Can't seem to shake this HA problem... Experts enter

[Lee]

I've been battling Hair Algae for a couple years now across two separate tanks. I have tried virtually everything that has been suggested to me and I'm just stumped.

Every time I post a thread like this, I get lots of generic answers about doing water changes, skimming, using RO water, feeding less, etc. I've been through most of the conventional suggestions, so I'm listing every piece of relevant information possible below, so please read through the whole post before spending a bunch of time on a response that might not apply.

I'm about 8 years into the saltwater aquarium hobby, and I work in an industry where water chemistry is integral to our business, so I consider myself to be advanced. Not as advanced as many/most of you here perhaps, but I've got a lot of knowledge and experience in this area.

Here is what I have, the current tank is about 20 months old:

tanks:
-125g display, mostly FOWLER (+1 coral, 1 anemone)
-29 gallon sump w/skimmer and return portion
-20 gallon refugium w/DSB, LR, small chunk of Cheato and some Culerpa strands

DT Livestock:
-150-200 lbs of LR
-Blue Hippo Tang, Yellow Tang, Snowflake Eel, Occelaris Clown, 6-line Wrasse, Coral Beauty Angel, Anemone, plate coral
-15 Turbo snails, ~100 misc snails
-thin (>1") sandbed

Feeding schedule:
-feedings every-other-day, once.
-variety of frozen cubes, cyclopeeze
-feed either 1/2 or 1 full cube, every other day

Salt & water changes:
-Instant Ocean Reef Crystals, mixed to 1.025
-30 gallon (20%) water changes approximately every 14-21 days

Other additives:
-Kent Purple Tech (since 8/2013)
-Kent dKH buffer (since 11/2013)
-occasional marine algecide treatments
-occasional Chemiclean treatments

DT Lights:
-84 3 watt Philips Luxeon LED lights
-42 Neutral White, 42 Royal Blue
-Lights run 6:30pm - 2:00am (7.5 hours/day)

Fuge Lights:
-Single incandescent 60watt bulb
-Runs approx 10 hours/day opposite DT lights

Equipment:
-Skimmer: Reef Octopus Diablo XS 160
-GFO reactor
-4 Hydor Koralia fans in DT

Water source:
-(2) AWI RODI filters, RO water stored in 55 gallon drum
-RODI filters/resin canisters changed annually
-Membrane changed bi-annually

RODI water parameters:
pH= <6.8
alk= 0.6 dKH
Nitrate= 0ppm
Phosphate= 0ppm
TDS= 2ppm

DT Water parameters:
pH= 7.8
alk=9.3 dKH
Ammonia= 0ppm
Nitrite= 0ppm
NitrAte= 0ppm
Phosphate =0ppm
Salinity= 1.025
Calcium= >500ppm (probably closer to 800ppm)
Magnesium= ? (unknown)


So...


Considering the above water parameters, considering that my tank is NOT overstocked, I do NOT overfeed, I have a $350 skimmer, my tank has NO nitrates in it, my tank has NO phosphates in it, my lights are NOT on too long, my source water does NOT have any excess nutrients in it, how the ****ing **** is it that my tank looks like this?

My Koralia fans get so full of algae that they have an extreme vacuum on the areas that AREN'T covered in algae; so much so, that my 8" Blue Hippo tang got STUCK to the side of the fan today! He's probably going to die.

Furthermore, I removed and scrubbed down EVERY piece of LR in the entire tank about 3-4 months ago, so what you see now is the REgrowth in that short span of time.

Here's what it looked like BEFORE I scrubbed down every single rock:

I just don't understand... Algae requires nutrients and light. My tank has zero excess nutrients and minimal light. My lights are extremely powerful. The LED's are only 1.5 years old; they don't wear out like T5-HO. I could literally house SPS if I wanted to.

Up until about 1 week ago, my Alkalinity was about a 6.5 dKH, so I started adding an Alk buffer, now its in the 9's. I know there is a correlation between low Alk and hair algae, but come on... I'm running a skimmer, GFO, fuge with cheato, 200lbs of LR, RODI, a bunch of Turbo Snails, and minimal feedings & light. I should NOT have rampant hair algae!

What am I missing? The only thing I'm not testing for is Magnesium. Somebody please give me something that I/we haven't thought of...

 

[Kremlin]

huh. turbo snail cleaned my tank of all hair algae.

 

[Lee]

*notes:

I did try an Algae Scrubber from Santa Monica but for some reason, I really wasn't able to grow much on it. It grew nothing for months; I think it was a compatibility issue with my refugium? Not really sure. But now the lights don't work; I think the transformer died or something. I don't really want to buy another one since I've already tried it

 

[Lee]

huh. turbo snail cleaned my tank of all hair algae.

I've had about 15-20 turbo snails in the tank for probably 5 months. They didn't put a dent in it, so I removed every piece of rock and manually removed the HA (all 200 pounds of it, big project) but it has been growing back and the snails aren't really doing much to control the HA.

They probably help a bit, but they can't manage it on their own clearly

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

if it helps any... here is a post I read from one I consider an expert... Randy Holmes Farley - when asked... Is there anything I can do to defeat HA, I have tried everything...Ammonia: 0, Nitrites: 0, Nitrates: 0 Tested with 2 kits including Salifert, Phosphates: just a trace with red sea, no trace with salifert, alk: 8 dkh

Randy's reply was... below

Exporting nutrients, most especially phosphate (regardless of measured levels) usually is the best option. Rapidly growing microalgae can keep the phosphate down as it sucks it up, but stealing it away from the algae can reduce the algae problem considerably.

I'd use GFO (an iron based binder of some type) to export the phosphate, at least in the short term.

and a related article he wrote...
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/

hopefully others might can offer some advise that know more... with ideas you have not already tried...

best of luck defeating it !

When I read Randy saying "regardless of measured levels" to me this meant, our testing can be off because the algae is using up elements we are testing for... see if others agree...

 

[reefle]

10000 lettuce nudis....

jkjk

but that thing really grinds my algae

I just wanted to say I'm new to reefing, but I've read a bunch of your articles and I'm a HUGE fan of your work! I havent seen a post from you since 2012 so I'm pretty starstruck to see you on here

 

[Mike Johnson]

It's quite the coincidence that Glenn stated the same thing I was going to say. But, let's get down to the nitty gritty of this - I know you're frustrated with it.

First, I'd like to know what the "algaecide treatments" consists of. And, Chemiclean? Because you're having problems with Red Slime Algae?

What type of GFO do you use? What kind of reactor? And, what type of pump to run it? How much GFO do you use and how often do you change it?

If you answer these questions I'm sure we can come up with a solution?

One thing I can tell you right now is you need to step up the water changes. I'd suggest 15 gallon water changes every week to start. That's based on 100 gallons of actual water.

I'd also state that there isn't a pump made (that wouldn't blow all the water out of your tank) that can suck a healthy 8" Blue Hippo Tang to it.

I can also state without any further info that measuring magnesium is very important. You wouldn't have problems with low alkalinity, high calcium, and who knows what magnesium if you would do water changes like I suggested.

Right now I would stop using any type of algaecide, chemiclean, Kent Purple Tech, and Kent dKH buffer. I'd change that 60 watt incandescent bulb with a 6500k florescent bulb.

The Kent Purple Tech and Kent dKH buffer is what is driving up you calcium. And most likely you have very low magnesium which is fueling the algae growth. All of these things can be fixed by weekly 15% water changes.

I'll give you more information when you answer the questions about the GFO.

 

[PSU4ME]

Two good posts above. Ill also throw out there that your ro/di water should be zero ideally. I change my filters every 6 months and my di resin every 3 months to keep mine at 0.

In your 55 gallon drum, what tds does your holding water measure?

And lastly, what kind of live rock did you use...... If it is dry rock then that can be a source of leaching nutrients. I've heard of " bad batches" before.

 

[Lee]

if it helps any... here is a post I read from one I consider an expert... Randy Holmes Farley - when asked... Is there anything I can do to defeat HA, I have tried everything...Ammonia: 0, Nitrites: 0, Nitrates: 0 Tested with 2 kits including Salifert, Phosphates: just a trace with red sea, no trace with salifert, alk: 8 dkh

Randy's reply was... below

Exporting nutrients, most especially phosphate (regardless of measured levels) usually is the best option. Rapidly growing microalgae can keep the phosphate down as it sucks it up, but stealing it away from the algae can reduce the algae problem considerably.

I'd use GFO (an iron based binder of some type) to export the phosphate, at least in the short term.

and a related article he wrote...
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/

hopefully others might can offer some advise that know more... with ideas you have not already tried...

best of luck defeating it !

When I read Randy saying "regardless of measured levels" to me this meant, our testing can be off because the algae is using up elements we are testing for... see if others agree...

I've been running GFO for about 5 months now

I've got a dedicated reactor pulling water in from the same chamber as the skimmer and it outputs the water in the sump return chamber. I change the GFO every 3-4 weeks

 

[Lee]

10000 lettuce nudis....

jkjk

but that thing really grinds my algae

I just wanted to say I'm new to reefing, but I've read a bunch of your articles and I'm a HUGE fan of your work! I havent seen a post from you since 2012 so I'm pretty starstruck to see you on here

Are you confusing me with Aaron Rodgers?

 

[Lee]

It's quite the coincidence that Glenn stated the same thing I was going to say. But, let's get down to the nitty gritty of this - I know you're frustrated with it.

First, I'd like to know what the "algaecide treatments" consists of. And, Chemiclean? Because you're having problems with Red Slime Algae?

What type of GFO do you use? What kind of reactor? And, what type of pump to run it? How much GFO do you use and how often do you change it?

I have this exact BRS reactor kit with this MJ1200 pump (it was all bundled). I use this GFO and change it pretty frequently, like every 3-4 weeks. I'm pretty much following BRS's instructions to the letter on use, except I do change the media more frequently.

If you answer these questions I'm sure we can come up with a solution?

You would win the most awesome person of the year award if we do!

One thing I can tell you right now is you need to step up the water changes. I'd suggest 15 gallon water changes every week to start. That's based on 100 gallons of actual water.

I prefer larger (30 gallon) WC's closer to bi-weekly, but if you think it would help, I'm certainly willing to try it

What's your thinking behind that? Isn't the point of a water change to dilute excess nutrients and replenish trace elements? I'm adding trace elements via buffer and my nutrients are measuring at zero. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when my nitrates always read zero, it almost feels like WC's are just spinning my wheels...

I'd also state that there isn't a pump made (that wouldn't blow all the water out of your tank) that can suck a healthy 8" Blue Hippo Tang to it.

Well he was pretty old (died today) but always seemed healthy. Big eater, big swimmer, perfect color, varied diet, etc. He's shaped like a pancake. If enough of the pump inlet was blocked, that could create a pretty strong vacuum if a fish was slapped over it. And it is a big pump; Koralia magnum, like 2,000gph

I can also state without any further info that measuring magnesium is very important. You wouldn't have problems with low alkalinity, high calcium, and who knows what magnesium if you would do water changes like I suggested.

Ok. I plan to order a magnesium test kit. I stopped at my LFS and they didn't have anything for Mag

Right now I would stop using any type of algaecide, chemiclean, Kent Purple Tech, and Kent dKH buffer. I'd change that 60 watt incandescent bulb with a 6500k florescent bulb.

The Kent Purple Tech and Kent dKH buffer is what is driving up you calcium. And most likely you have very low magnesium which is fueling the algae growth. All of these things can be fixed by weekly 15% water changes.

I'll give you more information when you answer the questions about the GFO.

Ok that's all very interesting. I'll change the fuge light, no problem.

Regarding the supplements:
I was finding that my Alk was in the mid 6's (dKH), hence the dKH buffer, and the purple tech; my thinking was that rock covered in coraline doesn't really grow nuisance algae as much.

The algaecide was/is used when I need to get a handle on the HA. It literally overgrows everything, and there is almost no way to remove it, short of literally removing and scrubbing each rock. Which creates a mini-cycle, diatom bloom, nasty orange dead algae, etc. Its a big mess to deal with once its there.

I haven't used the Chemiclean in a few months. Before the GFO, I used to get bad algae on the glass and slime on the sand, but the GFO has pretty much eliminated that. Now all I have is HA everywhere, including sand, glass, pumps, etc.

*edit*
One more thought about the Purple Tech & dKH buffer: I only started using the buffer a week ago and the Purple Tech about a month ago. This HA problem has been going on for over a year

 

[Lee]

Two good posts above. Ill also throw out there that your ro/di water should be zero ideally. I change my filters every 6 months and my di resin every 3 months to keep mine at 0.

In your 55 gallon drum, what tds does your holding water measure?

And lastly, what kind of live rock did you use...... If it is dry rock then that can be a source of leaching nutrients. I've heard of " bad batches" before.

TDS was holding at 002. The filters and resin are only a few months old. I changed them over the summer. And the membranes are both about 18 months old.

is 2ppm really a concern?

Most of my LR has been with my tanks for the past 8 years. Its mostly Fiji premium from Fosters & Smith.

Regardless, I'm really having a tough time buying the "excess nutrients" line, because they just aren't there. I'm not putting them in the tank, and they're not being measured. And I also have a tough time buying the "they aren't measurable because the algae is eating them." I had tanks with RAMPANT Hair Algae and Nitrates in the 20's. You can have both algae and nitrates.

 

[Mike Johnson]

It's late so I'll address just a couple things.

As an example, I have a tank that grows algae like crazy. I have no nitrate reduction of any kind on that tank, except a skimmer. I use that algae to feed my tang a little at a time. When I test that tank it comes out zeros. I test my reef tank, with a couple nitrate reduction methods, and get a low reading. That tank is fed heavily, but there is no nuisance algae. So, yes, it is very possible to have zero readings and actually have high phosphate and nitrate. Growing algae is a very effective means of nutrient reduction.

The reasoning behind the weekly water changes is I've been where you are. It is very possible that the hair algae is growing because of an excess of detritus. So, when you do the water changes use a 3/8" hard tube inserted into a 1/2" clear hose and vacuum all the hair algae and rocks with it. And any grey dust that you see around the edges of the rocks. About four weeks of doing this, along with some manual removal and you'll see a big difference.

I'm glad you're using the BRS GFO/carbon reactor because I do to. I find that it is best to use half of the GFO/carbon BRS recommends and change it out every two weeks. When it is filled, with the sponges pushed to the top, it's only half full.

IMO the purple tech is raising your calcium up, which lowers you alkalinity. One of the first things you'll notice with the weekly water changes is an increased growth of coralline algae.

You can have a beautiful tank in just over a month if you'll concentrate on detritus removal, water changes, changing your GFO every two weeks, and siphoning out the algae during water changes. Good luck.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I have a little saying that I guess I haven't used in awhile, "dead algae = detritus = more algae". It's a vicious cycle. When the GFO starts to starve the hair algae it will get dust all over it - detritus = algae.The best time to syphon your tank is just before lights out.

Another question I have is how deep is your sand bed? A sandbed between 1 - 3 inches can contribute greatly to algae growth.

 

[Lee]

It's late so I'll address just a couple things.

As an example, I have a tank that grows algae like crazy. I have no nitrate reduction of any kind on that tank, except a skimmer. I use that algae to feed my tang a little at a time. When I test that tank it comes out zeros. I test my reef tank, with a couple nitrate reduction methods, and get a low reading. That tank is fed heavily, but there is no nuisance algae. So, yes, it is very possible to have zero readings and actually have high phosphate and nitrate. Growing algae is a very effective means of nutrient reduction.

I believe you that its possible, (to have zeroes across the board and still grow algae because of excessive nutrients) but I just don't know where they are coming from. Its hard to feed any less than I do already. I have like 5 fish, and I've got multiple nitrate/phosphate reduction systems in place; high powered skimmer, GFO, refugium (cheato/cualerpa). I just don't know where the nutrients are coming from.

The reasoning behind the weekly water changes is I've been where you are. It is very possible that the hair algae is growing because of an excess of detritus.

Sounds absolutely nuts, but you're offering help, and I'm going to try it.

Isn't there a product or machine I can simply buy to reduce detritus? Thought a skimmer would do that. (I prefer to buy my way out of problems like this)

So, when you do the water changes use a 3/8" hard tube inserted into a 1/2" clear hose and vacuum all the hair algae and rocks with it. And any grey dust that you see around the edges of the rocks. About four weeks of doing this, along with some manual removal and you'll see a big difference.

I actually just removed and scrubbed every rock in the tank, so the HA is currently about 98% removed. This is the 2nd time I've done this in the past 4-5 months. I know I'm going to get a wicked diatom bloom in a few days here, but that HA has to come out some time. Now I've just got to keep it GONE!

I'm glad you're using the BRS GFO/carbon reactor because I do to. I find that it is best to use half of the GFO/carbon BRS recommends and change it out every two weeks. When it is filled, with the sponges pushed to the top, it's only half full.

I put in like 1.5 cups, no sponge, and adjust the stopcock to a point where the GFO just tumbles gently.

IMO the purple tech is raising your calcium up, which lowers you alkalinity. One of the first things you'll notice with the weekly water changes is an increased growth of coralline algae.

Hmmm... well I'm pretty sure I had lower than desired alkalinity long before I started using the Purple Tech. I'm going to test my salt-mixed RODI water for alkalinity and let you know the results. If they are above 8 dKH, then frequent enough water changes should raise the DT's alk level enough to skip the buffer.

Basically you're saying that the purple tech (dropping alk) and the buffer (raising alk) can all be avoided by more frequent water changes...

You can have a beautiful tank in just over a month if you'll concentrate on detritus removal, water changes, changing your GFO every two weeks, and siphoning out the algae during water changes. Good luck.

I really appreciate your responses.

 

[Lee]

I have a little saying that I guess I haven't used in awhile, "dead algae = detritus = more algae". It's a vicious cycle. When the GFO starts to starve the hair algae it will get dust all over it - detritus = algae.The best time to syphon your tank is just before lights out.

Ah, that's good to know.

I need to figure out a better way to clean my tank during WC's. I only have back access, since the front is built into a wall, so I can't see what I'm doing. Makes aquascaping a *****.

Another question I have is how deep is your sand bed? A sandbed between 1 - 3 inches can contribute greatly to algae growth.

Its extremely shallow. Like less than one inch.

The Fuge has a deep sand bed, like 3-4 inches.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Ah, that's good to know.

I need to figure out a better way to clean my tank during WC's. I only have back access, since the front is built into a wall, so I can't see what I'm doing. Makes aquascaping a ****

Its extremely shallow. Like less than one inch.

The Fuge has a deep sand bed, like 3-4 inches.

Wow. Beautiful built-in tank.

 

[Lee]

Thanks

More in the build thread:
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...g-basement-bar-wall-tank-leds-etc-begins.html

final pictures on page 9

 

[Mike Johnson]

If you prefer to "buy your way out" hire someone for an hour a week to siphon out your water changes. (Just kidding). My wife thought it was funny.

 

[Lee]

If you prefer to "buy your way out" hire someone for an hour a week to siphon out your water changes. (Just kidding). My wife thought it was funny.

Haha, I would love to, but I forgot to mention the one caveat: I never hire anyone to do anything. Just some weird stubborn issue of mine