Be electrically safe, or else! Lesson learned...wild pic

C

cah73

Member
So let me start by saying that I haven't been having much luck the past few weeks, I recently started up my 55 gallon again after it started leaking years ago... After the first month everything was going great, have 2 clowns, a falco hawkfish, and a nice sized clean up crew. Check my reef chronicles for the next few things if your interested in details, although I have yet to add all the updates...


I finally setup my custom made fuge, and everything was working great! Until the second day I realized I purchased a COPPER friggin ball valve to control the flow into the fuge( which you can see in the pic) idiot..:banghead::banghead:... Well even the one day it was connected before I switched it out, it managed to poison almost half of my CUC. Ad my sand sifting star is nowhere to be found( tried diggin) and planning on having an ammonia spike too soon I guess:evileye: so I did a 50% water change and I'm running carbon for the next 4 days... Hopefully this will fix things. (Any ideas as to where to find the star? Deep in the sand??)

MY TROUBLES JUST BEGAN! One night I could smell something burning...I knew it was electrical from the smell...so I checked my house only to find it was from by timer/powers trip! I shut it down and had to get all new things'!

It was a eroded powerhead cord(3+ years old) that was malfunctioning... I have currently got a new strip and have replaced my wall outlet with a GFI outlet and got new powerheads! Lesson learned and thank heavens I was home to catch this on the spot! Make sure everyone is safe about their electricals and that you are using the drip loop properly!

Happy reef keeping! And be safe!
 
ReefingFun

ReefingFun

Member
Sad story :(

I don't want to add more bad news, but in most cases just running carbon to remove copper doesn't really help :( Copper is some nasty business to get rid off. I tried in my old nano and never got it out completely.
Though considering it just came from the valve and for 1 day, it just might help if the copper particles are big enough.

Best of luck though!!!
 
nivek

nivek

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
RS Ambassador
Oh man, that is nasty. Luckily you caught it in time, could have turned out worse. All the best in getting the tank back into gear.
 
reefer gladness

reefer gladness

Well-Known Member
Sometimes misery loves a little company so if it makes you feel any better I also put a bronze plumbing part in my first tank in the early days. Most likely your part was bronze as well but the damage is the same with bronze being a combo of copper and tin.

Good news! Poly-Filter extracts copper and copper salts! http://www.marinedepot.com/Poly_Filter_Filter_Pad_Mechanical_Filter_Media-Poly_Bio_Marine-PB1111-FIFMMEPM-vi.html

I've used it, it works. The pad turns different colors depending on what it extracts. It's a blue to bluish-green color for copper. Just put the pads in a high flow area and keep replacing until there's no trace of any color but tan or brown which is organic waste.
 
Mdk16

Mdk16

Member
I had some cheap timers melt down like that on my old tank. Very scary. After that happened I upgraded to outdoor waterproof timers you can find at Home Depot. On my current system I also installed a battery operated smoke alarm to get our attention if anything starts to smoke.
 
D

DaveK

Well-Known Member
cah73 said:
So let me start by saying that I haven't been having much luck the past few weeks, I recently started up my 55 gallon again after it started leaking years ago... After the first month everything was going great, have 2 clowns, a falco hawkfish, and a nice sized clean up crew. Check my reef chronicles for the next few things if your interested in details, although I have yet to add all the updates...


I finally setup my custom made fuge, and everything was working great! Until the second day I realized I purchased a COPPER friggin ball valve to control the flow into the fuge( which you can see in the pic) idiot..:banghead::banghead:... Well even the one day it was connected before I switched it out, it managed to poison almost half of my CUC. Ad my sand sifting star is nowhere to be found( tried diggin) and planning on having an ammonia spike too soon I guess:evileye: so I did a 50% water change and I'm running carbon for the next 4 days... Hopefully this will fix things. (Any ideas as to where to find the star? Deep in the sand??)

MY TROUBLES JUST BEGAN! One night I could smell something burning...I knew it was electrical from the smell...so I checked my house only to find it was from by timer/powers trip! I shut it down and had to get all new things'!

[Picture removed to save space]

It was a eroded powerhead cord(3+ years old) that was malfunctioning... I have currently got a new strip and have replaced my wall outlet with a GFI outlet and got new powerheads! Lesson learned and thank heavens I was home to catch this on the spot! Make sure everyone is safe about their electricals and that you are using the drip loop properly!

Happy reef keeping! And be safe!
Click to expand...

Two points about GFI.

First, it can only trip if there is a leakage it can detect. If you have something like lighting that is on electronic ballasts or power supplies, and it falls "in the drink" the GFI may not trip. Even with GFI, never depend upon it. It's also a good idea to check power cords of anything that goes into the tank, like pumps, powerheads and heaters.

Second, GFI can get "false positives" and trip. I have lost entire reefs when a GFI tripped when I was on vacation, and the system had no power for days. Today I specifically do NOT put my main return pump on a GFI circuit. I have also found that some ballasts, especially electronic metal halide ballasts will cause a GFI to trip. These also should be on GFI circuits. BTW, this is also why I prefer to suspend my lighting from the ceiling when ever possible. Makes it almost impossible to have it drop into the tank.
 
C

cah73

Member
DaveK said:
Two points about GFI.

First, it can only trip if there is a leakage it can detect. If you have something like lighting that is on electronic ballasts or power supplies, and it falls "in the drink" the GFI may not trip. Even with GFI, never depend upon it. It's also a good idea to check power cords of anything that goes into the tank, like pumps, powerheads and heaters.

Second, GFI can get "false positives" and trip. I have lost entire reefs when a GFI tripped when I was on vacation, and the system had no power for days. Today I specifically do NOT put my main return pump on a GFI circuit. I have also found that some ballasts, especially electronic metal halide ballasts will cause a GFI to trip. These also should be on GFI circuits. BTW, this is also why I prefer to suspend my lighting from the ceiling when ever possible. Makes it almost impossible to have it drop into the tank.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice with the poly filters, I will def pick one up!

Also the waterproof timer/power strip seems like a great idea as well! Especially after a scare like this..

And as for the GFI, that info is very interesting...I will for sure look into it in depth before installing this, if I do at all!
 
jrbass

jrbass

Member
DaveK said:
Two points about GFI.

First, it can only trip if there is a leakage it can detect. If you have something like lighting that is on electronic ballasts or power supplies, and it falls "in the drink" the GFI may not trip. Even with GFI, never depend upon it. It's also a good idea to check power cords of anything that goes into the tank, like pumps, powerheads and heaters.

Second, GFI can get "false positives" and trip. I have lost entire reefs when a GFI tripped when I was on vacation, and the system had no power for days. Today I specifically do NOT put my main return pump on a GFI circuit. I have also found that some ballasts, especially electronic metal halide ballasts will cause a GFI to trip. These also should be on GFI circuits. BTW, this is also why I prefer to suspend my lighting from the ceiling when ever possible. Makes it almost impossible to have it drop into the tank.
Click to expand...

As an electrician I agree! I think I would look into using an AFCI(arc fault circuit interrupter) instead of GFCI. They now make a AFCI in an outlet form where it used to be breaker form only. I would also consider using a battery backup for some sort of circulation in case of a shutdown.
 
Choff

Choff

Well-Known Member
Hey Jr thanks for chiming in. I'll take a look into those.

Question maybe you can answer, I recall reading that you do not want to use a gfci and a grounding probe in the tank. It is better to do either or with the preference being the gfci. Any comment on why is bad to use both? I've failed trying to find that article. It was really well written.

...stupid auto correct
 
D

DaveK

Well-Known Member
Placing a grounding probe in a tank that is connected to GFI outlet or a breaker can cause a lot of false trips. Ideally you want to connect the ground probe to a non-gfi ground. If you get false trips, you usually have something else wrong. Then it's time to unplug everything and plug them back in one at a time looking for the offending item.

The basic premise that "...you do not want to use a gfci and a grounding probe in the tank..." is sort of correct, if you do it wrong. Like other things in the hobby a lot of stuff gets taken out of context, and incorrectly considered gospel.
 
Choff

Choff

Well-Known Member
Thanks Dave, I really need to find the this article. The focus was on safety. There was very thorough explanation in very basic terms. I read it over a year ago when i first set up my tank. I took it for gospel, but now forget why.

...stupid auto correct
 
Choff

Choff

Well-Known Member
Found it... Sorry it's long and looks like I recalled it incorrectly . Credit to Jdieck on RC.

A GFCI does not make the ground probe either necessary or un-necessary but a ground probe makes a GFCI necessary.

Here is the long and detailed answer so please stay with me.

There are several possible cases or scenarios of short circuit in an aquarium system.

Scenario 1. Hot line to water via submerged equipment. This is when a submerged piece of equipment like a powerhead, heater or UV lamp fails and the hot line of the power supply gets in contact with the water:

a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe.
As the tank is isolated from ground via plastic piping and wood stands the water becomes energized to 110 V but the main breaker does not trip as there is no current to ground. Fish has no problem because they are in a situation similar to a bird standing on a power line. This is a VERY DANGEROUS situation for the aquarist because as soon as you touch the water you get electrocuted as you become the path of current to ground. Breaker does not trip as there is not enough time for it to act or enough current to create enough heat. (They are slow trippers)

b) GFCI installed but no Ground Probe: Again nothing happen initially but the tank gets energized to 110 volts. as soon as you touch the water the GFCI will trip within 5 milliseconds and below a current of less than 5 milliamps. You may feel a small shock but nothing enough to hurt. This is the safest situation for the tank critters but may still hurt the aquarist mainly if the GFCI is malfunctioning.

c) GROUND PROBE INSTALLED BUT NO GFCI (Our case of discussion in this thread): As soon as the device fails and a short circuit is established then current is established to the ground probe, current may or may not be high enough to trip the breaker. Fish and critters will die and corals will RTN. If the breaker does not trip (Which is most of the cases) the short circuit may not be noticeable and you will be at a loss of why your critters are dying, even if you touch the water you may not notice unless the ground probe is not making a good ground. (See also Scenario 3c below) This is also a dangerous situation for potential fire. The current could be high but not high enough to trip the breaker, wires heat up, insulation melts and they catch fire.

d) Ground Probe Installed and GFCI installed: As soon as the short circuit is established the GFCI will trip shutting down whatever equipment is connected giving you a physical indication there is a short and something bad for you to fix immediately. This is the safest situation for the aquarist but has the downside that if you are away from the tank for a long time the lack of operating vital equipment may put your critters at risk.

So under this scenario the safest for the aquarist is to use both a GFCI and a ground probe. The next safest is to use GFCI alone.

Scenario 2: Short circuit between hot line and neutral on submerged equipment:[B/]

a) No GFCI and No Ground Probe: device and line will over heat. if current is high enough breaker will trip but it may take some time 10 seconds up to 5 minutes depending on the quality of the short. Plastic parts or rubber seals on the device may melt creating a secondary short reviewed under scenario 1 and releasing toxic chemicals into the water also copper wire may get exposed also releasing copper sulphate and other copper compounds to the water. Large mortality of critter is most probable.

b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: GFCI will not activate even if a secondary short to water is created as the water is not grounded and there will be no leakage current to create a current un-balance between hot and neutral so GFCI will not be able to detect the situation. Here as in 2a above (as well as 2c below) you are dependant on the breaker.

c) Ground probe installed but no GFCI: Same situation as in 2a above but if a secondary short is created current will be established killing the tank inhabitants but just probably faster than the toxic chemicals or copper compounds. Here you are dependant on the breaker.

d) GFCI and ground Probe installed: If a secondary short is created this will be same as 1d above, GFCI will trip reliving both the short circuit and disconnecting the power to the device probably preventing or reducing the damage by chemicals or copper. If no secondary short develops again you depend on the breaker.

Here again the safest alternative will be GFCI and ground probe installed although will not be effective if a secondary short to water is not established. Note that as mentioned above a short from hot to neutral may create a fire as the wires may get hot enough to initiate it.

There is a new device in the market that will replace the breaker and designed for this kind of fault. It is called an AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) This device will fulfill the functions of a breaker but while a breaker rely on the heat of the wires created by the short circuit which makes it slow an AFCI detects the arc on the short circuit acting immediately. For full protection under scenario 2 an AFCI in the main panel plus a GFCI in the outlet and a ground probe in the tank will provide for full protection.

Scenario 3: Short circuit from hot to a metal part of a non-submerged device and there is no current to trip the device as the metal body is not grounded:[B/] This is typical of a lighting fixture to whome one of the light bulb wires toches the reflector or the metalic hood or when some of the wiring of external pumps short to the pumps body and the body of the pump is not grounded.

a) No ground Probe and no GFCI installed: As the fault is external to the aquarium the aquarium does not get energized and no effect. If you touch the device depending on how well insulated from ground you are (rubber soles vs bare foot, globes vs bare hands etc) you may just get jolted or may get electrocuted.

b) GFCI installed but no ground probe: If you are touching the water and touch the device the GFCI will trip even if the short is within the external device. Typical of this fault is when a termial on a lamp in the hood gets shorted to the hood itself via salt creep. you are working in the water while you touch the hood with your arm or shoulder.

c) Ground probe and no GFCI: This is one of the the main reasons why probes shall not be installed unless a GFCI is also installed. The water will be perfectly grounded. If you are working in the water and touch the device you will get badly shocked or electrocuted even is you yourself are electrically insulated by the use of rubber soles or such.

d) Ground Probe and GFCI: GFCI will trip as soon as you touch the body of the device saving you once more.

For this scenario the safest will be 3b and 3d above. To make this a really safe situation: i) Use only devices installed with three prong plugs they usually ground the body using the third prong.
ii) Replace the plug and wire of any device to a three pong plug and connect the green wire to the body of the device. (The metal hood, the body of the ballast, the casing of the pump etc.)
Note that many power heads only use 2 prong plugs, if possible select one with three prongs. (Maxi jets used to have three prong wires and plugs but they were replaced with a lighter insulation wire and two prong plugs. It is still unclear to me why. Cost?, Did not want to potentially ground the water? Only they know)

Scenario 4: Short from hot to neutral or grounded body of an external device:[B/]

Under this scenario for all cases you will be dependant on the breaker. If the current is high but the breaker is slow on acting there might be a fire. The use of an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter instead of a breaker will reduce the fire possibility.

Scenario 5: Short from Neutral to water:[B/] As usually the neutral wire is grounded either at the outside were the wires enter the house or at the main nothing happens unless this neutral grounding is not perfect some small voltage may develop creating the following situation:

a) No GFCI and No Probe: nothing will happen, you may detect small voltage of the water to ground, if you touch the water you may feel a small shock if you are not insulated enough.

b) GFCI but no ground probe: if you touch the water and the voltage is high enough to generate at least 5 milliamps the GFCI will trip.

c) Ground probe but no GFCI: The small voltage may create a permanent small current, this may be enough to start killing the most sensitive critters, (Pods and Snails) and create coral RTN over long term.

d) GFCI and Ground Probe: same as 5b above. If the current is below 5 milliamps it may still create a small current which may affect the tank inhabitants but in a lesser degree given the smaller current level than 5c above.

So in summary overall the safest for the aquarist will be the installation of AFCI, GFCI and Ground Probe. The safest for the inhabitants will be AFCI and GFCI without ground probe. This is the reason why many aquarist do not use ground probes (but will always use GFCIs) specially traveling ones that stay away for extended periods of time. If you have a remote alarm system installed that may page you or send you an E-Mail in case of a fault (Like the aqua controller from Neptune Systems) you shall have no doubts and have your Probe installed with your GFCI's)

Opposite the most dangerous situation is not having at least a GFCI. By the way many states, city or county electrical codes require installation of GFCIs on any location where electrical equipment may be exposed to water like outdoors, kitchens, bathrooms, aquariums, spas etc. If this is the case and there is an accident or fire the insurance company MAY NOT PAY. so be warned.

I hope this long explanation may save some of us out there from at least a couple of jolts. By the way it is not smart (Trying to be nice an not saying plainly stupid) to use one-self as a test subject. I had a friend who got a small shock while testing a hood, he kept on shcocking himself trying to find out where the short was! Get a multi tester is you need to do this.

...stupid auto correct
 
jrbass

jrbass

Member
Well that was lengthy and somewhat informative to an electrician but a couple of things to add. From my experience putting a gfci downstream of a AFCI is not a good thing and will cause nuisance trips of the AFCI. I still feel that in all of the scenarios presented above the AFCI is the way to go but I still use a UPS on my MP10 so in case of issue it will run Circulation for a long time.
 
D

DaveK

Well-Known Member
One other point about GFCI and AFCI is that you you can get false trips of them, and they don't come back on by themselves. Over the years, I've lost almost my entire reef two times because they tripped when I was away on vacation. Because of this, I don't place the main return pump on GFCI or AFCI. I should point out that this is an external Iwaki pump, so nothing electrical is in the water itself.
 
S

swordstool

New Member
I got a BIG shock once. One of the hose returns into my tank wasn't secured properly (totally my fault), and when the hose popped out of the tank and started flowing directly onto the power strip, instead of unplugging the strip from the wall I grabbed the strip itself. BAD MISTAKE! Lesson learned.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top