Hyposalinity For Ich

[Kirblit]

Has anyone actually had this work before? I have done it twice, both times for 8 weeks and both times I don't even get the salinity all the way back up and the fish are showing signs (flashing and a couple spots, blenny gets it first)! I have checked the SG every day and it never got above 1.009 and was almost always 1.008. My DT has been fishless for almost 7 months because of it and I can't take it. I think I have given up on the hypo for good. I was doing it because it's much better on the fish but this is ridiculous. I guess I will be going with copper, any suggestions? I know that cupramine is the best to use and I know that it's harmful to the fish but I feel that if I'm ever going to beat it I have to try something else.

Any and all suggestions are welcome.

 

[sasquatch]

how are you testing salinity and what temp is the qt?

 

[DaveK]

I have to agree with sasquatch. How you test salinity can have a major effect. A refractometer is best for this. You do need to maintain the hyposalinity condition for at least 3 weeks, 4 is better.

If I were going to use copper, I'd use copper sulfate. It's a pain to use, because you need to test the copper level at least once a day, twice is better. Then you have to add enough copper to bring the level back up. It's very effective, but also very toxic. If you use any type of copper, use a quarantine tank, and do not use live rock or a sandbed in the tank.

 

[Kirblit]

how are you testing salinity and what temp is the qt?

Refractometer calibrated with pinpoint solution, 78-79 degrees steady

 

[Kirblit]

I have to agree with sasquatch. How you test salinity can have a major effect. A refractometer is best for this. You do need to maintain the hyposalinity condition for at least 3 weeks, 4 is better.

If I were going to use copper, I'd use copper sulfate. It's a pain to use, because you need to test the copper level at least once a day, twice is better. Then you have to add enough copper to bring the level back up. It's very effective, but also very toxic. If you use any type of copper, use a quarantine tank, and do not use live rock or a sandbed in the tank.

I have maintained hypo for 8 weeks at a time, twice

 

[Kirblit]

Is there any other parasite that could present itself as ich and would perhaps be slowed down by the hypo? It seems the flashing stops when they are at a low SG but when it returns to about 1.012 the flashing starts again, usually with my blenny first.

 

[Woodstock]

There are many different types of parasites and hyposalinity only treats one... ICH, and some ICH strains have become resistent
I chose not to go that route when treating my fishes.
Please read this awesome post by Leebca: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...nts/23131-hyposalinity-treatment-process.html

I recently chose to use Cupramine as a treatment for my fish's ICH. It worked well but be sure to leave the tank fallow for at least 8 weeks and do not add anything 'wet' (like I did and had to start over ) without QT'ing. Anything wet (coral, snail, sand, rock, fish, etc. ) can and may be harboring parasite cysts (or a number of other ailments) and must be QT in an fish free(you don't want the parasites to complete their lifecycle! ) tank.

Per Leebca, do not use hypo and copper at the same time.

 

[leebca]

I know of no hyposalinity resistant Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) though rumors keep coming out of Asia and spread by people who have had apparently no success with the treatment. It is also a favorite of copper medication manufacturers to claim that hyposalinity doesn't work.

I have been able to account for failures due to one or more matters, from a set of common errors or omissions:
1. It isn't the length of time the fish is kept in hyposalinity -- it is the length of time the fish is kept in hyposalinity AFTER the last spot is seen. MANY times the hobbyists has failed to see and note the true date of when the last spot was seen. Some miss seeing the last spot.
2. The hyposalinity was not measured properly and maintained.
3. Quite often when it isn't working it is because the disease isn't Marine Ich. Improper diagnosis is a large error in such situations.
4. The hobbyist has unwittingly contaminated the QT by the tiniest of splashes; using an old net or other piece of infected equipment; introducing infected water for water changes; etc.
5. The hobbyist hasn't used the correct sized QT for the treatment. In this treatment the QT should not be too large compared to the size of the fish.
6. All other things must be kept 'normal.' Such controls are temperature and pH and water quality.
7. The fish isn't being nourished well enough to fully recover. A rare situation, but the fish must be properly nourished to help eradicate the Marine Ich parasite (in some very rare instances).

 

[Woodstock]

More excellent information. Thank you Lee!

 

[Kirblit]

I know of no hyposalinity resistant Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) though rumors keep coming out of Asia and spread by people who have had apparently no success with the treatment. It is also a favorite of copper medication manufacturers to claim that hyposalinity doesn't work.

I have been able to account for failures due to one or more matters, from a set of common errors or omissions:
1. It isn't the length of time the fish is kept in hyposalinity -- it is the length of time the fish is kept in hyposalinity AFTER the last spot is seen. MANY times the hobbyists has failed to see and note the true date of when the last spot was seen. Some miss seeing the last spot.
2. The hyposalinity was not measured properly and maintained.
3. Quite often when it isn't working it is because the disease isn't Marine Ich. Improper diagnosis is a large error in such situations.
4. The hobbyist has unwittingly contaminated the QT by the tiniest of splashes; using an old net or other piece of infected equipment; introducing infected water for water changes; etc.
5. The hobbyist hasn't used the correct sized QT for the treatment. In this treatment the QT should not be too large compared to the size of the fish.
6. All other things must be kept 'normal.' Such controls are temperature and pH and water quality.
7. The fish isn't being nourished well enough to fully recover. A rare situation, but the fish must be properly nourished to help eradicate the Marine Ich parasite (in some very rare instances).

1 Wouldn't 8 weeks be long enough at 1.008? Even if it took 4 weeks for the last spot to come off the fish (this is a long time isn't it?) then it would still have 4 solid weeks that it would be ich free. I noticed that after about 4 days the fish completely stopped flashing and showed no spots that I could see, but that doesn't mean that they weren't in their gills.

2 I used a refractometer calibrated with pinpoint salinity solution.

3 What other parasite could it be. I noticed in Sep 2007. when I first took the fish out to QT that they would: flash on rocks, had white spots that were about the size of sugar, and the spots would become less about every 5 days or so and then they would come back worse. This is why I thought it was ich and put them into the QT. Is there something else it could be?

4 I was very careful about this in every way. Every time I did a water change I used the same bucket and siphon that were brand new and never got used on any other tank ever. I always washed my hands after putting them in the water of my main DT.

5 I used a 55 gallon tank because I had no other choice. I had to put 18 inches of fish into an uncycled tank the first time, two of which are tangs so they needed some swimming room. I used a simple HOB Aquaclear 110 with foam filters in it for filtration. I had to do daily water changes for a month the first time I tried the hypo to keep it from hurting the fish, and I didn't lose any of them. I thought this may of had something to do with the reason that it didn't work the first time so I decided to try it again. This time the tank had been fully established for quite some time so I only did 2 10% changes a week. I made sure the makeup water was the same temp and salinity that the tank was every time I performed a water change. I always tested the salinity daily and added needed fresh RO to a line that I filled the water to every time I did a change so I had a reference point of evaporation.

6 Temp was always 78-79 degrees and Ph was usually about 8-8.1 and I checked it daily as well. I needed to buffer it a lot, usually I buffered any top off water so that the PH would stay the same at all times. Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, and even Nitrate never exceed 5 do to all of the water changes that I performed. I kept the tank very clean, I even started to slip with my DT because of all the time I was spending with the QT.

7 I always fed them very well because I knew it was important. I fed 1/2 sheet of Nori every day, and my homemade mush (mystis shrimp, uncooked shrimp, formula 1 & 2, formula brine, formula reef diet, nori, garlic, Selcon, Vitachem, muscles, Cyclopeez, formula 1 pellet, Cuddlefish, and scallops) usually once a day, sometimes two.


I'm very anal about my fish tanks and I take every detail into account when I can to make things better. My big belief is that the fish didn't choose to be here, we brought them here. I would like to make their lives as good as I can and have them live a long time and it's frustrating because I'm not providing that right now. I don't think of fish as money like some, I think of them as another life and more like a family member. I just want to make my fish healthy so that I can add them back into the DT that has been fallow for almost 7 months now so they can be happy again.

What other parasites might I be dealing with here, and would the Cupramine be effective on them? I don't think I can do another hypo treatment with my fish because I just don't think it will work so I will try the Cupramine and see if that works once I get them back up to full salinity (they are at about 1.015 right now).

 

[leebca]

Kirby,

I understand and more than appreciate your frustration. You are absolutely convinced you have performed the treatment process correctly, yet the fishes are not cured. I can assure you that one of my listed most frequent things that are omitted or that goes wrong will apply here.

1. No. It MUST be 4 weeks past the actual observed disappearance of any visual Marine Ich (MI) Trophont. I have known some treatments to require three months. What needs to be understood by hobbyists is how the parasite, Cryptocaryon irritans succumbs to this treatment. Dr. Burgess put it best – the parasite is stressed into submission and then death. It is stressed to death. How long does it take to kill a marine life form through stress? It is never a clear cut time frame. That is, there is no ‘for sure’ answer. In the case of captive marine fishes, it is a combination of different factors, some of which are water conditions, fish health, and the health of the parasite.

2. Good. Calibrated and used properly it is the correct tool. What is it’s reading on dble distilled water, after the salinity calibration?

3. Unfortunately we only know most about how hyposalinity affects MI. MI is just one of the many protozoans that attack fish and have similar visuals. Remember, the human eye only sees a glimpse of the whole process – only the Trophont stage is visual of MI, which has characteristics of other pathogens. Fortunately those other pathogens are less common. The list is too long for me to be able to exhaust it here. The only way to be sure is to see it under a microscope and then to cultivate it. Even under a microscope, seeing is not proper identification.

4. Putting hands into an aquarium is wrong. This is a good chance for a problem to you and/or the fish. There are human diseases that transfer to fish and fish diseases that transfer to humans. Not a good technique. This is also a great opportunity for the transfer of diseases to your QT. I’d say so far in this list, this is your greatest risk and exposure to having infected water getting to the QT. You can’t see them all, but tiny droplets fall everywhere on your arms, face, clothing, etc. It would take a doctor’s scrub up to convince me this was not a potential source of cross-contamination. I would stop getting wet and if you must put your hands into the water, use long (arm length) disposable gloves.

5. Treatment is best performed in a small tank, one fish at a time. Some I control use several small tanks. The volume of the water has importance in helping the hobbyists see any remaining parasites in their Trophont stage. That is, with less volume, the greater the likelihood that, if the parasite is present, it will let itself be known through a visual Trophont. With multiple fish in a larger aquarium you should still be okay. But it will be challenging to: closely inspect each fish, each day for the final visual confirmation that there are absolutely no visual Trophonts; and continually thoroughly inspect each fish, each day to verify the ‘disappearance date’ was/is accurate. Challenging, but not impossible.

6. Sounds good. Not sure what you mean by “buffered.” What were you adding to do this?

7. Twice a day is the minimum, thrice a day preferred, 4-6 times per day is optimum. The food you listed looks excellent to me. Only not frequent enough. This should not be a factor for your situation.

I think your perspective on your marine fish is getting you towards being an aquarist rather than a hobbyist. Very admirable. I think of my fish not as a commodity, but as a family member, too.

I would proceed as you are thinking. Slowly raise the salinity back to normal and perform the Cupramine treatment. This time, no hand dipping!!! Hold the copper steady and use a copper test kit that will show you 0.3 to 0.4 ppm copper. Follow the recommendations on the medicine and raise the copper concentration over 48 hours. Start the 2-week time AFTER the copper is in the proper concentration range.

The copper treatment is known to kill off many of the other ciliated protozoans that simulate a visual stage like the MI Trophont.

Good luck!

 

[Kirblit]

Kirby,

I understand and more than appreciate your frustration. You are absolutely convinced you have performed the treatment process correctly, yet the fishes are not cured. I can assure you that one of my listed most frequent things that are omitted or that goes wrong will apply here.

1. No. It MUST be 4 weeks past the actual observed disappearance of any visual Marine Ich (MI) Trophont. I have known some treatments to require three months. What needs to be understood by hobbyists is how the parasite, Cryptocaryon irritans succumbs to this treatment. Dr. Burgess put it best – the parasite is stressed into submission and then death. It is stressed to death. How long does it take to kill a marine life form through stress? It is never a clear cut time frame. That is, there is no ‘for sure’ answer. In the case of captive marine fishes, it is a combination of different factors, some of which are water conditions, fish health, and the health of the parasite.

2. Good. Calibrated and used properly it is the correct tool. What is it’s reading on dble distilled water, after the salinity calibration?

3. Unfortunately we only know most about how hyposalinity affects MI. MI is just one of the many protozoans that attack fish and have similar visuals. Remember, the human eye only sees a glimpse of the whole process – only the Trophont stage is visual of MI, which has characteristics of other pathogens. Fortunately those other pathogens are less common. The list is too long for me to be able to exhaust it here. The only way to be sure is to see it under a microscope and then to cultivate it. Even under a microscope, seeing is not proper identification.

4. Putting hands into an aquarium is wrong. This is a good chance for a problem to you and/or the fish. There are human diseases that transfer to fish and fish diseases that transfer to humans. Not a good technique. This is also a great opportunity for the transfer of diseases to your QT. I’d say so far in this list, this is your greatest risk and exposure to having infected water getting to the QT. You can’t see them all, but tiny droplets fall everywhere on your arms, face, clothing, etc. It would take a doctor’s scrub up to convince me this was not a potential source of cross-contamination. I would stop getting wet and if you must put your hands into the water, use long (arm length) disposable gloves.

5. Treatment is best performed in a small tank, one fish at a time. Some I control use several small tanks. The volume of the water has importance in helping the hobbyists see any remaining parasites in their Trophont stage. That is, with less volume, the greater the likelihood that, if the parasite is present, it will let itself be known through a visual Trophont. With multiple fish in a larger aquarium you should still be okay. But it will be challenging to: closely inspect each fish, each day for the final visual confirmation that there are absolutely no visual Trophonts; and continually thoroughly inspect each fish, each day to verify the ‘disappearance date’ was/is accurate. Challenging, but not impossible.

6. Sounds good. Not sure what you mean by “buffered.” What were you adding to do this?

7. Twice a day is the minimum, thrice a day preferred, 4-6 times per day is optimum. The food you listed looks excellent to me. Only not frequent enough. This should not be a factor for your situation.

I think your perspective on your marine fish is getting you towards being an aquarist rather than a hobbyist. Very admirable. I think of my fish not as a commodity, but as a family member, too.

I would proceed as you are thinking. Slowly raise the salinity back to normal and perform the Cupramine treatment. This time, no hand dipping!!! Hold the copper steady and use a copper test kit that will show you 0.3 to 0.4 ppm copper. Follow the recommendations on the medicine and raise the copper concentration over 48 hours. Start the 2-week time AFTER the copper is in the proper concentration range.

The copper treatment is known to kill off many of the other ciliated protozoans that simulate a visual stage like the MI Trophont.

Good luck!

Let me start out by saying thank you for all your help, I really appreciate it. It's very had to ask a lot of people about ich because they all believe that it's always in their tank and that it can't ever be overcome, or that it will just magically go away, so on and so forth, I refuse to believe this.

1 Makes good sense, I know that it disrupts their reproductive cycle and kills them through osmotic shock.

2 It reads 0, I know it shouldn't but I have heard a lot of people that have this same occurance, I think Woodstock did as well if I remember correctly. I know it should be below the line in theory because most refractometers are not calibrated to sea water and rather to table salt.

3 Good info, don't think I will be taking any scrapings though.

4 I know and I will not anymore, I will go by a ranch supply store and get some shoulder length gloves. Sometimes I guess I just forget how infective everything in the water can be.

6 I mean "buffered" as that every time I added top off water to the tank I added some PH buffer to the top off water so that it would keep the PH up in the tank.

7 Tried to limit food intake somewhat because as we know tangs poop A LOT and I know that in the hypo they don't need as much food as normal because their bodies aren't working as hard to eliminate all the extra salt.

I plan on using the Seachem test kit, will this suffice? So I want to keep the copper level at .3 - .4 throughout the treatment? I thought that it was supposed to be around .5 but not to exceed .6?

One more question, I will have to do 2 water changes a week on the QT (tangs poop too much) should I just add the amount of Cupramine needed to the change water, then test the change water, and then add it to the tank?

Thank you again for your help

Kirby

 

[Kirblit]

One other thing that I would like to ask. I plan on getting a Mandarin in the near future. I know that they are resistant to most parasites due to their thicker mucus layer, but I still worry. I know that I cannot really QT them because of their natural food source can't really be provided for them. I also know that they don't do copper. So do I just have to chance it and put them in the DT?

 

[leebca]

You're asking good questions!

I know MI can be kept out of our home marine systems. I've had MI-free tanks since early 1970's.

I understand and agree about the food quantity and frequency, only the fish should not be withheld food during this stressful time. Feed more: Let them poop. It's up to you to keep up with it. :smack:

Best not to use a buffering solution to control pH. Best to adjust pH 'manually.' The buffer solution counts upon a 'regular' or normal salinity and it adds additional chemicals for that reason. You really just want to add a stable, strong, base to raise and hold the pH in range.

Most will agree that the Seachem Test Kit for Copper is hard to use and difficult to read. I would suggest the Salifert Copper Test Kit. One of my very few product recommendations.

Either adding 'medicated water' or medicating after the water change is acceptable. But to me it always made better sense to medicate the new water coming in so the parasites can't possibly get any kind of 'break.'

Cupramine has been found effective over a surprising decent range and at low concentrations. I'm unsure of all the fish you have in there, so I was conservative. 0.3 to 0.4 is effective. 0.6 ppm is the max and near lethal to some marine fishes. At no time should the test result indicate a color above 0.5 ppm.

Your water changes may have to be much more frequently. Often any established biological filter bacteria go into a metabolic stasis when faced with the copper. Sometimes they don't. With the increased feedings I'm sure you'll be changing the water more than twice a week.

 

[Kirblit]

I will def. plan to feed more during the copper, I know that will be more stressful.

I never even thought of that about the buffer, your right, the solution is made to make an ionic residual like seawater, never even considered that. Baked baking soda it is then. I have never used it before so I don't know proper calculations as to what amount will increase (X) amount of water volume to (X) PH. Will you please refresh my memory as to what the proper procedure is for "baking" it.

I think that I read in one of your post's that the Salifert kit goes from .5 to 1.0 and then 1.0 up at a time after that. What is the best way to make it accurate enough to use at the lower levels?


My fish include: Two Amphiprion Occelaris, one Klauchwitz Blenny, one Kole Tang, and a Clown Tang. I know the blenny will prob be most suseptible to the copper. What level would you suggest?

Should I only treat for 14 days or is 21 days better to make sure? I surely don't want to subject them to more than one treatment, but I don't want it to last too long either.

 

[leebca]

Not knowing the quantity nor frequency of the pH buffer additions, there is a possibility that its use gave the MI parasite some relief from the osmotic stress it was supposed to be under.

I’m not trying to be negative or come across as aloof, but the directions I’ve given for a hyposalinity treatment, when they are followed, without additions, deletions or ‘inventions of deviations,’ does work.

From the post on hyposalinity treatment:
pH control
pH is hard to control in a hyposaline solution because at this dilution, the buffer ability of the diluted saltwater is not good. Be prepared for this.

Make pH adjustments with pure baking soda (e.g., Arm & Hammer) you find in the grocery store, or better yet is sodium carbonate. Sodium carbonate can be made in the home oven. Take a pound of pure baking soda and spread it out evenly on a large cookie sheet. Put into a preheated oven to 350F. Bake it for 30 minutes. Take the sheet out of the oven, let cool to warm and put into an air-tight, clean container for use. Now the baking soda has been turned into sodium carbonate, a more potent pH + additive.
------------
I’d stay with the 0.3 to 0.4 ppm range of copper for a Cupramine treatment. I would follow the medication instructions – 2 weeks after the water is in the right range.

The Salifert kit jumps from 0.5 to 1.0 and higher, but it shows lower numbers (below 0.5) accurately. For readings between 0.5 and 1.0: If the water is diluted with saltwater that has no medication you can get a confirming result. However the shade of blue you seek is just below (never at or above) the 0.5 color card indication, yet there are still readings on the card below 0.5 ppm.

Hope the above helps!

 

[Kirblit]

Thank you so much for all of your help, I hope that I will finally kick this! I will keep you posted as to how everything is going.

One other thing that I would like to ask. I plan on getting a Mandarin in the near future. I know that they are resistant to most parasites due to their thicker mucus layer, but I still worry. I know that I cannot really QT them because of their natural food source can't really be provided for them. I also know that they don't do copper. So do I just have to chance it and put them in the DT?

 

[leebca]

All marine fishes can be accommodated through a quarantine process. Never think you don’t have this option. In the case of the Mandarin, you not only want to quarantine for disease, you want to train the fish to eat prepared foods.

Pod eaters can be kept by those aquarists who are prepared to properly provide their needs. NEVER assume the marine system has ‘enough pods’ to keep one alive. Our marine systems may have numbers of pods, but nowhere near the diversity found in the wild. The pod eaters usually will slowly die of poor nutrition over a much shorter time then they could have lived if fed properly.

I have covered how to train one to eat prepared foods and expanded on the above points in this post: Pod Eaters