HELP! Guidance Needed on this journey.

NewSaltWaterGuy

NewSaltWaterGuy

Member
Guidance Is needed from you professional reefers if you will.
I am planning once I move into my house that is currently being built, to setup a 13.5 gallon Fluval Sea Evo marine aquarium. I do plan this as a "reef' or a tank with corals as that's what im mainly doing this setup for, I am just walking into this with my hands over my eyes so I came here after reading numerous articles on filtration, what a protein skimmer even is, and other things such as coral care. Now I have nothing in mind as far as what will be in the tank, because as stated I want to know what im doing.
I come from a heavy aquascaping freshwater background which you can see a photo in my "Hello" thread I made, so I know that cycling also accurse obviously in salt water tanks. Now I will list some of my questions I have:
1: in the freshwater hobby we do not use Charcoal as a media in our filter, we do however use bio balls and such. This comes in with a built in filter; with charcoal, what would I replace that with if you all don't use it? And in my specific freshwater setups I don't clean the filters, (well certain parts), I imagine in SW you do? if so what parts or the whole thing? even the sponge and all?

2: Water changes. Now when you do a WC in SW reefs I imagine the salt also comes out of the water with the water into a/the bucket. How do you know how much salt to add back in?

3: Do I need a protein skimmer for such a small tank? if so what is recommended because it seems I cannot find a brand that says it will hundred percent work with this fluval setup.

4: (question that can be answered whenever as im not near ready for this) what types of corals like hard alkaline water? with a ph of about 7.8

5: What are good stocking for a small 13.5 gallon tank with this? Clean up crew ideas and coral ideas? I would like corals that give more of a natural vibe rather than ones that are all neon like colors and such...

6: How thick of a layer of sand? specific type of sand?

7: Live rock; How does this even work? Do you add it during a cycle? like before the tank is even filled so you can do your hardscaping with it obviously or is there another way it must be done?

8: is the cycle of SW like FW or are there any other different things I should know about?
 
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DaveK

Well-Known Member
Your asking a whole lot of very basic questions. You really need to do a few things first before you consider any equipment purchases. Most critical is to figure out what you want to keep, and how large a system you are going to need to maintain the livestock. The next critical issue is to acquire the basic knowledge needed to setup and maintain the system.

SW systems work quite a bit different from FW systems. There are quite a few areas where doing what you did in FW results in a tank of very dead livestock in a SW system. I could answer your questions, but if I did do this now, it's going to leave gaping holes in your knowledge, and you'd most likely make a major mistake.

In effect, you need enough basic knowledge so you know the right questions to ask.

Here is something I have posted before, but it's worth repeating -

DaveK's Standard Lecture #1 – Advice for people new to the hobby

The very first thing you want to do, before you spend any money on equipment or livestock, is get yourself a few good books on state of the art reef systems. Then read and study them, so you have some idea about what your are doing.

Here are two to start with -

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner
The New Marine Aquarium by Michael Paleta <---This book has an especially good section on fish suited to someone starting off in the hobby.

A note on the books. You can often find used copies at much lower prices at places like Amazon. In most cases these are going to be as good as new copies, especially when your first learning.

This is information that you can not easily obtain from the net. While it's out there, it's all over the place, and there is a massive volume of information. There is also a lot of bad information out there.

Once you get that done, plan or rethink your system. What do you want to keep? Do you have the necessary equipment? Do you have the knowledge to keep the livestock you want? Do you have the time to dedicate to keeping a system and it's livestock?

Many salt water fish, corals and inverts often have very specific requirements. Some are extremely difficult to keep alive, even if you do everything right. Before you get anything, research it, and be sure it will work out in your system.

Lastly, you will find that most LFS people are clueless when it comes to SW systems. Verify their advice, until they prove otherwise.
 
Sharkbite73

Sharkbite73

New Member
Hey
I'm also starting out. I'd recommend Youtube but stick to one channel. There is a 52 BRS build it up from the base. LOADS of info. For aquascaping look at pintrest.
 
NewSaltWaterGuy

NewSaltWaterGuy

Member
DaveK said:
what you want to keep, and how large a system you are going to need to maintain the livestock
Click to expand...
Reason I did not get to this yet, or did not want to is because I wanted to know how to specifically cycle a SW tank and the differences of this from fw, basic knowledge in a nutshell.
I previously stated the system is a small nano Fluval sea evo, a 13.5 gallon tank. one of the first things I stated.

DaveK said:
The next critical issue is to acquire the basic knowledge needed to setup and maintain the system.
Click to expand...
Questions I asked, I couldn't find on numerous articles I have read.

DaveK said:
Many salt water fish, corals and inverts often have very specific requirements. Some are extremely difficult to keep alive, even if you do everything right. Before you get anything, research it, and be sure it will work out in your system.
Click to expand...

This is, pretty basic knowledge. I have been doing FW for years, not that that increases my knowledge or is supposed to. The reason I came here is to ask my questions that I could not find anywhere else. Not going to a LFS and asking them for information is basic knowledge and common sense as they just want to sell you something. Im not just beginning on common sense....
Thank you for the book recommendations I will be sure to check them out.
 
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DaveK

Well-Known Member
NewSaltWaterGuy said:
Reason I did not get to this yet, or did not want to is because I wanted to know how to specifically cycle a SW tank and the differences of this from fw, basic knowledge in a nutshell.
I previously stated the system is a small nano Fluval sea evo, a 13.5 gallon tank. one of the first things I stated.


Questions I asked, I couldn't find on numerous articles I have read.



This is, pretty basic knowledge. I have been doing FW for years, not that that increases my knowledge or is supposed to. The reason I came here is to ask my questions that I could not find anywhere else. Not going to a LFS and asking them for information is basic knowledge and common sense as they just want to sell you something. Im not just beginning on common sense....
Thank you for the book recommendations I will be sure to check them out.
Click to expand...

Understand that there really is no such thing as "... the differences of this from fw, basic knowledge in a nutshell. " I wish things were so cut and dry. They are not. SW is a very different mindset and approach. Here are a couple of examples. In lighting, what a FW planted tank would consider very high light, a SW reef would consider dim and limited. In a SW reef you want to limit nitrates and phosphates as much as you can. You usually make water changes and so on to reduce these. FW planted tanks will need a certain amount of nitrates and phosphates and so on for the plants, so you usually need to add these. I could go on about differences for pages, but you get the idea. What you'll find out is that the goals are similar in that you want to keep a healthy great looking tank, but the approaches are usually very different on how you get there. You find that FW knowledge will help a lot in some areas, such as picking healthy fish and noticing if there is an obvious problem.

On using a 13.5 gal Fluval Sea EVO as a first tank. It is possible to do. Done correctly it could even be a real gem. However, it's usually not a good choice for a first SW tank. It's just too small. By the time you add live rock and a minimum amount of sand, your down to about 10 gal of water. Typically for SW you want about 5 gal of water per 1 inch of fish. Are you really going to be content with one or two fish? Small tanks also tend to be less stable. Many corals require very stable water conditions, and this is a lot harder to do in a small tank. If you have already bought the Fluval, then your rather stuck, but if you have some choice in the matter, go for something larger, in something like the 30 - 40 gal range.

"... Questions I asked, I couldn't find on numerous articles I have read. ..." As I mentioned, it's out there but can be complex to find. That's why I recommend the books over the net for the initial knowledge.

As for the LFSs, keep in mind that I wrote the "standard lecture" part for someone new to SW that maybe only has some experience with FW. If you have been around awhile you'll know some of this information.
 
NewSaltWaterGuy

NewSaltWaterGuy

Member
DaveK said:
Are you really going to be content with one or two fish? Small tanks also tend to be less stable. Many corals require very stable water conditions, and this is a lot harder to do in a small tank.
Click to expand...
( no I haven't bought this, as said this isn't something im rushing... its a month to month project..) I don't even know if im going to get a fish, im in it for the corals. Yes I have read they are very delicate, I think most know that, some are hardier than others (as usual). I am prepared for the small tank and the work that comes along with that, reason im doing this, this small.
Also thanks again for the reply's
 
NewSaltWaterGuy

NewSaltWaterGuy

Member
but in terms of filter media which is my Main concern as of right now, I am getting the feel that you use the same old same old bio sponge and bio balls?
 
NewSaltWaterGuy

NewSaltWaterGuy

Member
Read http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/filter-media-134469.html for the media problem, again couldn't find a straight answer.
What should nitrate levels be in the tank as well? I've heard 10ppm all the way to 0ppm...
So far I haven't found any straight answers, and that's what I've come here for, even then.... Same for phosphates?
In regards to the filter media, there is a built in filter if anyone has read what I said lol; and it has bio balls (or, other media im just going to call it bio balls) and a sponge filter, and has carbon. So now this is going to be a reef tank, wont the carbon take out all the supplements provided for the corals?
 
NewSaltWaterGuy

NewSaltWaterGuy

Member
Watched some videos from fluval, helped better my understanding for sw cycles and such, and from them they say its the same as freshwater... now this is fluval so idk if that is accurate or not so ill hopefully let anyone on here clarify that for me. Also they made a good video with live rock & sand and explained all that, very nicely made and accurate. Still hoping to get the questions answeres
 
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DaveK

Well-Known Member
Think about the differences between a small FW planted tank, say 15 gal, and a large FW planted tank, say 100 gal. There are differences but it mostly a question of scale. The larger tank is going to have more filtration and lighting because it's a larger tank. It may also have more advanced equipment such as CO2 because in the grand scheme of things that is a much small percentage of the total cost of the system. Even so the way you handle the tank itself is very similar.

It's the same with reef systems. Most that applies to a large system applies to a small system also. Just that the smaller system may not have all the advanced gear.

You seem to be stuck on filtration and filter media.

Just like FW, your basic components of filtration are biological, mechanical, and chemical.

Mechanical filtration is identical to what you have been doing in FW all these years, except that you need to clean the mechanical media much more often, usually every several days to a week.

In SW, especially in larger systems, you usually have a skimmer. This is another form of mechanical filtration. The big advantage of a skimmer is that you can remove a lot of waste products before the biological filtration needs to deal with it. In some SW reef systems a large powerful skimmer is used, and other mechanical filtration is not used. That being said, since you have a smaller system, it's usually not worth the investment in a skimmer because you can do large water changes with out too much trouble. A 5 gal water change can be about a 50% water change in the tank your looking at.

Chemical filtration involves can involve a lot of different media. Carbon often supplied in all in one systems because it's cheep, However, it's a controversial media for a number of reasons. Many don't use it at all or use it only from time to time. Media such as Purigen can be used in SW, similar to how it's used in FW. You'll also see media such as GFO used to remove phosphates, and other similar media to remove nitrates. These are used on an as needed basis. There are also a ton of other proprietary media out there, such as Chemipure. These are often controversial because they are not much different from bulk media. You could go on and on reading about various chemical media, but generally your better off using only what you need, and in some cases this may be no chemical media at all.

Biological filtration is quite a bit different in a SW reef system. Live rock is used at about 1 pound per gallon of water, and this is the biological filtration system. In other works, you don't need the biomedia in the filter at all. In fact, biomedia in the filter system usually becomes a dirt trap and a nitrate factory. This is why many people just leave it out or remove it once the tank is going.

This brings up the question of why the all in one tank has biomedia. This is because in non-reef SW systems, that don't use live rock, you need a place for biological filtration.

As you can see, it's possible to setup and run the filtration system various ways, and in some cases not use much in the way of conventional media. No one single way is going to be correct all the time, and a lot of this depends on what you want to keep in the tank.

If I were doing this myself, I'd keep the existing mechanical filtration and carbon for now, but remove the bioballs and use live rock. As needed, I'd consider other chemical media. However, I wouldn't consider another method wrong, depending upon what was going to be kept.
 
NewSaltWaterGuy

NewSaltWaterGuy

Member
Thank you DaveK definitely answered most of my questions into that, also copied and saved parts of that in a word doc. for later use! So its, basically in the long run, more of an opinionated kind of thing? some filtration methods I mean. I guess in this saltwater thing, with filtration, and with only water/live rock/ PS2 skimmer (heard bad reviews but may aswell give it a shot)/ and other basic things, will just have to kind of experiment on my own! which im fine with I love keeping busy, why I am doing this :D
So now another question popped up while you typed that Dave that I didn't think about before, silly me as its important....
Nitrites and Ammonia in a SW you want to always keep at a absolute zero correct? as in FW?
And as for nitrates usually in FW you keep it around 10 to 15ppm (or at least I do for best results)
Is that the usual parameters for a SW tank, depending on what your keeping of course but I mean empty and default setup.
Also thank you again for taking your time to read and answer all these questions, im sure they are asked an answered frequently. Which leads me to search the forum more :)
Will definitely be staying on this forum though for the long run.
 
SPR

SPR

Well-Known Member
Id firstly say, if you can, the best way to make your life easier is to start with a bigger tank. Doesn't need to be a monster tank, but with a nano of that size you are going to have to stay on top of water parameters constantly. The reason is that the larger the tank, the less and slower, these parameters are likely to move. I'm talking salinity, Alk, Ca, Mg, Ph, Nitrate, phosphate.........

Nitrite/ammonia should be zero.

Nitrate and phosphate - well you will find an infinite answer to this question, but generally I think the 'norm' for ideal phosphate is around 0.03ppm and nitrate, well some keep very low <0.25ppm, some keep <5 some keep <10 etc..... mines around 5ppm and the reasons you keep these low, is to avoid algea issues, but not to low that you 'starve' the corals. It's a balancing act and hence the bigger the tank, the easier it is to control the balance and avoid wild swings.

If you get a bigger tank you will need a protein skimmer as this will help control the nitrates/phosphates. And if you don't get a bigger tank, maybe very regular water changes will deal with this issue but you will have to keep on top of it.

You need to probably decide how much maintaining you want to do, because with a nano your going to have to really keep on top of it. The larger the tank the easier they are to maintain (within normal home sizes that is). Oh and also you can put more corals and fish in to stare at constantly which is the whole point.
 
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mr_tap_water

mr_tap_water

Well-Known Member
IMO all this advice I would imagine it's going to go over your head if not scare you off altogether.

As DaveK said in the beginning post you really do need to read up first on the basics,
Your tank you're considering getting is small and with lack of knowledge in the beginning could be costly as there is no error for margin ,

people that do have these tanks and run them successfully for a length of time usually have at least The basic knowledge that comes with this.


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NewSaltWaterGuy

NewSaltWaterGuy

Member
Thanks both for the advice;
Reason I am starting with a small tank is not just so I can look at it, im doing it for the work, and the looky loo's when im sitting down or something. I can do maintenance daily, not new to that as with my FW scapes I trim pretty much every day, parameter check every 2 weeks and I graph those so I can see and fluctuations (after cycling there is none other than nitrate, rising about 2ppm and lowering 2ppm).
This again wont be up for weeks, if not 4 to 5 or maybe even 6 months, I have room to do more research. This is part of my research though and I came here to get my basic questions (listed) answered because all im finding on google and (also my library doesn't have those books) such is advanced stuff. With larger tanks. Thanks to some videos though I have been highly assisted. Ive also seen videos and articles on how the chosen tank is the best starter tank, prepares you for maintenance and also provides good looks. That im iffy on, many people said this so im guessing its true. Either way.
 
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NewSaltWaterGuy

NewSaltWaterGuy

Member
So I read, More Articles.... like the 20th one not that that is a bad thing lol super fun reading them. And still haven't found Basic information... How hard can it be to find answers???? The questions listed in the OP are still open for answers...
 
R

ReefDudes

New Member
1) bio balls (I use marine pure) act as a place for beneficial bacteria to grow as does the live rock in your tank. It's good to run carbon in a reef to keep the water clear and soak up Any nasties

2) you mix your salt water to 1.025 salinity (my target) and add to tank. You only add salt to pre mix bucket and not to the tank directly for a water change. As water evaporates from your tank salt stays so your salinity will slowly rise. You will need to top of your water with RODI water to account for evaporation (most use an auto top off)

3) no you don't need a skimmer on a small tank. Just do weekly water changes

4) any coral will adapt and be fine. The key is consistency and stability. Ideally you would have a PH closer to 8 but mine hovers at 7.9 ish

5) nano fish! Check out live aquarias nano section. Inverts are also great for small tanks.

6) sand depth is up to you. I generally do 1-1.5"

7)if it's live rock it will accelerate your cycle. If it's dry your starting from scratch and can build out of tank

8) cycle is the same concept as fresh water


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