actinic lighting

[NCguy]

Alaskan corals are deep water corals, very deep, there is barely even any blue light at their depths, they do not have algae living in their tissues.

Very deep water huh?Come on now...Do I REALLY need to post some pictures of Alaskan shallow water corals for you??? Your boat is sinking,get out while you can.

The difference between optimal and good health and growth is obviously pretty hard to put numbers on. Quality reef keeping usually means making many efforts to try to mimic nature because that is what the organisms have evolved into seeing as best. Doing what ever we want for viewing enjoyment is usually not considered making efforts to mimic nature.

Uhhh no sir..You said that my corals were "suffering" along with others who used moon lights because there wasn't complete darkness. NOT one time did you say anything about OPTIMAL growth and GOOD HEALTH.

I have nowhere near the education that you have nor the experience but I guess common sense goes a long way.

 

[NCguy]

I would like to apologize to you tubedood because I completely hijacked your thread. I will make it up to you...I'll dance at your next wedding.

 

[RyanG]

Why not do RED leds that will allow you to see into the tank and not be in the visible spectrum. Best of both worlds.

Lets just all get along. This is the peacable hippy type forum lets keep it that way please!

 

[fatman]

Very deep water huh?Come on now...Do I REALLY need to post some pictures of Alaskan shallow water corals for you??? Your boat is sinking,get out while you can.

This is the best link available on Alaskan Corals, you are more than welcome to look at it. A great abundance of deep water corals. I will not go so far as to say there are no polyps or such in shallow waters , but when referring to corals I usually am referring to stoney corals as do most professionals refer to them. I am quite sure if you just google Alaskan Corals what will come up is dozens of sites on deep water Alaskan corals.
http://www.afsc.noaa.gov/Publications/AFSC-TM/NOAA-TM-AFSC-146.pdf


Uhhh no sir..You said that my corals were "suffering" along with others who used moon lights because there wasn't complete darkness. NOT one time did you say anything about OPTIMAL growth and GOOD HEALTH.

If you do not have ultimate health and ultimate growth then your organisms are suffering. That is logic, pure and simple.

I have nowhere near the education that you have nor the experience but I guess common sense goes a long way.

I am sorry you do not have more education but it is available to anyone, all a person need to get an education is to be willing to learn. If you wish I can send you a lot of information on adults returning to school, and information on grants and student loans. The Universty system in Alaska is well known for its Marine Biology department. Ships come from all over the world to fish in Alaskan waters. I could even recommend some good text books and reference books on marine biology, aquatic water chemistry or other relevant topics. Experiences require time. I am sure you will grow old enough to gain some knowledge through your experiences if you are willing to learn. The odds say you will live to be over 80 years old.:flower:

I agree with Ryan. Red LED lights outside of the low nm wave lengths (actinic range) is likely a healthier choice LED lighting when used to extend the viewing time of a reef tanks inhabitants than blue LED lights that are in the actinic range.[/QUOTE]

 

[BigJay]

not to be argumentative but what about near shore corals along florida's Atlantic coast. Which receive constant shore lighting. Even the bridges have depths of 10-20 meters with bridge lights that run all night long and good coral growth. You also have beacon lights and boat traffic. Even a clear starry night can somewhat light the crystal clear waters. Matter of factly except for portions of the Florida keys I'd venture to say theres never total darkness on the reef.
My daughter's bicube came with the 2 blue moon leds and I bought a coralife timer set at 13 hours daylight and 11 hours night. When the timer kicks at night the entire reef instantly goes into night mode. The clown fish goes to his nesting corner, all the inverts almost immediately come out to play. I did notice something though at position of those leds cause almost no beaming effect. In other words its casting an a glow instead of a standard LEDs point lighting effect. I used one of my daughters single LED flashlights at night to find critters on the rocks but when hit diretly with that beam everything instantly reacts wether it been a fan worm , polyp or brittle star.

 

[fatman]

not to be argumentative but what about near shore corals along florida's Atlantic coast. Which receive constant shore lighting. Even the bridges have depths of 10-20 meters with bridge lights that run all night long and good coral growth. You also have beacon lights and boat traffic. Even a clear starry night can somewhat light the crystal clear waters. Matter of factly except for portions of the Florida keys I'd venture to say theres never total darkness on the reef.
My daughter's bicube came with the 2 blue moon leds and I bought a coralife timer set at 13 hours daylight and 11 hours night. When the timer kicks at night the entire reef instantly goes into night mode. The clown fish goes to his nesting corner, all the inverts almost immediately come out to play. I did notice something though at position of those leds cause almost no beaming effect. In other words its casting an a glow instead of a standard LEDs point lighting effect. I used one of my daughters single LED flashlights at night to find critters on the rocks but when hit diretly with that beam everything instantly reacts wether it been a fan worm , polyp or brittle star.

Shore lights, head lights from vehicles and boats as well as beacon lights are long wave length lighting which Fish and corals do not "see" and it does therefore not effect them and are not an issue in this matter. The issue is that short wave lingth lighting (actinic) is seen by corals and fish as sun light. Red light (incadescent etc.) is not seen by coral and marine fish in general. There is also high wave length blue which is not seen by coral and fish IE. black lights. They used to be used as night lighting bachk in the 70's in marine and the early 80's in reef tanks. Now they make colors pop, and the fish nor corals see them as daylight. White and nearly all blue LED's are small wave length lighting sources and are seen as daylight to marine organisms.

I have not at any time said that using actinic lighting will kill corals or tank inhabitants. I am saying having such a light sorce is not mimicing nature and is therefore worse for the welfare of the organisms than alternatives that are available. Quality moon lighting conytrols are available relatively cheaply as are RED LED's. Red may not be as pleasant for aquarist viewing but is better for the marine organisms, than unaltering constant actinic wave length moon lights. I have also not said that all LED blue lights are in the actinic wave lengths. The fact that all the major stores such as Marine Depot and Drs. Foster and Smith now offer moonlights in at least three colors shows that they recognize there is a problem and they are now offering alternatives to just blue or just white. The fact that they are trying to slide the reds in as reptile lights is just marketing poeople trying to save some face.

For all I know the blue bulbs they are now offering arel ong wavelength lighting. They do not release that information, nor do the release the LED manafacturers name. However the bulk of the LED's that are blue and on the market are small wavelength. They have also dropped the wattage appreciably since the first models of moon lights came out. The moonlights in my Aqualight Pros are all 5 watt Blue in the actinic range. The whites generally available are about 40 percent red and 60 percent blue actinic wave lengths..

Moon lighting is a method where by the moon cycles are replicated with controlled kighting, using it otherwise only benefits the retailer, and gives an aquarist more viewing time.

Eric Borneman (Bunk Reef Products)
I keep hoping a change is coming; that aquarists will begin to learn and understand that most aquarium products are based on profit and not science; and that deception abounds without fear of retribution, except the loss of some sales. Our hobby has progressed by leaps and bounds through the tireless sharing of information and aquarists' trials of products, methods and equipment. Sadly, these progressions have also incurred an untold number of animal losses and countless millions of dollars wasted on aquarium snake oils; products that have been around now for over 80 years. Is it not time for all of us to become skeptical aquarists and use the true knowledge we have gained and shared with each other, rather than buying into the product descriptions of marketed products with no proof of their claims? Perhaps it is time to convince appropriate agencies and veterinarians to adopt standards of protocols and quality for the products sold for marine ornamentals. I look forward to the day when we actually begin to learn lessons that could have begun at least as early as 1933. Mostly, I look forward to not being made physically sick by the time consuming, senseless and anecdotal debates that continue to pervade the hobby populace at large, so that we can make real steps forward and contribute to the advancement of husbandry and knowledge of species - for ourselves and others who study them, and to conserve them for a bright future for our hobby. Amen, Eric.



Planulation (Inducing Lunar Spawning through Luminence Periodicity)

Quote: Anthony Calfo (Book of Coral Propagation)
Artificial moonlight should illuminate the display at all times and is to be attenuated each day slightly to follow the lunar cycle (consult a calendar, almanac, et cetera). For aquarists interested in studying or exploiting planulation strategies in coral propagation, there is great pioneer work to be done in investigating the effects of replicating lunar cycles in aquaculture.

Quote: Martin Moe Jr. (The Marine Aquarium Reference)
The tank can be illuminated with a dull, red light that will allow full observation when one’s eyes become fully adapted. The animals in the tank due not recognize the red light as day and readily begin their nighttime activity in few view of the aquarist. A red incandescent light can be mounted over the tank and turned on as the tank lights go on and off, even better, a red, transparent plastic sleeve can be placed over a two or for foot cool white fluorescent bulb. Plankton feeding and night observation can then be done in late evening.

(Inducing Lunar Spawning through Luminence Periodicity)
./Reproduction/Coral/tyree_rhythms92

Moon Light Computer Link Below

Moon Computer

RED Moon Light Links Below

Current USA Lunar Light: Reptilian Red Moon Light (Saltwater Aquarium Supplies > Lighting > Fixtures > Moon Lights )

Aquarium Lunar Moon Lights: Lunar Lights

 

[BigJay]

You know I asked about black lights once , about 8-9 years ago, and was told that it would sunburn corals and to absolutely under no circumstance have one in a room with a reef tank. The moonlights on my tank make the greens really pop but don't ascunate the whites so I am guessing they are a lot bluer then black.
As far as using reds I am not sure why someone would waste the money or the eletricity. Frosted flakes has free LED indiana jones spoons with the spoon part removable for washing and it leaves you with a really nice spot single LED flashlight. I think they have green, red and yellow. The green and yellow are visible but the red is worthless for seeing anything and it seems to annoy the inverts in the tank not quite as bad as the yellow but they definetly still react.
Lots of links there I am gonna go through and check them out now, thanks. They say humans need 8 hours of total darkness for restorative rest but we all have vcrs and clocks. I might look into a true lunar phase light controller though,I'd think it would be essential for breeding , no?

 

[lcstorc]

What about the moon phases on the Solaris?
That is one of the things I like about it.

 

[Witfull]

or that moonlights be used that are set to mimic exactly or near to exactly the actual cycles of the moon to include the dimming of the moon lighting to mimic partial moon phases.

Lynn, the Solaris has this function~

 

[Woodstock]

That is a nice feature of the Solaris.
Most controllers (Neptune ACII, and Reefkeeper2, etc.) have the lunar cycle feature also.

Hey there folks... I asked this before in another post but it wasnt answered. Can I leave actinic on for late night viewing?

I would not keep the actinics on but a small LED light works well.
I keep a 1 watt blue LED on during the night hours.

 

[mps9506]

Anyone have any links to actual wavelength and intensity of moonlight at different phases. I don't care if it is at surface, 1 meter, 10 meters or 5,000 leagues. To be honest I'm not to worried about the fish, I have no doubt they can adapt, and I've seen some pretty freakin bright moons out on the water where I could walk around on the boat without any extra light. On the same token I've been out on some pretty pitch black scary nights on the boat as well.
Never done any night diving so I have no experience what it's like under the water at night.
But I'm sure there is some published data on wavelength and intensity of moonlight (something not published by a manufacturer ).

 

[tubedood]

Whew Im glad thats over LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Witfull]

I watched 20,000 leagues beneath the sea today...does that make me an expert?

 

[fatman]

The black lights are UV lighting, but are long wave length and quite low intensity and will not burn a person or marine organisms. Yes cycled (controlled lunar lighting will definitely effect the spawning cycles of marine fish and higher form invertebrates such as coral). Fish that commonly spawned just a few times each fall started spawning 4 to 6 times per year. Fish that were already breeding 4 times or more per year (such as clown fish) started breeding monthly. Corals were spawning 3 to 4 times per year under controlled lighting where previously they were not spawning at all.

You know I asked about black lights once , about 8-9 years ago, and was told that it would sunburn corals and to absolutely under no circumstance have one in a room with a reef tank. The moonlights on my tank make the greens really pop but don't ascunate the whites so I am guessing they are a lot bluer then black.
As far as using reds I am not sure why someone would waste the money or the eletricity. Frosted flakes has free LED indiana jones spoons with the spoon part removable for washing and it leaves you with a really nice spot single LED flashlight. I think they have green, red and yellow. The green and yellow are visible but the red is worthless for seeing anything and it seems to annoy the inverts in the tank not quite as bad as the yellow but they definetly still react.
Lots of links there I am gonna go through and check them out now, thanks. They say humans need 8 hours of total darkness for restorative rest but we all have vcrs and clocks. I might look into a true lunar phase light controller though,I'd think it would be essential for breeding , no?

 

[fatman]

Anyone have any links to actual wavelength and intensity of moonlight at different phases. I don't care if it is at surface, 1 meter, 10 meters or 5,000 leagues. To be honest I'm not to worried about the fish, I have no doubt they can adapt, and I've seen some pretty freakin bright moons out on the water where I could walk around on the boat without any extra light. On the same token I've been out on some pretty pitch black scary nights on the boat as well.
Never done any night diving so I have no experience what it's like under the water at night.
But I'm sure there is some published data on wavelength and intensity of moonlight (something not published by a manufacturer ).

I would just try googling under Eric Borneman or Stece Tyrell, maybe Shimek. Every thing I have always read has always just basically said to look at a lunar calendar or almanac and adjsut the light level based on the phase of the moon. As fae as wavelength, the light of a brightly lit night will be white light, a mixture of lights equal to noon daylight , but with less intensity. It is just reflected light so should be pretty much the same as typical sunlight. Some really *nal retentive coral growers go to extremes and have random generators installed on their computers programs that are controlling their tanks moonlights and are therefore supplying some nights (or portion of nights) of near total darkness to mimic over cast nights.

 

[NCguy]

Most marine orgainisms are taken from depths of meters, very often 10 meters or more. Not a matter of feet. There are not a lot of people keeping lagoonal specimens that actually come from shallow waters. In the marine trade 10 meters is considered shallow. Specimens for reef tanks come from 10 meters to 30 meters depths. Besides, look at graphs and charts and see how little light but blue penetrates beyond just a few meters.

I fail to see why you even wish to discuss very deep water fish when the discussuion is about corals fish tanks. Alaskan fish as do most fish only come near the surface for food. Very few fish actually chose to be siloeted by the sun as it makes them easy prey, or targets. Alaskan corals are deep water corals, very deep, there is barely even any blue light at their depths, they do not have algae living in their tissues. Nearly all fish in Alaska are dep water fish. THe nets, sringer lines and traps are not set or used in shallow awaters. Unless swimmers using mixed gases swimming down for them (fish or corals) they are typically only seen when deep sea trawlers bring them up in their traps/nets. Alaskan fishermen who sport fish use bvery large reals with extreme amounts of line on them. Alaskan corals are not dependant on sunlight as the are chiefly filter feeders and also utilize dissolved organics. Deep water fish and corals over a long period of evolution have adapted to a near absence of light, every where not just in Alaska.

Most coral fish (definitely not corals) never venture more than a few meters out of their territorries in their whole life spans. They do not swim through out the ocean and have not through evolution adapted to any changes in lighting etc. As do open ocean fish and zonal fish, from very deep depths.

If lighting was/is not an important issue with corals then there would be no multitude of tests on different bulbs and different lighting PAR, PUR and intensities. Periods of drakness is generally considered a common known fact that is beyond argument.
Skinner, a well known, actually famous man, in the field of mental health used to lock his own children in a closet without food and light and they had to perform different acts to get attention, food or to go to the bathroom. Some people would say that is OK, some people would say stressful at the least.

Any one can obviously do as they wish with their reef tanks, as unfortunitly there are not yet any licensing requirements involved in keeping them.

I am just repeating that knowledge that has come through study, work and research, not casual untested observation. Higher form invertebrates that are dependant on lighting need controlled moon lighting or complete darkness for optimum health and growth. The difference between optimal and good health and growth is obviously pretty hard to put numbers on. Quality reef keeping usually means making many efforts to try to mimic nature because that is what the organisms have evolved into seeing as best. Doing what ever we want for viewing enjoyment is usually not considered making efforts to mimic nature.

I fail to see why you even wish to discuss very deep water fish when the discussuion is about corals fish tanks.

LOL..Nobody was discussing deep water fish?!?! Are you drunk professor?
You went on this huge spill over deep water fish for what? We were talking about the led moon lights making my "reef inhabitants suffer" remember? Yoohoo...Earth to professor fatman. It is so funny when someone such as yourself is obviously trying to change his own words after he has been proven wrong.

I noticed the avoidance in your post to talk about the amount of daylight verses darkness where you live. (imagine that)That is understandable though because you had just uttered the words that reef inhabitants need 8 hours of complete darkness.It also doesn't surprise me at all that you were quick to change the subject and post links to deep water corals when "IN FACT" (since you only deal with facts) you were originally saying that "REEF INHABITANTS" were "SUFFERING" due to the lack of "COMPLETE DARKNESS".
I capitalized the words that you used there professor in case you forgot what you have said.
Also you said...

I am just repeating that knowledge that has come through study, work and research, not casual untested observation.

Really? If you don't mind, and if it's not too much trouble,could you point me in the direction of the study or work and research that was done on the "SUFFER OF THE HIGHER ORDER OF MARINE ORGANISM" if they don't receive "8 hours of complete darkness".

Now remember you just said that you repeat the knowlege that came from study,work and research.
You don't practice what you preach,do you?

As I already stated it is comical to watch you change your words and try to push a different meaning off when you have to eat your words.

If that doesn't top it all,you post links to Calfo who states that it's OK to use artifical moonlights!!! HELLO *tap tap tap* is this thing on?

Of course you decided to come back after you were asked about the reef inhabitants suffering through the seemingly endless number of daylight hours in Alaska and say that we should try to be "mimicing nature". Well maybe we are mimicing the very nature in which you live. (Alaska)
Once again the reef inhabitants seem to be doing fine there.

The fact that all the major stores such as Marine Depot and Drs. Foster and Smith now offer moonlights in at least three colors shows that they recognize there is a problem and they are now offering alternatives to just blue or just white.

Really? Where's that "study,work and research" link at to them recognizing that there was a problem? You only deal in "FACTS...STUDY...WORK...RESEARCH" remember?

I am just repeating that knowledge that has come through study, work and research, not casual untested observation.

Post THAT link when you're ready ok.

You contradict yourself in basically every post you make! Why even continue?

I have also not said that all LED blue lights are in the actinic wave lengths.

Yet earlier you said...

You would understand that LED moonlighting as it is commonly used and as I assume you recommend is entirely for the benefit of the viewing reefer and it is actually quite stessfu to the marine ocuppants. It is to much lighting in a spectrum which to them is daylight. The blue and the white moonlights used are both in the actinic wavelenghts. Would you like to spend 24 hours day every day in daylight.

No you didn't use the word "all" but it sure does look like you implied it doesn't it? It is too much lighting you said in which they see as daylight and it's stressful to them. But not where you live huh?

I would like to say that this post was in by no means everything that you contradicted yourself on but to be honest,we all have seen you say these things and once you were proven wrong decide to change your words around.

While you are offering help to a continuing adult education program with financial aid,maybe it would be best that you lead by example and seek further knowledge for yourself. In doing this, maybe it will help you to grow more as a person and realize that you too are sometimes wrong.It's ok to be wrong professor. Nobody thinks less of you for being wrong in this but your virtues and ethics are quite questionable when you try to weasel your way out.Passing your opinion off as "FACT,STUDY,WORK and RESEARCH" (as you stated that you only repeat...but obviously not) is nothing more than a childish attempt at hoping others will see you as more than you really are.
The "FACT" is....It's really quite sad.

 

[NCguy]

I watched 20,000 leagues beneath the sea today...does that make me an expert?

Bawahahahahaha....Why yes it does...Didn't you see all of the "suffering higher order of marine inhabitants" there that my LED moon lights were causing?

 

[Witfull]

to use the "quote" he said as an altruistic definitive is the demise of the typed word. all to often the meaning is lost when when a typed summation is presented. anyone can disect and edit a statement or part of a statement to fit or disreguard a comment. but when taken as a whole the context must bear weight.


neither of the involved are scientists, nor are the subject of the study discussed. also, the useage of terminology as "non-scientifics" is subject to discussion.

the usage of "suffer" appears to be in debate, as to the degree. yes, as a human, i suffer sleep issues if the wife leaves the TV on as i sleep. it causes "disturbed sleep. do fish suffer this? who knows. they might~

 

[fatman]

OI only brought up Alaskan fisheries be cause you insisted that Alaska be brought into the argument. Alaska is a deep water fishery as are its corals.
Anthony Calfo recommends controlled moon lighting.
I seeming am jumping around beacuse I am respondo=ing to your many jumps and stabs to win an unwinnable argument. There is nothing to win or lose in this discussion. I am stating facts but you just appear to be trying to antagonize and are obviously not trying to learn from this exchange. If it is just your desire to discredit me then I can send you a few professional publications I have produced and you can try to understand or refute them.
I am finished with this subject.

 

[NCguy]

You're finished with this subject...yeah... I brought up Alaska because you said that reef inhabitants need 8 hours of complete darkness or they were being stressed.Have you not caught on to this yet? Noone said that this was an argument..I thought we were trying to decide whether the use of moon lighting was harmful.