Hospital Tank/Ich Rx
- Thread starter scuba22
- Start date
Woodstock said:No ruffled feathers here
I'm happy to see a metronidazole follower~~
Well, being in the medical field I'm really not a big "follower" of Flagyl as pertaining to humans. Studies have shown that large bolus dosages in laboratory rats can lead to liver dysfunction...Hmmm, I don't keep rats anyway.....But as far as Ich on my fish...I'm sold!
BoomerD
Well-Known Member
IME, there are no TRULY reef-safe medications for ich, (or anyghing else for that matter) that are actually effective against the problems we treat for. Antibiotics will kill or severely impact the biological bacteria that does our filtration, and could cause ammonia/nitrate spikes. NONE should be used in the main tank, but instead, do ALL treatments in a quarantine/hospital tank. Leave the main tank fallow for 4 to 6 weeks, to allow time for the different phases of the parasite to die off. Hyposalinity CAN be an effective treatment, IF done properly, and you allow several days to bring the fish to the lowered salinity, and back. NOT recommended for ANY inverts however...
BoomerD said:
I would have to agree that nothing added as a medication is "truly" reef safe. However, I personally have not had any problems the two times I used this product. Metronidazole was just my choice, not only antibiotics will kill Tomites, pretty much anything deemed useful for this purpose would...i.e, copper, etc.
Salinity surrounding natural reefs can fluctuate as much as 0.010 sg with each storm and/or tide surge, so IMO I don't think that hyposalinity is a huge factor with inverts. However the operative word here is "fluctuate", so a sustained reduction and/or increase could/would in fact be detrimental.
As stated earlier, Temp and hyposalinity is the key. So if one uses a QT (and I feel everyone should) This is where the Tx should take place, (temp, salinity reduction, and "medications"). If there are any free swimming Tomites in the main tank (assuming there isn't a potential host in the tank). In 1-3 days they'll die. Keep in mind, the "Cryptocaryon" prasite will not go dormant as does the "Ichthyophthirius" parasite (its' freshwater counterpart)
So I'm not sure if I understand why you suggest leaving the tank fallow for 4-6 weeks? As Cryptocaryon Tomites cannot complete their life cycle without a host, and will only live up to 3 days or so without one.
Please elaborate, as I am always open to a better way to accomplish things.
Thanks
BoomerD
Well-Known Member
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
"The lifecycle of the parasite is interesting and important to understand when evaluating a treatment. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish. After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again (Colorni & Burgess, 1997)."
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
"The lifecycle of the parasite is interesting and important to understand when evaluating a treatment. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish. After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again (Colorni & Burgess, 1997)."
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
FWIW for you to be effective at eradicating the parasite your SG would have to be 1.009 for a minimum of 3-6 weeks 1.017 will not be low enough.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm
scuba22
Member
UPDATE:
After a 10d rx regime with garlic and Flagyl, my Regal Tang is looking MUCH better. I indeed did raise the temp and lower salinity in slight amounts to assist with the tomont stage. All fish and inverts are active and eating well, water quality is great. (I use the UV sterilizer with the med) and am doing 20-25% water changes when quality dips and nitrates increase.
That being said, I agree with FFMEDIC 100%.
I also am in medicine and indeed, when a human has a flaggellate infection,
flagyl is the drug of choice. I does kill protozoa. And, by personal experience appears to be reef safe - although I did have on featherduster stress out and drop his head.
Excellent discussion thread, lots of great information presented.
Thanks so much everyone! :bigbounce
After a 10d rx regime with garlic and Flagyl, my Regal Tang is looking MUCH better. I indeed did raise the temp and lower salinity in slight amounts to assist with the tomont stage. All fish and inverts are active and eating well, water quality is great. (I use the UV sterilizer with the med) and am doing 20-25% water changes when quality dips and nitrates increase.
That being said, I agree with FFMEDIC 100%.
I also am in medicine and indeed, when a human has a flaggellate infection,
flagyl is the drug of choice. I does kill protozoa. And, by personal experience appears to be reef safe - although I did have on featherduster stress out and drop his head.
Excellent discussion thread, lots of great information presented.
Thanks so much everyone! :bigbounce
Jerome
Member
I knew cellular and molecular biology and mircobiology in college weren't a complete waste of time and there moment has come! ROFL
Antibiotics will do nothing to Ich becuase they are eukaryotic organisms:
They are ciliates (ciliated protozoa) are single-celled eukaryotic organisnss
which describes many such organism but also includes ich which is descriptive of organisms with cells having a distinct nucleus with DNA.
Anitbiotics only effect organism reproducing using RNA. Which is why you can take an antibiotic and your cells can continus to reproduce (you have DNA) and the Strep throat (streptococcal pharyngitis) which is a baterial infection can no longer reproduce. Antibiotics don't actually kill anything they simple block the ability of the organism with RNA to reproduce, which gives your white blood cell a chance to catch up. And the organism usually has a very short life cycle meaning they can't replace themselves.
That's why if you get a fungal infection your out of luck as they say. That's why the most dangerous diseases like Legioniares Disease are DNA reproducing organism. It's fungal (a DNA organism) so no antibiotics, your body fights it off or you die. Alkylating agents can stop the reproduction of DNA based cells and are sometimes used (especially for chemotheropy) but BLOCK all cells in your body from reproducing. You can only live for a week or so without your cells reproducing, but in the right situation this can save your life.
So my point being if you want to know if you can treat an organism with antibiotics just find you what kind of repruction it uses DNA or RNA.
Antibiotics will do nothing to Ich becuase they are eukaryotic organisms:
They are ciliates (ciliated protozoa) are single-celled eukaryotic organisnss
which describes many such organism but also includes ich which is descriptive of organisms with cells having a distinct nucleus with DNA.
Anitbiotics only effect organism reproducing using RNA. Which is why you can take an antibiotic and your cells can continus to reproduce (you have DNA) and the Strep throat (streptococcal pharyngitis) which is a baterial infection can no longer reproduce. Antibiotics don't actually kill anything they simple block the ability of the organism with RNA to reproduce, which gives your white blood cell a chance to catch up. And the organism usually has a very short life cycle meaning they can't replace themselves.
That's why if you get a fungal infection your out of luck as they say. That's why the most dangerous diseases like Legioniares Disease are DNA reproducing organism. It's fungal (a DNA organism) so no antibiotics, your body fights it off or you die. Alkylating agents can stop the reproduction of DNA based cells and are sometimes used (especially for chemotheropy) but BLOCK all cells in your body from reproducing. You can only live for a week or so without your cells reproducing, but in the right situation this can save your life.
So my point being if you want to know if you can treat an organism with antibiotics just find you what kind of repruction it uses DNA or RNA.
This is an extremely interesting thread...There is an lfs near me that is known for not keeping very healthy fish (not really sure how they stay in business)....I think for my satisfaction... And I'm sure I'll be frowned on by some for doing this. But, I am going to purchase 2-4 fish (that appear to have ick), place them in two seperate tanks. One being treated solely via hyposalinity (1.017sg) and elevated temperature (82-84)....The other with the same tx plus the addition of Metronidazole. Both tanks will be treated for 7-10 days, after which the water will be carbon filtered and returned to normal parameters. The fish will be monitored for the next month to see if there is a reinfestation.
Any other suggestions before I begin this little experiment?
Any other suggestions before I begin this little experiment?
cheeks69 said:
Hmmm?....Maybe a third experimental tank with hyposalinity only....However I don't think that very many (if any) of our fish suitable for reef tanks could withstand a SG of less than 1.017, much less 1.009 as I believe this is approaching sub-brackish conditions, as pertaining to aquaria.
Note: ...This experiment is not to disprove anyones methods or theories (except mine). If the hyposalinity and/or the hyposalinity and temperature elevation do as good of a job at relieving the parasites from the fish and their environment, as the method that I've used in the past...Then I will be convinced that the Metronidazole does not in fact play a part in erradicating the parasite.
TERRY BARTELME
I have used the hypo method and dropped the SG slowly to 1.009 to treat a Paracanthurus hepatus with no ill effects at all. At least one of the public aquariums I believe in Oklahoma uses this method to treat all of their new additions with great success.
I have used the hypo method and dropped the SG slowly to 1.009 to treat a Paracanthurus hepatus with no ill effects at all. At least one of the public aquariums I believe in Oklahoma uses this method to treat all of their new additions with great success.
FFMedic said:
No I have never treated my display tanks. No invert can survive these conditions but fish can adapt very well but it's very important to this slowly over several days so the fish can adjust and if you do use this method then a refractometer would be invaluable.
scuba22
Member
UPDATE #2
a full 5 weeks into treatment with flagyl and subsequently no Ich (another...iazole med) and UV sterilization. My Tang is beautiful again. no one else got sick from the ICH or the med and I have used the UV/waterchanges and carbon intermittently to keep water quality.
I plan to keep my eyes peeled tho!
thanks for a great discussion!
a full 5 weeks into treatment with flagyl and subsequently no Ich (another...iazole med) and UV sterilization. My Tang is beautiful again. no one else got sick from the ICH or the med and I have used the UV/waterchanges and carbon intermittently to keep water quality.
I plan to keep my eyes peeled tho!
thanks for a great discussion!