Ick - it's ICH!

[Camille]

Background:

1,000l tank with LPS and softies

hippo tang 2.5"
orange shoulder tang 6"
sailfin 6"
yellow tang 4"
purple tang 3.5"
black tang 5"
2 clowns 2", 2.5"
2 bartletts anthias 2" ea
1 lyretail anthias 3"
1 flame tail blenny 3"
1 court jester goby 1.5"
1 copperband 3"
1 royal gramma 2"
2 pink skunk clowns 2" ea
1 blue streak cleaner wrasse 2.5"
1 flame hawkfish 2"
1 bangaii cardinal 2"
2 firefish 2" each
1 sixline wrasse 2"

Fish added over 3 years.

It's 2m x 1m and 50cm deep. Loads of live rock with heaps of caves and tunnels. More live rock in the sump. There is heaps and heaps of swimming room. The tangs have got along swimmingly (pun intended) until the last few days.

I have never used a QT (please don't growl at me) as I was told by the LFS that in NZ fish are quarantined for so much longer than fish in the states that it wasn't necessary. :bugout: I'm learning now that that is certainly NOT true. I was also told "not to worry when my fish got the white spots initially as long as my fish are healthy they will be fine. All tanks have white spot. Try PolyLab" I did and guess what: it doesn't work.

I got the black tang a few months back. A few days after he was added to the DT he developed a few white spots. A few days later he had heaps of them. He looked more like a gem tang. He was well fed and behaving normally so I kept him in the tank and added garlic power to the nori sheets. The spots went away but the orange shoulder and sailfin tangs have kept scratching on the substrate and visiting the cleaner wrasse. Sure enough the sailfin has spots all over him this morning. The yellow has been crazy the last few days and chasing the purple. Today the yellow hid from me when I went close to the tank. Usually they all come over for a feed. The others came over as usual.

I am now getting my head around treating the fish properly for WS. The problem is is that there is so much contradicting information from experts. Here is what I think I've learned so far.

1. There seems to be an agreement that copper is a poison that will lesson the life of your fish but will 100% kill WS.

2. Hypo usually works. Keep hypo (1.009) for 4 weeks after the last spot has disappeared then 4 weeks at normal salinity before being returned to DT. Less stressful/harmful than copper on the fish. 35% WC every other day (or more if NH4, NO2 are measured). PH will be hard to maintain. Baked baking powder dripped in will help to stabilize PH.

BUT: Bob Fenner says that hypo can kill your fish and not the WS! And to use quinine.

Oh boy!



I seem to be leaning towards hypo. I have a 500l which I was going to put my hadonni in. I also have a 250l (with some puffers I can farm out) and a 120l I was using to cycle rock.

Should I....

Put all my coral, inverts I can find and the hadonni in the 500l and treat the DT with hypo. I understand that any live critters in the sand and rock will be sacrificed but the bacteria will possibly be OK. Put the yellow (and maybe some of the smaller fish) in the 250l and treat that with hypo too. By using the two tanks to treat with hypo I can spread the bio load a bit more. Both tanks have skimmers rated for double the tank size if heavily stocked. They also have ATO's for stable salinity. And ammonia and PH are constantly measured with Seneye's.

OR

Use the 500l, 250l and 120l to treat the fish. I worry that I have too many fish for those sized tanks.

OR

Something else???



:help1:

:tears:

 

[Thauro77]

I am just getting rid off the ich on my long horn cowfish. He used to look like a pretzel with all the white spots. I used Ich Attack by Kordon and Garlic extreme. I used the garlic everytime I feed him since he loves to eat right of my fingers and dose the water with the Ich Attack twice a day. He seems more like a fish now and less like a pretzel and is eating like a hippo and moving corals arroud. I think he thinks of himself as a decorator. He also has a little help from the engenier blenny, they both are building a subway!!!!!

 

[Fishdad1]

Would it be harder to move the coral or fish?

 

[Camille]

Would it be harder to move the coral or fish?

Fish.

The corals are pretty tame and let me pick them up. Unlike those pesky fish :dummy:

I'd have to take out all the rock and coral to get the fish out. Which if I want to catch the yellow I'd have to do anyway…. I'm OK with that.

 

[Steve L]

With a tank that size, catching all of the fish for quarantine will be impossible if you have a lot of live rock. If it were me I would keep feeding the heck out them them and leave them in the display tank. DON'T try hypo salinity in your display tank. You'll most likely kill all of the beneficial bacterial in addition to the ich. I would let the fish fight off the infection and hope for the best. Many of us roll the dice and don't use a quarantine tank, many of us do. Either way there aren't any guarantees and you can still get ich even after quarantine. It's times like this when the hobby can suck.

 

[Talon33]

HMM in my opinion you have two options. You can live with the ich in your tank and take certain measure to not try to cause in major stress in the DT. That could cause a massive ich outbreak. I will say this. I have a 125 gallon with 3 tangs. One is a powder blue tang. I have ich in my tank and live with it. Every now and then the PBT may show some signs of ich but never too bad. Some hobbyist may say leaving your tank like this is a ticking time bomb and a risk. And i will agree with that. It is just the gamble i decided to take and hasn't been a bad choice so far for a year.

Second option: Pull all fish from the DT and treat them with hypo or copper. DO NOT treat in the DT. Especially with copper. Even with hypo you will kill off bacteria and other life forms. And what happens when you have an excess dead matter or any organic matter in your tank? Water chemistry swings and ammonia spikes which are super deadly to fish. So your attempt at healing fish would most likely be a one way ticket to the toilet bowl. It would take awhile for the DT to recover from what it has established as well. Which means you could not reintroduce the coral for awhile.

 

[Camille]

Plan C….

My looooong suffering other half has come up with another idea… Take all the rock, coral and anemones out of the DT and store them in the 500l and 250l (and 120l if necessary).

Then hypo treat the DT. Once the rock is out and water added it'll probably be around 1,100l.

I'm liking this idea best at the moment…

 

[Fishdad1]

That's what I was going to suggest. Personally I couldn't feel comfortable letting my DT have ich. Your sand bed will recolonize eventually.

I'm not a psychic but I think I see a quarantine tank in your future.

 

[Steve L]

Plan C….

My looooong suffering other half has come up with another idea… Take all the rock, coral and anemones out of the DT and store them in the 500l and 250l (and 120l if necessary).

Then hypo treat the DT. Once the rock is out and water added it'll probably be around 1,100l.

I'm liking this idea best at the moment…

Perhaps you missed the part about destroying all of the beneficial bacteria, most of which lives in your sand bed. If you're going to do that, it's just the same as starting from scratch with a new tank.

If you are able to catch all of the fish and can leave the tank fishless for 6 to 8 weeks, the ich will die off. Most of us have ich in our tanks all of the time, but the fish are healthy enough to fight it off.

 

[Camille]

Perhaps you missed the part about destroying all of the beneficial bacteria, most of which lives in your sand bed. If you're going to do that, it's just the same as starting from scratch with a new tank.

If you are able to catch all of the fish and can leave the tank fishless for 6 to 8 weeks, the ich will die off. Most of us have ich in our tanks all of the time, but the fish are healthy enough to fight it off.

I haven't read anywhere that hypo kills beneficial bacteria. There are a lot of people who keep tanks who reckon it does but I'd really like to know if this is actually true. The closet thing i've read is that 'it might'. There a few experts (scientists) that say it doesn't.

I have read a lot of information about ich in the last few days. It seems to be that the actual truth (from scientific studies) differ from what a lot of reefers think is the truth - me included - but not anymore.

Anyway my sand bed has only recently been put in and it's only a sprinkling (about 1cm).

I have a lot of fish - that's why I thought in the end it may be easier to take the corals/rock etc out and treat the fish in their original tank.

 

[Camille]

That's what I was going to suggest. Personally I couldn't feel comfortable letting my DT have ich. Your sand bed will recolonize eventually.

I'm not a psychic but I think I see a quarantine tank in your future.

Yep, yep, yep

 

[Talon33]

You are taking a big risk with a pricey set of livestock there. Sure it MAY work but there is a reason people don't treat for ich in the display tank. Best of luck

 

[Camille]

You are taking a big risk with a pricey set of livestock there. Sure it MAY work but there is a reason people don't treat for ich in the display tank. Best of luck

I am looking for the smallest amount of risk. The DT is the biggest tank I have. I thought that treating them in there would be better than putting them in a smaller tank/s.

 

[Talon33]

Yeah I understand having those fish and needing a big QT. I am just saying that you are flirting with destroying what your tank has matured to in the last 3 year and if you were to destroy the bacteria it could take another year for your tank to be able to handle all those fish. It may work or you may really do some damage. You can get a couple of 55 gallon used tanks pretty cheap and use those

 

[Talon33]

Also think about whether or not the tanks the coral or nem would go in if they could support the coral and especially the nem. They would have to stay in QT for 8-10 weeks anyways because how could you be sure that the ich cyst fallen off the fish didn't land on the coral?

 

[Fishdad1]

I have treated for ich many, many times with various chems and never killed the bacteria colony. Never used hypo but know many who have and they claim the same. I personally think allowing ich to live in a display is flirting with danger.

 

[Steve L]

I haven't read anywhere that hypo kills beneficial bacteria. There are a lot of people who keep tanks who reckon it does but I'd really like to know if this is actually true. The closet thing i've read is that 'it might'. There a few experts (scientists) that say it doesn't.

I have read a lot of information about ich in the last few days. It seems to be that the actual truth (from scientific studies) differ from what a lot of reefers think is the truth - me included - but not anymore.

Anyway my sand bed has only recently been put in and it's only a sprinkling (about 1cm).

I have a lot of fish - that's why I thought in the end it may be easier to take the corals/rock etc out and treat the fish in their original tank.

Well, it's your tank and you're free to do what you want with it. You came here and asked for our opinions and that's what you received.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[DaveK]

Getting back to the original post. I see two big issues here. First is the immediate issue of dealing with the ich problem. Second is the stocking level of the main tank.

Questions about sw ich come up all the time on this forum. The best advice I can give you is to read and understand the threads we have on the disease. Here is a link to a list of them - http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...ologist-advice-ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.html

Yes, it's going to be a massive job, but one way or another proper treatment means you remove all the fish and treat them in quarantine tanks. Yes, I know, that's exactly what you don't want to hear, but I believe it's the only good way to go. You are going to see a lot of bad advice posted about dealing with this disease. Personally, I trust the posts made by Lee on RS to be just about the best source of correct information, and yes, this includes the "famous name experts". My opinion on this is also backed up by personal experience, and over many years trying a lot of worthless SW ich cures.

All too often people try these worthless cures, and end up with a lot of losses, simply because they are looking for an easy way out. Don't fall into that trap.

Now once you get the ich problem fixed, you have another problem. Your tank is above normally recommended stocking levels. You have a large tank, but even so, you have way too many fish now, so you have no room for them to grow. On top of that you have 6 tangs, wish is asking a lot of the tank right there, and none of them are close to full growth. I know tangs are fantastic fish, but I would consider finding a different home for 2 or 3 of them. Most of the other fish are smaller, so they shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Regretfully, you found out after the fact that LFSs either have an almost total lack of knowledge of any advanced aquarium system or they lie outright. At least you know now.

I would likely do as your planning and treat with hyposalinity, except I'd remove the fish to a quarantine tank. Yes, I know it's an all day job.

Despite what some people will say, I found that the transition from normal strength SW to the levels required for treatment will slow the bacteria down a lot, even if it doesn't kill it all. However, that will reqrow in time. You do need to monitor ammonia and nitrite carefully and make water changes as needed. Yea, you'll become an expert on mixing new batches of SW.

Good luck, I know your in for quite a job.

 

[Camille]

You are taking a big risk with a pricey set of livestock there. Sure it MAY work but there is a reason people don't treat for ich in the display tank. Best of luck

Yes - it is a lot of money... Thanks for the luck!

Yeah I understand having those fish and needing a big QT. I am just saying that you are flirting with destroying what your tank has matured to in the last 3 year and if you were to destroy the bacteria it could take another year for your tank to be able to handle all those fish. It may work or you may really do some damage. You can get a couple of 55 gallon used tanks pretty cheap and use those

I think I would take all the rock out and put it in the other tanks. The sand bed is very new and shallow so I'm not too worried about that.

Also think about whether or not the tanks the coral or nem would go in if they could support the coral and especially the nem. They would have to stay in QT for 8-10 weeks anyways because how could you be sure that the ich cyst fallen off the fish didn't land on the coral?

All the corals and rock would go into a 500l and 250l tank so I think they would be fine. There are mainly softies and LPS. Both tanks have dosing pumps so the parameters should remain stable. They would remain fish less to eliminate the WS transferred over.

 

[Camille]

The best advice I can give you is to read and understand the threads we have on the disease. Here is a link to a list of them - http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...ologist-advice-ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.html

Thank you - I have read that article over and over. I'm quite amazed at what I thought was fact is really fiction!

Yes, it's going to be a massive job, but one way or another proper treatment means you remove all the fish and treat them in quarantine tanks. Yes, I know, that's exactly what you don't want to hear, but I believe it's the only good way to go. You are going to see a lot of bad advice posted about dealing with this disease. Personally, I trust the posts made by Lee on RS to be just about the best source of correct information, and yes, this includes the "famous name experts". My opinion on this is also backed up by personal experience, and over many years trying a lot of worthless SW ich cures.

All too often people try these worthless cures, and end up with a lot of losses, simply because they are looking for an easy way out. Don't fall into that trap.

Now once you get the ich problem fixed, you have another problem. Your tank is above normally recommended stocking levels. You have a large tank, but even so, you have way too many fish now, so you have no room for them to grow. On top of that you have 6 tangs, wish is asking a lot of the tank right there, and none of them are close to full growth. I know tangs are fantastic fish, but I would consider finding a different home for 2 or 3 of them. Most of the other fish are smaller, so they shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Regretfully, you found out after the fact that LFSs either have an almost total lack of knowledge of any advanced aquarium system or they lie outright. At least you know now.

I would likely do as your planning and treat with hyposalinity, except I'd remove the fish to a quarantine tank. Yes, I know it's an all day job.

Despite what some people will say, I found that the transition from normal strength SW to the levels required for treatment will slow the bacteria down a lot, even if it doesn't kill it all. However, that will reqrow in time. You do need to monitor ammonia and nitrite carefully and make water changes as needed. Yea, you'll become an expert on mixing new batches of SW.

Good luck, I know your in for quite a job.

Thank you for the inspiration!

I am now under no illusion that this will be long and hard. I'm OK with that.

As much as I hate to admit it I think you're probably right with the 'too many fish' thing.

I do have a Deltec skimmer rated for 2,000l in a heavily stocked tank (mine is 1,000l) and I purposely made the tank wide, deep (front to back) and shallow to allow for plenty of swimming room. I have not been able to get my NO3 above 2ppm. The PO4 sits between .10 and .40. I feed the fish heaps! I'm not using any NO3/PO4 removal - just live rock. Is it a future problem waiting to happen??

I shall start treatment in a few weeks. We are going away for a week soon and I don't want to start anything before then. At the moment everyone looks just fine - absolutely no dots on anyone. Gosh - this WS thing is so frustrating!

I have booked in the help of someone to get NSW for me. I have a 1,000l plastic container I can store the water in (and change the salinity as NZ water is 1.027). I worked out I'll probably use 4,500l over the treatment time. That's why I've opted for NSW instead of ASW (at NZ$200 a bucket!). I can put the storage container outside with a pump, by the window near the tank to make life a bit easier

This is scaring the bleep out of me. I want to treat the fish and tank to get rid of this WS but I don't want to loose any fish in the process. My son (9yrs old and on the ASD spectrum) loves the sailfin so much - he gives it 'cuddles' every morning. He would be devastated if we lost him.

Is anyone interested in updates/photos of the process or is this just another boring ich post???