ByrdMon starting all over - open to advice

[BYRD MON]

Howdy,
First post here - first a bit about myself -
Had an amazing 20 Gallon Reef tank in college in the mid 90's -
inherited it from a serious reefer - had zero problems - broke it down after 5 years because zero possibility it would make the trip from Mississippi back to my home in Pennsylvania -

Fast Forward to 2017 - I'm 42 years old, i have a 2 year old son and I wanted to get back into the hobby and set up a tank for his birthday which was March 11th -

Bought a RedSea Max Nano 20GAL - 20 lbs of Manufactured Live Rock from a very reputable LFS (the kind that is seeded, they keep in water, and you transport home in a wet bag, but the coraline algae is painted on but damn it looks spot on), and a 2" bed of live crushed coral -

Set it up, ran it for a month lights off for a full month, weekly 25% water changes then added 2 clowns. Waited a week, all was well, and added a small flame back pygmy angel. waited another 2 weeks and added a tailspot Blenny. Still parameters in the tank were perfect. Levels were perfect this entire time.

Tailspot Blenny turns out to be a total jerk - beats one clown to death in 2 days.. then two days later he has roughly 20 seconds of zig zag freaking out convulsions and dies instantly himself (went from sitting on a rock totally chill, to these crazy zig zag freak out convulsions I just happened to be in the room at the time), Then flameback breaks out in mild Ich and what i think was Velvet or Brooklynella combined with some ich, he dies in a day and second clown the next morning same thing.

Totally devastated I break down tank and return cleanup crew to the LFS (they were totally great about it)

Current Situation: I have an empty tank and I am currently bleaching everything.
I have 20 lbs of this once live manufactured rock that I have now completely dried out.

1. I bought a 10GAL Innovative Marine quarantine Tank and I am committed to quarantine EVERYTHING no matter how long it takes before it EVER goes in my display tank. Even Inverts and Corals
   
   
2. The loss of life really upset me so I am in ZERO hurry to add anything alive for months until i get this tank in a safe place for Livestock. At that point i will add ONE fish and nothing else for a loooong time except cleanup crew of course
   
   
3. I am also committed to running a bare bottom tank. What came out of that Crushed coral after only 2 months of action was mind blowing. I simply feel in a tank this small i just want to run it mean and clean. No carbon, no sponge material in the sump nothing. I want to grow all the bacteria on the rock and have that be my filter.

So my first question is -
- what do i do with this once "live" dried out rock? Is it safe to throw in there and start cycling? Is there anything I need to do to it?

- next - do I ABSOLUTELY HAVE to seed it with real live rock? Id much rather be absolutely POSITIVE there are no parasites in the tank no matter how long that takes to cycle from this current rock. Can i create a sustainable eco system beginning with this dried rock and adding nothing else but time and BActeria additives?

- I do not care how long it takes, I want a completely ich free parasite free tank.. I can imagine how you do that without starting with dried rock, cycling it, and quarantining everything before it goes in the Display Tank.

Thank you in advance - and Im excited to be a part of this forum -
So first question is what to do with the rock now that its dried out? Also I know that people will chime in, but im adamant about running a bare bottom tank, 25% water changes weekly, quarantining EVERYTHING, and trying to use no actual live rock (I'm just not ok with how its acquired and i have zero desire to deal with the hitchhikers it may bring)

I need your help and friendly advice
Hello,
and thanks !!!
~Byrd

 

[Florida Sunshine]

Sure you can start with the dry rock. It just takes longer but it sounds like you know that. Add some of the bottled bacteria (I have been told Dr Tim's is the best but never used it myself), then add a deli shrimp or another ammonia source and watch the cycle.
At the same time go ahead an set up your QT tank and get it seeded with some bacteria. QT tanks are tough because you don't have the LR for the bacteria to live in. Get yourself a simple sponge filter and add some of that starter bacteria there as well.
Do you plan to pro-actively treat all new additions in the QT or just monitor them? If you are really serious about keeping everything out then you will need to treat all new additions with copper as well as a de-wormer.
I applaud your effort to go this route. I wish I had the patience. It will pay off for you in the long run.

 

[BYRD MON]

Sure you can start with the dry rock. It just takes longer but it sounds like you know that. Add some of the bottled bacteria (I have been told Dr Tim's is the best but never used it myself), then add a deli shrimp or another ammonia source and watch the cycle.
At the same time go ahead an set up your QT tank and get it seeded with some bacteria. QT tanks are tough because you don't have the LR for the bacteria to live in. Get yourself a simple sponge filter and add some of that starter bacteria there as well.
Do you plan to pro-actively treat all new additions in the QT or just monitor them? If you are really serious about keeping everything out then you will need to treat all new additions with copper as well as a de-wormer.
I applaud your effort to go this route. I wish I had the patience. It will pay off for you in the long run.

1. Thanks so much for the response! I plan on actively treating every new addition in the QT -
   I have a few concerns about the copper though - and please let me know your thoughts

• I've heard it does not treat everything - I want to make sure i take all new livestock though the proper treatments that would rid them of absolutely everything.. Ich.. Flukes.. Velvet Etc.
  
• Can you think of a combo of meds, that given in succession would treat everything.
  If so - what are they and what do they treat?
• I've heard Copper you cant get out of the tank.. it even gets in the caulk etc.. Would this tank be totally useless after
  doing copper treatments in it? Its a really cool tank, and once I stock the tank with a couple fish and inverts and get things rolling in a year or so - I'd like to use it as a refugium. It would look really cool.. It basically looks exactly like a mini version of my RedSea Max Nano 20 -
  Its a Innovative Marine Nano 10 -
• Assuming i will have NO substrate and no sponge material in the sump etc.. how many pounds of rock should I put in the tank to eventually act as the lone filter for the ecosystem - (yes I will have a micro filter as the water pours into the sump and a protein skimmer) but thats it
  
  Thanks !!
  I look forward to sharing my build with everyone

 

[Squatch XXL]

what do i do with this once "live" dried out rock? Is it safe to throw in there and start cycling? Is there anything I need to do to it?

I will usually put mine in a mild white vinegar solution for a few days before setting up from scratch. Then I load the tank with rock, and cycle with a shrimp for a few months.

I've heard Copper you cant get out of the tank.. it even gets in the caulk etc.. Would this tank be totally useless after
doing copper treatments in it? Its a really cool tank, and once I stock the tank with a couple fish and inverts and get things rolling in a year or so - I'd like to use it as a refugium. It would look really cool.. It basically looks exactly like a mini version of my RedSea Max Nano 20 -
Its a Innovative Marine Nano 10 -

I think you are correct. Petco does $1/gallon sales on tanks pretty regular.

Assuming i will have NO substrate and no sponge material in the sump etc.. how many pounds of rock should I put in the tank to eventually act as the lone filter for the ecosystem - (yes I will have a micro filter as the water pours into the sump and a protein skimmer) but thats it

15-25#. Lots of that weight depends on rock density also.

 

[BYRD MON]

I will usually put mine in a mild white vinegar solution for a few days.

Could you tell me how many parts water.. to how many parts vinegar?
Also - would this be suffice for cleaning my empty tank and equipment right now, or would you suggest the bleach since I had a parasite outbreak..
Thanks !
Byrd

 

[DaveK]

Before you get too involved with your new tank setup, it will be extremely beneficial to analyze why you had problems with the system previously. I can see several problem areas that should be addressed before you setup the system again.

The first problem I see was that your tank was grossly overcrowded. Your 20 gal tank is holding only about 15 gal of water by the time you add live rock. Typically you want 1 inch of fish per 5 gal of water in a SW tank system. With 4 fish, even if they are small, you likely had about 8 inches of fish in a tank that should have held about 3 to 4 at most.

The 2 inch bed of crushed coral is a bit too deep, and it's crushed coral. Crushed coral does tend to trap a lot of dirt. Generally you want about 1" of aragonite sand that is much finer, but not that super fine "sugar sand".

"...Levels were perfect this entire time. …" It would be best to have actual readings here. We don't know what you tested. There might be other tests that should be run. What seems perfect to you might indicate a major problem to someone else. For example after a tank has been running a couple of months, it would be unusual if you didn't see at least some amount of nitrates and phosphates.

The disease problems are obvious and your doing the right thing by planning to quarantine everything.

"...I am also committed to running a bare bottom tank…" All that material that came out of the crushed coral was part of your biological filtration system. You got a lot more that you expected because crushed coral is course. However, this really is something you want in moderation. Keep in mind that with a SW reef system you are constructing a ecosystem. You really don't want the tank to be "...mean and clean. …" While you can run the tank bare bottom, I think you'll get much better results using a much thinner sand bed of aragonite sand.

On your specific questions -

Your live rock is completely dead and may have organic material on it that you don't want to add to the new system. Since this was the result of disease, I would use bleach on it. Put it in another container and add about a cup of bleach per 10 gal of water and let it soak overnight. Then hose off the rock, and soak it in 2 to 3 changes of FW. You can use Prime in the water to neutralize the bleach but it is optional.

The initial cycle of a SW tank should be done by having the system break down some organic matter. Typically a raw shrimp from the seafood department of the grocery store is used. This will start the initial cycle on it's own. You can add various bacteria supplements if you want to but it is not necessary.

You don't need to cycle the tank with actual live rock, but consider that once you add that first coral that little piece of live rock it's on is going to add other things to your tank. This can not be helped. However, most of the fish parasites your worried about are spread from infected fish.

If your going to use copper on new fish, you can't use the quarantine tank for quarantining corals or other inverts. Copper is absorbed by a lot of things and can leach back out, killing any corals or inverts in the process. Once you use copper in a tank usually anything touched by it is something that should not be used in a reef system with corals and inverts.

There is no "combo of meds, that given in succession would treat everything. " If you suspect something or the fish has a high likelihood of having the disease, treat for that, and look for other diseased your may need to treat for. Trying to treat for everything is going to do a lot more harm than good.

You would need about 20 lbs of rock for your system. You already should have this.

Final thoughts -

Keeping healthy fish long term is much more involved with having high quality water and a good diet. If the fish is healthy, a lot of disease issues are avoided.

Don't get hung up on no substrata and no filter media and so on. Sometimes the tank just works better using additional media.

The 25% weekly water changes you plan might be a bit too much. I recommend you start with doing only 10% weekly water changes and working up from there. You can always ramp it up if you feel you need larger ones.

 

[BYRD MON]

OK - everything has been bleached, then soaked and rinsed and soaked and rinsed in with "PRIME" for another week to rid all the chlorine.

I'm now ready to set up the tank over this weekend and I think I've been convinced to add a shallow sand bed to hep with surface area for bacteria to grow on.

Im not going to use crushed coral, its just lest too much gunk get down in there. I vacuumed weekly, and when i broke the tank down after only a month it was insane how much debris came out -

My local shop offers CAribSea Arogonite reef sand - I was instructed to put a thin 1" layer down.
My question is - Is this deep enough - and in a 20 gallon Reef tank, in which I plan to ONLY have a Pygmy FlameBack Angel and a TailSpot Blenny ion... is the sand even necessary.. and If Im only doing 1".. is that enough to do the job? Could the bacteria on the 15-20 lbs of rock that I put in there be suffice.

Also - I don't plan on putting any fish in here until June at the earliest - I want this thing to be stabilized - I never want to go through what happened to me again -
Slow and steady.. and doing it up right..
I also have a Quarantine Tank I set up as well -

Thanks for the advice on the sand - IS 1" of sand even worth it - or can the rock support 2 fish?
~Chris

 

[DaveK]

You do not need any substrata at all. Many reef systems are set up as bare bottom tanks. If you don't like the completely bare bottom, you can use just enough sand to cover it. The one exception to all this is if you want to keep fish the burrow in the sand. In that case, you'll need more.