DSB...Let's Discuss!

Scooterman

Active Member
You see Katrina, that is where I had part of my problem, where do you get the proper critters as prescribed by Dr. Ron? According to him, you can't just go out and buy it, almost saying you need to dive deep and scoop up your own. Hey I don't know! Point I was thinking at lunch just now, I love to visit the large aquariums whenever I travel, Never seen a huge tank with a DSb, commercial grade anyways. Could you imagine these 5000g tanks with a huge DSB? Not, all BB! Point to think about, the only sand beds I've seen was in the smaller reef tanks the had, all thin and specialized corals in each, including critters, but these are few and far apart. Ok Nikki will probably beat me on this also LOL!
 
nikki, thanks for the links....i read them...they helped a bit..one of the guys was talking about starting a siphon with a micron sock to vacuum/clean the substrate....if i understood right, no sand would be removed with his method, only whatever nastiness is stirred up manually....this way the water would be replaced without having to do a water change and add more n or p with new salt....

seems like it could be promising...but time-consuming....my herbal medication creates a lot of down-time for me....;)

there was also mention of how fresh new live sand from the store is already packed with phosphates....perhaps there is a way to treat this sand before adding it to our tanks??
 

NaH2O

Contributing Member
LOL - well, Scott, I was busy making copies of my notes for you ;)

Well, IMO (which isn't much) DSBs aren't what they were originally sold as. If you read back to the quotes Mike posted of Dr. Ron's - there is definite contradiction. In my view they were supposed to be this set-it and forget it type system. Now, after reading, I can't imagine having as many critters as is needed to function to its fullest - again, my view. What about the phosphates? - they will be there - nothing to do about it, but try to minimize the addition of more than necessary. Having said all of this, I would like to point out Rob Toonen, who has success with his tank. I have a number of threads I can pull over from another site, but I think I wll add just this one (for now...hehe ;) ): DSB revisited . There you will find a post by Biogeek (Rob Toonen) with a picture of his tank. There are people that have had success with DSBs, so it is possible.
 

Scooterman

Active Member
:thumbup: :smoking: :LOL:

I'll sit back abd just read your notes!
I couldn't agree more, even when I was setting my DSB I never figured out how I would get all that was needed, also didn't know how to tell if I did have what was needed or even if it was actually working as planned, not like there was a meter to buy or I had his degree, I still laugh when he says Feed & Feed Heavy!
 
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BoomerD

Well-Known Member
I've been following this discussion with some interest. While I certainly don't claim to know or understand all the chemistry behind the different theories, I like the look of the sand bed. I also do not like the look of a bare botton or starboard tank. Too sterile. That being said, I AM interested in trying to make sure that the animals in my care get treated as best as I possibly can, so the idea of a nutrient sink disturbs me.
At this time however, my main concern withadding a DSB to my new 180 is that sand & acrylic make a very scratchy mix. My sump has a place for a small fuge, 16x18x~4" thick, and that's certainly not enough to accomplish everything that a fuge or sand bed was meant to do. So, I read, and watch the threads while trying to make up my mind.
 

Scooterman

Active Member
Old School, some of these guys/gals has had reefs over the ten year mark, even some of them switched, I don't know why would one want to mess with a system that has been working so long or maybe working but not perfect or for whatever reason of switching to such a major commitment.
The phosphate pump is mine and only mine, not sharing that idea! :)
 

Curtswearing

Active Member
BoomeD,

That's the whole point of the New Frontiers forum. To openly discuss issues without fear of being attacked for having a different opinion. That way you can have whatever kind of system you want but know the consequences of the different methods.

I'm at work and I read quickly and type when I'm on the phone so I will likely be out of this conversation for long periods of time.

I think what we need to do is ask ourself some questions.

What are we trying to accomplish with DSB's, non-DSB's, Fuges, etc. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Once you know what you are trying to accomplish, then you can maybe hit the issues from multiple angles.
 

Scooterman

Active Member
Yep because if there was an exact science to this, we wouldn't even be threading about them so much. I wonder if FW forums are as bad?
 

Craig Manoukian

Well-Known Member
This the challenge, eh? "Just trying to recreate God's perfection in a glass bowl"! It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination!


:) :D :cool: ;) :p :smirk:
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Maybe I can muddy up the Phosphate thing for a few folks. P is in everything, so it is a very key player in the game of life. It is also a nutrient and a food for alot of things. As it relates to our tanks, Our test kits can only measure inorganic forms of P. Call it food that has not been eaten yet. The vast majority of P inour tank are in the form of organic. Call it food that is part of some type of critter, (bacteria/algae,nematodes, bound to argonite sand, everything really). Your reef tank is a very aggressive in regards to eating. bacteria/algae and so on will have massive population increase to keep up with the food surplus. If you get a reading of PO4 inorganic phosphate, it is telling you that your p is saturated to the point where in can not be bound by anything any more and thus it stays soluable in your water. To much P can cause all sorts of problems from algae blooms to not allowing corals to calcify (cant make skelitons) and so on. so we dont want to go thier.
Ok how does this work with a DSB. with a DSB you get hit 2 ways. One is that the sand itself comes into your tank fully bound with P, from its previous life. You put it in. Now as your anaerobic zone builds up, the ph level in the lower reaches of the bed goes down, as it goes down it melts the sand and thus unbinds the P that was once locked in it. The P upwells and is jumped on by both bacteria and algae. Which leads us to the second problem. Now if you take this P that is being freed with i the bed and then add the P we get from AS mixes, and foods and additives and so much more, we end up with a lot. Now what you end up with is a biological cycle. the bacteria that bind up the P have a population explosion, but as the P deminishes the bacteria end up starting to die plus they dont really have a long life span anyway (sometimes only 12 hours). anyway as they perish they release all the P and N that they have absorbed or eaten, this is immediately bound up by Vegitation, Usually Cyanobacteria, hair algae, and most other pest forms of algae. Now the same thing happens all over again, the algae blooms as the food source is available, until it begin to use it all up, them it begins to die and rot, when this happens the bacteria once again take advantage of the situation and begin to once again bloom. Anyway it is a never ending cycle, that only gets worse with the addition of foods everyday.

On Rob Toonans tank you must keep one thing in mind, his tank has a very very low bioload and only contains corals that love a nutrient rich enviroment. Also from what I understand, it was broken down in the middle of that run of time.


Hope it helped


Mike
 

Maxx

Well-Known Member
Actually Mike,
I think that Rob Toonan's tank was broken down after 14 years or so, and then "sectioned off" to many people. He posted on RAG about this before this forum got started. I believe its the thread that Nikki linked to.
Nick
 
I've been looking for a good explanation of this Mike ... and you just provided me one. Now to synthesize it into my own head, so I can explain it elsewhere :rolleyes:

Great read, folks. It's nice to have this a polite discussion [kudos to RS!] :D
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Actually Mike, I think that Rob Toonan's tank was broken down after 14 years or so, and then "sectioned off" to many people. He posted on RAG about this before this forum got started. I believe its the thread that Nikki linked to.
Are you sure Nick? it was my impression that somewhere midway in the lifespan of the tank it was moved to a new location, I thought to his parents house when he went to college?? I will see if I can find out.

MIke
 
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