LIVE ROCK vs. DEAD ROCK???

Mike Bivens

Member
More advice please!!! As I await the arrival of the new red sea 650 . I am looking at aquascaping options. Live rock vs Dead rock. How risky is it to introduce live rock ( air ) to a tank and get bad hitch hitchhikers I have read may articles and seen many videos and getting mixed answers. Some good some bad. Obviously I want to get the tank up and running sooner then later but not at the expense of having to deal with some bad critters. And if live rock is a safe (or almost safe) where is the best place to purchase it. (Reliable / trustworthy / quality ). Or is it best to go to the local reef store and purchase it? Again Thanks for assisting me on this.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
More advice please!!! As I await the arrival of the new red sea 650 . I am looking at aquascaping options. Live rock vs Dead rock. How risky is it to introduce live rock ( air ) to a tank and get bad hitch hitchhikers I have read may articles and seen many videos and getting mixed answers. Some good some bad. Obviously I want to get the tank up and running sooner then later but not at the expense of having to deal with some bad critters. And if live rock is a safe (or almost safe) where is the best place to purchase it. (Reliable / trustworthy / quality ). Or is it best to go to the local reef store and purchase it? Again Thanks for assisting me on this.

As with everything in this hobby this is personal preference.

I HATE live rock. I will never use it. I’ve had horrible experiences with hitchhikers, Aiptasia, and probably bryopsis because of live rock. I strongly believe in going with either man made rock or dry rock and not inviting problems in.

My personal favorite is man made. I primarily used A Purple Reef in my last two tanks. My review of what I used is here:

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/...-real-reef-caribsea-shapes-rock-review.98353/

With man made you have no unwanted problems and since it’s cured I had no cycle time. I tested with Dr. Tim’s ammonia and it was good to go right away.

I also personally like the look, but that’s very much personal preference. In the long run, it all gets covered anyway, though. On that note, remember that the look that matters is under reef lighting. My rocks look very different under reef light than regular light.

There are also lots of different types of dry rock that are good, but of course they will take longer to cycle.
 
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Uncle99

Well-Known Member
Fully agree with Pat24601.
Bad hitchhikers, phosphate leaking, just plain crap from the LFS store.
True live rock is purple, fresh, smells like salt water, no dingy white stuff which takes forever to encrust. My LFS was taking rock from mistreated aquariums people let sit absorbing phosphate.

This rebuild I found this carb-sea pre-encrusted dry rock which I used 90% and I added one small live rock I had for years to seed.

The only draw back so far is the price....$9.00 per pound Canadian

It's like freeze dried rock that's already purpled up!

Very happy!
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Fully agree with Pat24601.
Bad hitchhikers, phosphate leaking, just plain crap from the LFS store.
True live rock is purple, fresh, smells like salt water, no dingy white stuff which takes forever to encrust. My LFS was taking rock from mistreated aquariums people let sit absorbing phosphate.

This rebuild I found this carb-sea pre-encrusted dry rock which I used 90% and I added one small live rock I had for years to seed.

The only draw back so far is the price....$9.00 per pound Canadian

It's like freeze dried rock that's already purpled up!

Very happy!

I’ve been debating seeding my rock with coralline. I waver back and forth between thinking it’s pretty and @DaveK ‘s philosophy that it’s just another nuisance algae once you need to clean your pumps. Normally, I agree with DaveK, but I’m running a FOWLR (kinda), so I’m debating changing my mind.

What do you think?

I completely forgot to mention the phosphate leaks from old tank rock. Yeah, that sucks.
 

Mike Bivens

Member
I actually like the live rock as well, But knowing 30 years ago when I had my salt tanks I got bristle worms really bad and could not get rid of them. I don't want that again. Its such a toss up..
 

Uncle99

Well-Known Member
Hey Pat, that's a great question, to seed or not to seed.
I think it looks natural and good for the system overall but can be a nuisance as well
Since I am retired, the extra cleaning of mostly the glass is not a problem.
So probably a question more of time and how much maintenance you want to do....

As to the question of moving out hitchhikers later...good luck on that one!
 

Uncle99

Well-Known Member
My only complaint is that up here in the North, live rock is mostly rock, kept in a container, with water. So this makes it live rock?

I’ve seen live rock on reefs before, it’s actually very porous and light, covered with several different types of algae.

That being said if I was starting a new tank, 90% dry, with 10% “live”
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
More advice please!!! As I await the arrival of the new red sea 650 . I am looking at aquascaping options. Live rock vs Dead rock. How risky is it to introduce live rock ( air ) to a tank and get bad hitch hitchhikers I have read may articles and seen many videos and getting mixed answers. Some good some bad. Obviously I want to get the tank up and running sooner then later but not at the expense of having to deal with some bad critters. And if live rock is a safe (or almost safe) where is the best place to purchase it. (Reliable / trustworthy / quality ). Or is it best to go to the local reef store and purchase it? Again Thanks for assisting me on this.

This is a case where everybody is right. All of the methods work. You just need to figure out what is best for you.

Live rock is going to be expensive for a large tank. An RSM 650 holds about 170 gal of water. Using the usual recommendation of 1 lb of rock per gal of water, your going to need about 170 lbs of rock. Looking at one of our sponsors, Pacific East Aquaculture, the lowest price is $6.79 per pound ground shipping included. This is a typical price, although you might find something better. That works out to $1,154.30. You could use a bit less rock, but even so that's still going to be a lot.

Live rock does have a risk of unwanted hitchhikers. On the other hand, you do get a great diversity of life on it. I was finding new items on my rock for a couple of years after I first added it. However if you get something like a mantis shrimp, it's going to be a #$%^&*( job to remove it.

Live rock, unless you get it from a long established tank, can also be expected to have some die off. This can mean a big initial cycle of the tank. This is not necessarily bad, but does take time. As a note, you should inspect new live rock and remove things like large sponges, obvious hitchhikers, and anything else that is going to just die.

Dry rock is going to be lots less expensive, and you'll need to give it time to fully cycle and become live rock. This can be months. It doesn't mean you can't add other livestock, but you do need to take this into consideration and under stock. After a few years, it will have all kinds of growth, and be about the same as live rock.

Using a mix of live rock and dry rock does have the advantage of costing a lot less and you still get most of the advantages of the live rock diversity of life. However, it only takes one rock with one hitchhiker you don't want to cause a problem.

The question to ask yourself is what do you want out of the tank and how much do you want to spend. You really can't go too far wrong here.
 
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Pat24601

Well-Known Member
One thing I'm not sure I was quite clear on in my earlier post that I thought I'd mention in more detail just in case it matters.

One thing that very much surprised me with A Purple Reef rocks was the fast cycle time. I think this would be true for Real Reef rocks as well, but I haven't truly independently tested.

What I did was I set up a 32 gallon biocube using nothing but A Purple Reef Rocks. I then added Dr. Tim's ammonia so that my ammonia reading was 2ppm. The next day, both my ammonia and nitrites were 0, indicating a fully cycled tank.

This really ran counter to so much of my instincts on cycle time that it made me very nervous, but I went ahead and added fish and continued to monitor a couple of times a day and never had any problems.

I've been told that I should expect the same results if I had tried Real Reef rock, but when I used Real Reef, I used it in conjunction with A Purple Reef, so I can't independently verify that.

Either way, I WOULD definitely test to make sure your tank is cycled always rather than just assume it is, but that was my experience.

I seem to be one of the few people on forums I read that has even tried this type of rock, so I like to comment about it so people are aware another option is out there. They may or may not like that option. I think the aesthetics one way or another is probably they key driver. I like the aesthetics, while others may not.

As @DaveK said, there is no wrong answer it. I'm not sure if you even care about cycle time. But, I wanted to be clear about it since I made only a passing comment about it above.
 

Mike Bivens

Member
For the red sea 650, I have decided to go with dry live rock I am going to use 120 lbs of pukani I also ordered 1 lg Tonga shelf. along with the live sand I will use I am going to line the bottom of the sump with 6 marine pure blocks. Is that enough? I figured its not a sprint with this tank its a marathon. Take my time. Cure the rock, cycle the tank correctly. Even though the wet live rock would be great from day one I don't want to regret it, Once I get everything in place I will be adding some bacteria to help start. Thanks again everyone and If I am missing something or way off track please let me know.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
For the red sea 650, I have decided to go with dry live rock I am going to use 120 lbs of pukani I also ordered 1 lg Tonga shelf. along with the live sand I will use I am going to line the bottom of the sump with 6 marine pure blocks. Is that enough? I figured its not a sprint with this tank its a marathon. Take my time. Cure the rock, cycle the tank correctly. Even though the wet live rock would be great from day one I don't want to regret it, Once I get everything in place I will be adding some bacteria to help start. Thanks again everyone and If I am missing something or way off track please let me know.

Those are excellent choices. A lot of people go that route and love it.

I had seachem seed recommended to me to speed up the cycle. As it turned out, I didn’t need it so I can’t speak to how well it works, but you might try it.

http://www.aquavitro.com/products/seed.html
 
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Uncle99

Well-Known Member
From a high level, and going forward, be careful of everything and everyone that's going into your tank, especially those ones who may be a challenge to get back out, and those who present challenges in water, territory, and feeding. That doesn't mean you can't have " stuff" just that you recognize inhabitants that "fit" and which ones may be better left in the sea.

Good choices, get to each stage of the cycle, lock her down, and HAVE FUN
 

StirCrayzy

Well-Known Member
Live ! But yes thats going to mean careful observation before/during introduction to the tank. Ive had whelks gorilla crab, and a pistol shrimp show up unexpectedly , but 90% good creatures if i had to avg it out. Havent added new rock in 8ish years, then last time i re-scaped, discovered ive had a very decent sized peanut worm because i just happened to face its cave straight forward toward the glass. The fun just never ends!
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
I wonder what percent do live vs. dry. I know my LFS really pushes the live. I didn’t even know dry was a viable option until well after I was in the hobby.
 

StirCrayzy

Well-Known Member
Why wouldnt they push Live? Its higher priced, looks great, teeming with life.
Like everything else in life, you answer many questions if you follow the $$.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Live ! But yes thats going to mean careful observation before/during introduction to the tank. Ive had whelks gorilla crab, and a pistol shrimp show up unexpectedly , but 90% good creatures if i had to avg it out. Havent added new rock in 8ish years, then last time i re-scaped, discovered ive had a very decent sized peanut worm because i just happened to face its cave straight forward toward the glass. The fun just never ends!

I was definitely finding new stuff in my life rock years after I put it in the tank. If you don’t mind the potential problems, that can be a lot fun.

Clearly, I prefer no problems, but I totally get why someone would want live rock.

No wrong way to go for sure.
 

Squatch XXL

Well-Known Member
I too always start with dry rock for all the same reasons others voiced. It can take much longer to fully cure, but if you are in it for the long haul it is worth the headaches it saves. You can always cure rocks in a plastic tub, so waiting for a tank can be done while rocks get through the cycle. My 90g took 11 months and a new home to finish, and 8 or so months the rock was in cure tubs.

Personal preference really. It all depends on what you want from a system. I have had operational systems for a few years, and I have yet to have one aptasia or nuisance algae that I was not responsible for.

ALWAYS seek bacterial diversity. IF you know other reefers as you start your cure, ask for the SLUDGE they vacuum from the bottom of their tank. This may or may not be common practice, but I always look to diversify my micro cultures, and feel that is the most impressive part of the whole system. You know it is working right when even the water seems alive, and is hungry. It takes time to get to that, but when it finally works, it is amazing.
 

Mike Bivens

Member
Red Sea 650 max s LED tank just came in!!!!!! So excited until I opened the crate and noticed the back wall was broken... what a buzz kill.... But it is what it is... Is anyone familiar with there policies for returns or replacements. I will go on the Red Sea Forum and find out more info there.
Thanks Mike-
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Red Sea 650 max s LED tank just came in!!!!!! So excited until I opened the crate and noticed the back wall was broken... what a buzz kill.... But it is what it is... Is anyone familiar with there policies for returns or replacements. I will go on the Red Sea Forum and find out more info there.
Thanks Mike-

Bummer. I think they are really good about this sort of thing, but definitely buzz kill.
 
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