DIY sump set-up, HELP!
- Thread starter grayFish
- Start date
skeletor121
Member
sweet. Thanks for the info Maxx. I finally understand why that baffle is there. I didn't think having a shorter baffle would be of use, but have seen it in a different diagram and wanted to check on it. Thanks again.
strat
Member
hey maxx, i just wanted to say thanks alot for all the great info and you da man... :bouncer:
keep it coming... maybe a little more clarification on the overflow in the tank and how to stop it from draining the tank in case of a power out. i still havent quite figured that out..
thanks again
strat
keep it coming... maybe a little more clarification on the overflow in the tank and how to stop it from draining the tank in case of a power out. i still havent quite figured that out..
thanks again
strat
Maxx
Well-Known Member
Strat,
Thank you, I appreciate the compliment.
1)...drill a small hole (or holes for redundancy) in your sump return line INSIDE your tank, (don't want to create leaks!). When this portion of the line hits air, it will "break" siphon, thereby preventing any more water from draining back down your return. This method has one big potential problem...the hole can get plugged, and then its like you never had it in the first place. The hole can get plugged by coraline algae, encrusting coral growth, regular non calcareous algae, a snail, snail eggs etc....
Also drilling a hole in your return line will cause water to flow from it while its under pressure, (ie working normally). This water will probably come out at fairly decent stream depending on your return flow rate, and the diameter of the hole you have drilled. Plan accordingly. If you don't want a little salt water geyser, drill the hole lower, just realize that the water level above the hole is what has to drain out in order to expose the hole and break siphon. So make sure your sump can handle it. Which brings us to the second option...
2)....Make sure your sump can hold the extra water. This is the best way to go in my opinion. Why?? Because if your sump can contain all the excess water in your system, then you don't have to worry about drilling holes and keeping them clean and snail free. This is also easily accomplished by ensuring that your sump is decently sized, and your returns are high enough up that they are only covered by an inch or two of water. Granted on a larger tank you will still be talking about alot of water, but bigger tanks require a larger footprint, which means that they can house significantly more equipment, or significantly larger equipment, underneath Do your self a favor and test all plumbing and sump capacity during a power shortage someplace that can handle leaks, (garage, outside etc) Power everything up, leave it for a couple of hours, (days are better) and look for leaks. Then tunr the power off and see what happens. Sounds like rocket science , huh? Yeah, its really that easy, and unfortunately those are really the two primary solutions.
Check valves CANNOT, I say again, CANNOT be counted upon! They do fail. Not always due to manufacturers error or design flaw, but they do fail often enough that they should not be the only means of keeping water in your tank and not on your floor. They get jammed by debris, (snails are a common one there), they get overgorwn by algae, they get covered by encrusting non photosysnthetic organisms, (sea squirts are a good example). there are many more ways things can go wrong w/ check valves. Dont take my word for it though. Do a search at Reef Central or at Reef Aquarium Guide. Both of those forums have been up for a long time and have had people use check valves and complain about it. This board has only been up for something like 3 minutes so there probably isnt anything on check valves in this system. If there is its because MojoReef put it in the library forum of plumbing. Come to think of it...He's a great one to ask about plumbing feats of genius. His aquarium is a 650 gallon monster that he had to plumb from scratch and is a fantastic tank in my opinion. Its so big he literally had to rip the sliding glass door off his house to get it in.
I hope all this helps, if not feel free to ask further questions for clarification.
Nick
Thank you, I appreciate the compliment.
Okay, this ones fairly easy. You basically have two options:
1)...drill a small hole (or holes for redundancy) in your sump return line INSIDE your tank, (don't want to create leaks!). When this portion of the line hits air, it will "break" siphon, thereby preventing any more water from draining back down your return. This method has one big potential problem...the hole can get plugged, and then its like you never had it in the first place. The hole can get plugged by coraline algae, encrusting coral growth, regular non calcareous algae, a snail, snail eggs etc....
Also drilling a hole in your return line will cause water to flow from it while its under pressure, (ie working normally). This water will probably come out at fairly decent stream depending on your return flow rate, and the diameter of the hole you have drilled. Plan accordingly. If you don't want a little salt water geyser, drill the hole lower, just realize that the water level above the hole is what has to drain out in order to expose the hole and break siphon. So make sure your sump can handle it. Which brings us to the second option...
2)....Make sure your sump can hold the extra water. This is the best way to go in my opinion. Why?? Because if your sump can contain all the excess water in your system, then you don't have to worry about drilling holes and keeping them clean and snail free. This is also easily accomplished by ensuring that your sump is decently sized, and your returns are high enough up that they are only covered by an inch or two of water. Granted on a larger tank you will still be talking about alot of water, but bigger tanks require a larger footprint, which means that they can house significantly more equipment, or significantly larger equipment, underneath Do your self a favor and test all plumbing and sump capacity during a power shortage someplace that can handle leaks, (garage, outside etc) Power everything up, leave it for a couple of hours, (days are better) and look for leaks. Then tunr the power off and see what happens. Sounds like rocket science , huh? Yeah, its really that easy, and unfortunately those are really the two primary solutions.
Check valves CANNOT, I say again, CANNOT be counted upon! They do fail. Not always due to manufacturers error or design flaw, but they do fail often enough that they should not be the only means of keeping water in your tank and not on your floor. They get jammed by debris, (snails are a common one there), they get overgorwn by algae, they get covered by encrusting non photosysnthetic organisms, (sea squirts are a good example). there are many more ways things can go wrong w/ check valves. Dont take my word for it though. Do a search at Reef Central or at Reef Aquarium Guide. Both of those forums have been up for a long time and have had people use check valves and complain about it. This board has only been up for something like 3 minutes so there probably isnt anything on check valves in this system. If there is its because MojoReef put it in the library forum of plumbing. Come to think of it...He's a great one to ask about plumbing feats of genius. His aquarium is a 650 gallon monster that he had to plumb from scratch and is a fantastic tank in my opinion. Its so big he literally had to rip the sliding glass door off his house to get it in.
I hope all this helps, if not feel free to ask further questions for clarification.
Nick
Maxx
Well-Known Member
I plan on seperating my sump and my refugium to allow for differing flow rates which will allow the refugium more contact time w/ the water flowing through it, yes. And yes you would need a seperate overflow and pump, but its not a return pum, its a feed pump. Cause in this case you can put a small powerhead in the sump, connect some tubing to its output nozzle and run that to your refugium. Drill a hole and get a small elbow plumbed into your refugium which will drain back into your sump.That way your sump return takes care of bring the pod rich, algae nutrient poor water back to the main tank. Make sense?
I'm not really sure what your asking here, but a closed loop takes water from the tank, runs it through a pump and runs back to the tank, circulating it. you don't need to worry about power outage problems and overlfowing since the water can't go anywhere. You still wanna watch out for leaks at fittings and joints, but not from overflowing. Its alot like an occilating fan in your house. It doesnt pull air in from outside, it just circulates air thats already inside the room. I hope this makes sense. I'm finishing up a paper for class tomorrow, and I'm bout fried...
If you have any further questions don't hesitate to ask,
Ill get to them tomorrow
Nick
strat
Member
thanks again maxx, this is good stuff
one more question, (i hope its ok to ask here grayfish), how do you make the overflow box etc. ( iguess it would really help if i had a reef tank in the area that i could go see......) from reading lately i see that there's a prefilter in the overflow. do i have to buy the overflow or is it simply some glass and plumbing around the drilled holes... muchos gracias again
strat
one more question, (i hope its ok to ask here grayfish), how do you make the overflow box etc. ( iguess it would really help if i had a reef tank in the area that i could go see......) from reading lately i see that there's a prefilter in the overflow. do i have to buy the overflow or is it simply some glass and plumbing around the drilled holes... muchos gracias again
strat
skeletor121
Member
Strat,
I have been asking that same question in another thread: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=293 . Hopefully I will get a response on how to build an overflow in that thread.
I have been asking that same question in another thread: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=293 . Hopefully I will get a response on how to build an overflow in that thread.
Maxx
Well-Known Member
Hey guys,
I'm gonna attempt to answer the questions in the order they were asked....
In one version, you dont need an overflow box. The plumbing comes straight out of the tank, (either back wall or from bottom of tank in some commercially available models...marineland for example). ReefLady has done this on her tank at home. She has (I think, cant find the pics...going from memory here), three 90 degree elbows mounted to bulkheads in her tank. The elbows are at an angle and capped of w/ strainers/plastic mesh grills to ensure nothing gets sucked down stream that shouldn't. Her return is mounted the same way...just off the back wall of the tank. (edit...Reef Lady was kind enough to give her pics to show what exactly I'm talking about ...link in the post below)
I don't particularly like the Marineland version which is just a piece of Plumbing rising up from the base of the tank, the return is the same way. My rationale is this...anytime you make a hole in a fragile/ breakable material, (in this case glass), you weaken the overall strength of the structure. In most cases this is okay, Engineers are smarter than most people and they realize that the rest of us are generally gonna go do something stupid and test the limits of whatever it is they design, (like drilling holes in otherwise perfectly good aquarium glass). So they typically over-engineer whatever it is they plan to make...A friend of mine (who's a mechanical engineer) calls it the moron factor. According to Stuart, "If any moron can walk up to it, (whatever it is) and break it w/o half trying, you did'nt build it right."
However, w/ that big hole that is drilled thru the bottom of the tank and connected by a length of exposed plumbing, (which will act like a lever when you REALLY don't want it to) with no real way of protecting it should a rock tumble, your dogs get too rambunctious, you live in the great state of Confusion, uh...California, and have to deal w/ earthquakes, etc. I just don't like the lack of protection that the exposed pipe has. One fall/bend/twist etc, and bang, now you've broken the bulkhead that its connected to and your tank is draining out onto your floor, and ya can't stop that cause its on the bottom of the tank.
The overflows like RL hasdont really have that same problem. The plumbing attached to them is much shorter, (More force required to cause damage due to less leverage available) and they are mounted high enough up that if you do go all crazy and crack the bulkhead, you've got more time to find a solution. You will lose some water, but hopefully not nearly as much.
This is not to say that bulkheads mounted on the bottom are bad, I just want 'em protected by a nice wall...which (finally) gets us to answering your question....I plan on buying mine .(edit link in post below). I don't have experiance w/ molding/cutting or shaping acrylic just yet, so I'm cheesin out. Melev does some good work w/ acrylic and he might be able to help you out more than I ever could, (edit... just to be different... the link to Melev's site is in the post below)
Hope that answers your questions Strat....
Does this make sense?
Nick
I'm gonna attempt to answer the questions in the order they were asked....
Well, to be honest there are several ways to do this.
In one version, you dont need an overflow box. The plumbing comes straight out of the tank, (either back wall or from bottom of tank in some commercially available models...marineland for example). ReefLady has done this on her tank at home. She has (I think, cant find the pics...going from memory here), three 90 degree elbows mounted to bulkheads in her tank. The elbows are at an angle and capped of w/ strainers/plastic mesh grills to ensure nothing gets sucked down stream that shouldn't. Her return is mounted the same way...just off the back wall of the tank. (edit...Reef Lady was kind enough to give her pics to show what exactly I'm talking about ...link in the post below)
I don't particularly like the Marineland version which is just a piece of Plumbing rising up from the base of the tank, the return is the same way. My rationale is this...anytime you make a hole in a fragile/ breakable material, (in this case glass), you weaken the overall strength of the structure. In most cases this is okay, Engineers are smarter than most people and they realize that the rest of us are generally gonna go do something stupid and test the limits of whatever it is they design, (like drilling holes in otherwise perfectly good aquarium glass). So they typically over-engineer whatever it is they plan to make...A friend of mine (who's a mechanical engineer) calls it the moron factor. According to Stuart, "If any moron can walk up to it, (whatever it is) and break it w/o half trying, you did'nt build it right."
However, w/ that big hole that is drilled thru the bottom of the tank and connected by a length of exposed plumbing, (which will act like a lever when you REALLY don't want it to) with no real way of protecting it should a rock tumble, your dogs get too rambunctious, you live in the great state of Confusion, uh...California, and have to deal w/ earthquakes, etc. I just don't like the lack of protection that the exposed pipe has. One fall/bend/twist etc, and bang, now you've broken the bulkhead that its connected to and your tank is draining out onto your floor, and ya can't stop that cause its on the bottom of the tank.
The overflows like RL hasdont really have that same problem. The plumbing attached to them is much shorter, (More force required to cause damage due to less leverage available) and they are mounted high enough up that if you do go all crazy and crack the bulkhead, you've got more time to find a solution. You will lose some water, but hopefully not nearly as much.
This is not to say that bulkheads mounted on the bottom are bad, I just want 'em protected by a nice wall...which (finally) gets us to answering your question....I plan on buying mine .(edit link in post below). I don't have experiance w/ molding/cutting or shaping acrylic just yet, so I'm cheesin out. Melev does some good work w/ acrylic and he might be able to help you out more than I ever could, (edit... just to be different... the link to Melev's site is in the post below)
Just make sure you can get to it for cleaning purposes. If you cant get to it easily, you won't clean it regularly, then it becomes a crap trap. Now instead of floating around your tank where it reminds you to get rid of it, the crap is stuck in an invisible spot quietly rotting and polluting your tank.
Hope that answers your questions Strat....
It really depends on what your doing...If you want contact time like I'm going for in order to export nuisance algae nutrients , I'm planning on at least 2-3 x tank volume an hour. So in my case (20 gallon refugium) 40-60 gph. I may decide to bump this up or down depending on my experiences w/ this set up. Right now, my refugium/sump has a turnover rate of at least 10x and I dont think I'm getting all the benefits of a refugium/ nutrient export that I could be. If your really suing it like a refugium and keeping somethin in there for living purposes, its needs will dictate.
Does this make sense?
Nick
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Maxx
Well-Known Member
allright once again.....this guy can help you out w/ overflows and acrylic work probably.....http://www.melevsreef.com/
here is where I'm buying my overflow from....http://www.wetdryfilter.com/internal_overflow_boxes.htm
And here is a pic of the overflows in Teri's tank...http://home.comcast.net/~76fxe/plumb4.jpg
Here is the Link to Teri/Reef Lady's home aquarium.....http://home.comcast.net/~76fxe/
here is where I'm buying my overflow from....http://www.wetdryfilter.com/internal_overflow_boxes.htm
And here is a pic of the overflows in Teri's tank...http://home.comcast.net/~76fxe/plumb4.jpg
Here is the Link to Teri/Reef Lady's home aquarium.....http://home.comcast.net/~76fxe/
skeletor121
Member
I have got another question for you regarding power failures and sumps. As an added backup to drilling the return line, would it be possible to plumb an "oops" tank/drain line? What I am thinking of is possibly drilling a hole about half an inch below the top of the sump (if you have the freeboard in the sump) that would allow all the excess water to escape if the power shuts down? I was thinking of possilby having it empty into a drain (ideal) or possibly another tank/container that is set lower than the top of the sump. This would allow the excess water to flow into the drain/container by gravity. Any thoughts on this?
Maxx
Well-Known Member
neat idea,
But now your gonna have to raise the sump off the floor, in order to create the height difference necessary. The only problem I see w/ that is lack of verticle space in most stand designs. Another thing to think about is the potential for leakage along any joint or seal in plumbing. I like that you're thinking outside the box.
But wouldnt it be more practical, (and safer) to just ensure that the sump could handle the excess water in the event of a power outage?
In all honesty, I like redundancy. More chances to CYA...with that in mind the stand I've been working on for my upcoming tank, will incorporate a wooden box at the base which is waterproofed, (8 gazillion coats poly urethane!) that exists soley to catch any water that the sump doesnt hold. I estimate theat it will hold approx 21 gallons w/o my sump in it.....10-12 gallons w/ the stand crammed full of my tank accessories, (refugium, sump, reactor..etc)
Keep it up though,
you guys are really coming up w/ some great questions and some cool ideas!
Nick
But now your gonna have to raise the sump off the floor, in order to create the height difference necessary. The only problem I see w/ that is lack of verticle space in most stand designs. Another thing to think about is the potential for leakage along any joint or seal in plumbing. I like that you're thinking outside the box.
But wouldnt it be more practical, (and safer) to just ensure that the sump could handle the excess water in the event of a power outage?
In all honesty, I like redundancy. More chances to CYA...with that in mind the stand I've been working on for my upcoming tank, will incorporate a wooden box at the base which is waterproofed, (8 gazillion coats poly urethane!) that exists soley to catch any water that the sump doesnt hold. I estimate theat it will hold approx 21 gallons w/o my sump in it.....10-12 gallons w/ the stand crammed full of my tank accessories, (refugium, sump, reactor..etc)
Keep it up though,
you guys are really coming up w/ some great questions and some cool ideas!
Nick
skeletor121
Member
Yeah, I know about the downsides of the system I mentioned. I was thinking this could be of use to those people who have sumps located in another room, like in a garage or something, that has a drain in the floor. This would allow them to have a redundant system that wouldn't get their floor all wet. This would also be a good idea in case one of the overflow boxes failed and started to let in all of the water into the overlow tube (the ones drilled to the bottom of the tank).
I like your thought on your new stand. Maybe I will incorporate that into my stand. I have a stand that came with my tank, but it needs some work. Maybe I will put some type of liner in it to make sure I have a back up.
I like your thought on your new stand. Maybe I will incorporate that into my stand. I have a stand that came with my tank, but it needs some work. Maybe I will put some type of liner in it to make sure I have a back up.
Maxx
Well-Known Member
OHHHHH!!!! I hate you!!!!!
I would love to go the Philipines!!!
I have spent the last 5 years training in the Filipino/ Indonesian martial arts, and would love to finally experiance the culture first hand that has had such a positive influence in my life!!!! Unfortunately, being 6'3 and looking incredibly Irish, (cause, well I am...), I don't necessarily blend in w/ the local populace. This is really only a problem when you realize that a large portion of the Philipines is Muslim, and a large portion of the Muslim world has a serious problem w/ the US foreign policy...I would love to visit one day!!! What part of the Philipines are you visiting???
I'm very jealous....please lie to me when you return and tell me that you had NO fun whatsoever, and didnt enjoy yourself at all!!!
Nick