started using this method in my sps reef and it has worked great. Im sure the reason he was banned had nothing to do with trying to show people there are different ways to do things. It was probably because of arguments with close minded people that think there is only one way to do things , usually its their way or no way.

Jake

I dont know all the details....but I personally have no problem with the ATS. I personally am not going to use it but that doesnt mean it doesnt work. I wil stick with the DSB and plants like cheato, halodule wrightii and mangroves.

I was just posting that so you are aware of what is going on. Im not saying ban him or anything, Im just saying keep an eye on it. There is some reason he was banned and there is some reason he has posted on so many different forums. Look where he hosts his pics....its a radio talk show or something. At reefbuilders when he is asked a questions he either makes smart remark or just ignores the questions even though it is asked multiple times.

 

[jski711]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

elliottb~ please don't take my remark as a personal shot to you. i did know that he has posted this in MANY forums and there are a lot of people who don't agree with what he has come up with. I don't know this guy personally just from this forum and this has worked well for me. As far as his responses to people i can't comment on those because they are not mine. At any rate who really knows why he was banned from other forums but i personally don't care. again this wasn't a shot at you so please don't take it that way.

thanks,

Jake

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

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Text Version:

Nutrients, part 3

The amount of Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate that a scrubber removes is directly controlled by how much light-power hits the scrubber:

1" - The light-power is full strength.
4" - At 4" distance, the same bulb power has to cover four times the area, so the power per square inch is only 25 percent of what is was (reduced 75%).
6" - At 6" distance, the same bulb power has to cover nine times the area, so the power per square inch is only 11 percent of what is was (reduced 89%).

This is why placing the bulb very close to the scrubber is extremely important.
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