High nitrates / phosphates

Jayne51

New Member
Hi - I have had my tank running for a few months now - 100L. I am loving it and despite reading so much before I started, realise I know very little - learning lots more from reading through forum questions though. My main issue I have at the moment is trying to reduce my nitrates and phosphates. Ammonia and Nitrites are 0. I have done a few large water changes over the last 2 weeks but is it not reducing much. I have a skimmer running and I use filter floss plus bioholme. I don't really want to add any chemicals but do I need to? Thanks for reading :)
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
Please tell us about your system. Keep in mind that statements like "I have done a few large water changes over the last 2 weeks but is it not reducing much." do not convey any information because we don't know how large the water change was or what the before and after values were.

What are your exact nitrate and phosphate readings? (both before and after the water changes)
How large were your water changes?

What live stock do you have in the tank and how large is each fish?
How often and what do you feed?
How much live rock and live sand do you have in the tank?

What is your source of water for mixing new SW?
What kind of filtration do you have on the system?
Are you using a skimmer and if so, what brand and model is it?
What filter media are you using?

You should be able to correct nitrate and phosphate problems with out chemical additives as such, but you may need different filter media and need to some changes to your system and how you run it.
 

Jayne51

New Member
Hi DaveK - thank you for your reply. These are the answers to your questions:-

System is - 1 x Kent Marine Bio Reef 94l Aquarium
6 x 1 Watt Marine White & 4 x 0.5 Watt blue
1 x 2000 litre per hour flow rate wave maker pump
1 x Kent Marine Nano skimmer
1 x 1000 litre per hour circulation pump
1 x heater in heater chamber
plus I bought an extra wave maker pump
10 Kilo live rock (uncured when I got it)
Approx 2" sand bed (not live sand).
I cycled the tank for approx 5 weeks before adding any cuc

I took out everything in the back chambers apart from the skimmer and heater. I have put filter floss in the first chamber (although I have read that this could increase nitrates?) which I change every other day. Bioholme pellets in the second chamber (only had those in a week and I know they will take time to build bacteria) Third chamber skimmer. Fourth chamber is the return pump.

I have 2 clowns, 1 royal Gramma and a red banded wheeler shrimp goby/yellow pistol shrimp plus the usual cuc. I have a few mixed corals as well that all seem to be doing well.

I use RO water from my LFS and either mix my own with Kent salt mix or buy ready mixed saltwater from my LFS.

I have done 3 x 25% water changes in the last week / 10 days but results stay the same.

Parameters are:-
Salinity 1.026
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
Phosphates 0.20 (P04)
PH 8.1
Temp 26.7

I feed about 1/3 of a frozen mixed marine food daily (missing the occasional day out) - I defrost this in tank water and then rinse it in RO before adding to the tank.

Any help / advice would be appreciated.
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
I don't see anything obviously wrong in your setup.

Those three 25% water changes should have dropped nitrates and phosphates by about half.

If those reading went down but them came back up, we'd look at feeding, and the filtration system, but this doesn't seem to be happening in your case.

So, we look at several factors with the water. The next time you change your water, test the new water before you make the water change, and test the tank before you make the water change. Then test your tank about an hour after the water change.

In you see any large nitrate or phosphate readings at all with the new water, then it means the source of your water is bad. You may want to invest in your own RO/DI system, and make your own water.

If you see everything reading about the same, you may have a bad test kit. Some brands don't work too well, others are past their useful date, even if they don't have an expire date on them. Have your LFS test nitrite and phosphate too since that can help you determine if you have a bad test kit.

Sometimes live rock and live sand can absorb nitrates and phosphates, and then with the water changes leach it back. This could be happening to you also. About all you can do here is keep up the water changes and the readings will usually drop over time.

There are some very drastic methods that can be use with live rock, but they are no a good choice, unless you get to the point where nothing else can be done.
 

Rini

Well-Known Member
Just want to share my way how I control it. To keep my nitrate and phosphate under control im using red sea no3-po4-x in short nopox. My tank is 250 liter.
 

PCDS

Active Member
When I first started, I also bought RO water from my LFS but it is much easier when you have your own RO/DI unit. If you get a TDS monitor with it you can make sure you change the filters and membranes when necessary and keep the water quality good. Make sure you are using food safe water containers.
Your tank is still relatively new and is probably still adapting to your bio load. Anaerobic bacterial growth takes time.
The hardest thing for me is to resist the temptation to over feed.
 

Jayne51

New Member
Yes - I worry that I am underfeeding - I feed 1/3 cube which by the time its rinsed gives each fish a few bits each - anything that does reach the sand is very quickly gobbled by my large fire shrimp. Do you think that is about the right amount for 2 clowns, a royal gramma and a goby?
 

PCDS

Active Member
Yes - I worry that I am underfeeding - I feed 1/3 cube which by the time its rinsed gives each fish a few bits each - anything that does reach the sand is very quickly gobbled by my large fire shrimp. Do you think that is about the right amount for 2 clowns, a royal gramma and a goby?
That doesn't seem too much. Other things to consider is places with low flow were detritus can collect, depth of sand bed, any filter media you use, and nitrates in the ready mixed water from the lfs. I haven't got my nitrates were I want it either by the way. It is still over 10, but is improving.
 

Jayne51

New Member
I did a 25% water change yesterday with 0 TDS. My salt water mix was 0-2 nitrates and 0 phosphates. After the water change my nitrate dropped to 15 and phosphates 0.12 - I have just tested today (I fed 1/3 frozen cube defrosted and rinsed with RO last night plus a few pods again rinsed in RO) - just tested this morning - nitrates down to 10 but phosphates up to 0.16 ???? What am I doing wrong? Do phosphates adjust at different times of day? Very frustrating!
 

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nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
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SantaMonicaHelp

RS Sponsor
I hope that this little bit of info might help:

Nutrient Export

What do all algae (and cyano too) need to survive? Nutrients. What are nutrients? Ammonia/ammonium, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate and urea are the major ones. Which ones cause most of the algae in your tank? These same ones. Why can't you just remove these nutrients and eliminate all the algae in your tank? Because these nutrients are the result of the animals you keep.

So how do your animals "make" these nutrients? Well a large part the nutrients comes from pee (urea). Pee is very high in urea and ammonia, and these are a favorite food of algae and some bacteria. This is why your glass will always need cleaning; because the pee hits the glass before anything else, and algae on the glass consume the ammonia and urea immediately (using photosynthesis) and grow more. In the ocean and lakes, phytoplankton consume the ammonia and urea in open water, and seaweed consume it in shallow areas, but in a tank you don't have enough space or water volume for this, and, your other filters or animals often remove or kill the phytoplankton or seaweed anyway. So, the nutrients stay in your tank.

Then, the ammonia/ammonium hits your rocks, and the periphyton on the rocks consumes more ammonia and urea. Periphyton is both algae and animals, and is the reason your rocks change color after a few weeks from when they were new. Then the ammonia goes inside the rock, or hits your sand, and bacteria there convert it into nitrite and nitrate. However, the nutrients are still in your tank.

Also let's not forget phosphate, which comes from solid organic food particles. When these particles are eaten by microbes and clean up crews, the organic phosphorus in them is converted into phosphate. However, the nutrients are still in your tank.

So whenever you have algae or cyano "problems", you simply have not exported enough nutrients out of your tank compared to how much you have been feeding (note: live rock can absorb phosphate for up to a year, making it seem like there was never a problem. Then after a year, there is a problem).

So just increase your nutrient exports. You could also reduce feeding, and this has the same effect, but it's certainly not fun when you want to feed your animals :)

Good luck!

SF

The new HOG, SURF and DROP scrubbers® from www.Santa-Monica.cc

 

MatroxD

Active Member
I hope that this little bit of info might help:

Nutrient Export

What do all algae (and cyano too) need to survive? Nutrients. What are nutrients? Ammonia/ammonium, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate and urea are the major ones. Which ones cause most of the algae in your tank? These same ones. Why can't you just remove these nutrients and eliminate all the algae in your tank? Because these nutrients are the result of the animals you keep.

So how do your animals "make" these nutrients? Well a large part the nutrients comes from pee (urea). Pee is very high in urea and ammonia, and these are a favorite food of algae and some bacteria. This is why your glass will always need cleaning; because the pee hits the glass before anything else, and algae on the glass consume the ammonia and urea immediately (using photosynthesis) and grow more. In the ocean and lakes, phytoplankton consume the ammonia and urea in open water, and seaweed consume it in shallow areas, but in a tank you don't have enough space or water volume for this, and, your other filters or animals often remove or kill the phytoplankton or seaweed anyway. So, the nutrients stay in your tank.

Then, the ammonia/ammonium hits your rocks, and the periphyton on the rocks consumes more ammonia and urea. Periphyton is both algae and animals, and is the reason your rocks change color after a few weeks from when they were new. Then the ammonia goes inside the rock, or hits your sand, and bacteria there convert it into nitrite and nitrate. However, the nutrients are still in your tank.

Also let's not forget phosphate, which comes from solid organic food particles. When these particles are eaten by microbes and clean up crews, the organic phosphorus in them is converted into phosphate. However, the nutrients are still in your tank.

So whenever you have algae or cyano "problems", you simply have not exported enough nutrients out of your tank compared to how much you have been feeding (note: live rock can absorb phosphate for up to a year, making it seem like there was never a problem. Then after a year, there is a problem).

So just increase your nutrient exports. You could also reduce feeding, and this has the same effect, but it's certainly not fun when you want to feed your animals :)

Good luck!

SF

The new HOG, SURF and DROP scrubbers® from www.Santa-Monica.cc

Interesting take, especially on the ammonia.. I think I am going to try something that I had been putting off.. Funny thing is that I had been thinking about ammonia for a while recently and how much the animals secrete it.. Thanks for the insight...

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