I came back from the lfs with Blue Vet Rx Phosphate Control Liquid, instead of Kent Phosphate Sponge or PhosBan. Does anyone have any experience with this stuff? On the surface, seems like a good idea - a few drops each day and testing to see the effect, but it's the first liquid I've seen for Phosphate reduction, so thought it was worth checking into....
Phosphate Control
- Thread starter Mattfish
- Start date
I think Boomer will weigh in on this, should be a thread "over there" but I scooped this up "elsewhere"
> This could be some chemical compound which creates insoluble
> phosphates which then will be removed by the filters or collect
> with detritus on your sump floor... They mention clouding...
> So some precipitation of insoluble material occurs for sure.
> I think it is similar to iron based phosban but in a liquid form.
>
> You could ask the manufacturer what the active ingredient is
> and then it would be more clear how the product works and what you really
> add to the water column. This would be important to
> avoid known problems caused with aluminium based phosphate removers.
Thought I'd try the seller first...one more to go...
Hello Chris,
Thank you for your e-mail. I am sorry but I do not know the
scientific break down on how exactly this item is effective. I think it
would be best if you were to contact the manufacture and speak with their
technical support team so you can get the information you are looking for.
Blue Life, 888 895 2583.
Thanks again for contacting us. Please let us know if there is anything else
we can do for you.
> This could be some chemical compound which creates insoluble
> phosphates which then will be removed by the filters or collect
> with detritus on your sump floor... They mention clouding...
> So some precipitation of insoluble material occurs for sure.
> I think it is similar to iron based phosban but in a liquid form.
>
> You could ask the manufacturer what the active ingredient is
> and then it would be more clear how the product works and what you really
> add to the water column. This would be important to
> avoid known problems caused with aluminium based phosphate removers.
Thought I'd try the seller first...one more to go...
Hello Chris,
Thank you for your e-mail. I am sorry but I do not know the
scientific break down on how exactly this item is effective. I think it
would be best if you were to contact the manufacture and speak with their
technical support team so you can get the information you are looking for.
Blue Life, 888 895 2583.
Thanks again for contacting us. Please let us know if there is anything else
we can do for you.
I looked again carefully at the packaging - found their web site, and here's the url to the product:
Phosphate Control: Blue Life USA
Reading it now.... didn't see the url on the box when I first looked.....
Phosphate Control: Blue Life USA
Reading it now.... didn't see the url on the box when I first looked.....
The company's web site certainly seems to imply some new ideas and a sense of responsibility - I'll know tomorrow if the Phosphate control is doing any good, but the phosphate level definitely explains why we're getting more algae on the sides of the tank....
We switched to an RO unit from an RO/DI unit (long and stupid story), which then took us from 0 ppm water to 35 ppm water. The tap water here, by comparison, is 235 ppm... so basically unusable for the tank without some conditioning.
We switched to an RO unit from an RO/DI unit (long and stupid story), which then took us from 0 ppm water to 35 ppm water. The tap water here, by comparison, is 235 ppm... so basically unusable for the tank without some conditioning.
heres a link to the "gluing of gills by aluminum" now Mike has A LOT of gills so should READ CAREFULLY lol (B made me do it )
Chemistry and the Aquarium
Chemistry and the Aquarium
Boomer
Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
Well, I just got back from IMAC so this will be short 
It is not snake oil it is a product that others, such as Absolute Zero PO4 minus are made of. It is the chemical Lanthanum Chloride.
Blue Line Corporation :: Lanthanum Chloride Solution
How it works
LaCl2 + H20 ---> La ++ + 2Cl- + H2O
La++ + PO4-- ---> LaPO4
The Lanthanum chloride dissolves in the water, giving free Lanthanum and Chloride ions. The Lanthanum ion attaches to a Phosphate ion and produces a an insoluble salt like Aragonite CaCO3, which settles to the bottom or where some may get picked up by the skimmer. One needs to be careful with this stuff, as it is easy to form LaCO3, which can deplete the Alk.
DonW and I have had some talks on its removal.......
Don
Boomer, would you help me understand this stuff. My thinking is if you dosed this to a measure of tank water then pushed that water through a low micron filter it would trap all or most of the Lanthanum Chloride pricip / P.
Sound right??
Boomer
I have not doubt Don that would work. Here is some info for you on how it works and why your idea would work.
Lanthanum chloride has been used for many years by various private and commercial institutions here in the United States and abroad, to remove high levels of orthophosphates from fresh and brackish water systems (Disney World and Sea World of Orlando, Florida – information provided by request only), as well as the recreational pooland spa industry for over 20 years. Industry wide application rates have been denoted that lanthanum bonds to orthophosphate at a ratio of 1:1. Simply stated, it takes 1ppm lanthanum to remove 1ppm orthophosphate from water. As dry weight, this equates to 16 pounds of 35% lanthanum chloride heptahydrate to remove 1ppm orthophosphate (PO43) from 1-acre foot of water. This ionic attraction takes place within several seconds of contact of the lanthanum and the orthophosphate in both the water column and/or sediment. Lanthanum retains ionic bonding at pH levels between 5 and 11, making it highly useable in most water systems for orthophosphate reduction. The lanthanum acts as a flocculent, capturing the orthophosphate and settling to the lake or stream floor, or in recirculating system, being trapped for removal by mechanical filtration. Once bonded, it removes the orthophosphate from utilization by both microbial and algal species. Unless exposed to highly acidic or alkaline waters, the ionic bond will not release. As lanthanum has an ionic bonding level comparable to sodium, lanthanum will also bond and flocculate carbonate (CO3), arsenic, selenium, and chromium. Application rates can vary due to the presence of these other minerals. Lanthanum is widely used in Japan to remove both arsenic V and arsenic X from freshwater drinking supplies (Water Environment Research, Vol. 71, pp. 299-306,1999. S. Tokunaga, S. Yokoyama, and S.A. Wasay) meeting the Japanese Effluent and Drinking Water Standards, by treating at a 3:1 ratio of lanthanum to arsenic.
However, Randy thinks it may be better to use lanthanum carbonate. Lanthanum chloride is a soluble form, the carbonate is a mostly insoluble solid. Some of the media forms are this stuff. But, from what I found out long ago, when this was brought up ump-teen times, is that both may cause clouding of the water and increasing turbidity. The only big worry about Lanthanum is its toxicty..........we dont' known.
Don
So any clue on what size micron filter would remove the precip? I think the one in my hot tub is 100 micron but not sure.
Boomer
I would try 10 microns. 100 is huge = .1 mm. Very fiine sand is 100 microns. But maybe try 50 microns first, that is silt size.
Don's test
It short it was a pain in the ash, so just stick with GFO's
It is not snake oil it is a product that others, such as Absolute Zero PO4 minus are made of. It is the chemical Lanthanum Chloride.
Blue Line Corporation :: Lanthanum Chloride Solution
How it works
LaCl2 + H20 ---> La ++ + 2Cl- + H2O
La++ + PO4-- ---> LaPO4
The Lanthanum chloride dissolves in the water, giving free Lanthanum and Chloride ions. The Lanthanum ion attaches to a Phosphate ion and produces a an insoluble salt like Aragonite CaCO3, which settles to the bottom or where some may get picked up by the skimmer. One needs to be careful with this stuff, as it is easy to form LaCO3, which can deplete the Alk.
DonW and I have had some talks on its removal.......
Don
Boomer, would you help me understand this stuff. My thinking is if you dosed this to a measure of tank water then pushed that water through a low micron filter it would trap all or most of the Lanthanum Chloride pricip / P.
Sound right??
Boomer
I have not doubt Don that would work. Here is some info for you on how it works and why your idea would work.
Lanthanum chloride has been used for many years by various private and commercial institutions here in the United States and abroad, to remove high levels of orthophosphates from fresh and brackish water systems (Disney World and Sea World of Orlando, Florida – information provided by request only), as well as the recreational pooland spa industry for over 20 years. Industry wide application rates have been denoted that lanthanum bonds to orthophosphate at a ratio of 1:1. Simply stated, it takes 1ppm lanthanum to remove 1ppm orthophosphate from water. As dry weight, this equates to 16 pounds of 35% lanthanum chloride heptahydrate to remove 1ppm orthophosphate (PO43) from 1-acre foot of water. This ionic attraction takes place within several seconds of contact of the lanthanum and the orthophosphate in both the water column and/or sediment. Lanthanum retains ionic bonding at pH levels between 5 and 11, making it highly useable in most water systems for orthophosphate reduction. The lanthanum acts as a flocculent, capturing the orthophosphate and settling to the lake or stream floor, or in recirculating system, being trapped for removal by mechanical filtration. Once bonded, it removes the orthophosphate from utilization by both microbial and algal species. Unless exposed to highly acidic or alkaline waters, the ionic bond will not release. As lanthanum has an ionic bonding level comparable to sodium, lanthanum will also bond and flocculate carbonate (CO3), arsenic, selenium, and chromium. Application rates can vary due to the presence of these other minerals. Lanthanum is widely used in Japan to remove both arsenic V and arsenic X from freshwater drinking supplies (Water Environment Research, Vol. 71, pp. 299-306,1999. S. Tokunaga, S. Yokoyama, and S.A. Wasay) meeting the Japanese Effluent and Drinking Water Standards, by treating at a 3:1 ratio of lanthanum to arsenic.
However, Randy thinks it may be better to use lanthanum carbonate. Lanthanum chloride is a soluble form, the carbonate is a mostly insoluble solid. Some of the media forms are this stuff. But, from what I found out long ago, when this was brought up ump-teen times, is that both may cause clouding of the water and increasing turbidity. The only big worry about Lanthanum is its toxicty..........we dont' known.
Don
So any clue on what size micron filter would remove the precip? I think the one in my hot tub is 100 micron but not sure.
Boomer
I would try 10 microns. 100 is huge = .1 mm. Very fiine sand is 100 microns. But maybe try 50 microns first, that is silt size.
Don's test
It short it was a pain in the ash, so just stick with GFO's
Last edited:
Hi Boomer,
Thanks for this detailed response.
If I understand it, then this stuff is OK, but Lanthanum Chloride would be better, and either should be removed by running the water through a fine filter afterward to separate the particles created freely in the water column upon contact with the liquid chemical.
But in the end, your recommendation is still Phosphate Sponge type chemicals that do their bonding to the material directly, rather than freely in the water column because they're easier to remove from the system?
Thanks for this detailed response.
If I understand it, then this stuff is OK, but Lanthanum Chloride would be better, and either should be removed by running the water through a fine filter afterward to separate the particles created freely in the water column upon contact with the liquid chemical.
But in the end, your recommendation is still Phosphate Sponge type chemicals that do their bonding to the material directly, rather than freely in the water column because they're easier to remove from the system?
Boomer
Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
No, this stuff from Blue Line is Lanthanum Chloride The stuff form Kent is Activated Alumina. i.e., Phosphate Sponge. I don't care for either but will say that the Kent Phosphate Sponge would be a better choice of the two, as it does bind itself to a "material" / media. You should be using as I stated, a GFO, such as Warner Marine's or TLF Phosban, which are Granular Ferric Oxides. They are even better at removing PO4 and do not have the side effects of the others.
Blue Vet Rx Phosphate Control Liquid a Lanthanum Chloride
Blue Line Corporation :: Lanthanum Chloride Solution
The stuff form Kent is Activated Alumina. i.e., Phosphate Sponge. I don't care for either but will say that the Kent Phosphate Sponge would be a better choice of the two, as it does bind itself to a "material" / media. You should be using as I stated, a GFO, such as Warner Marine's or TLF Phosban, which are Granular Ferric Oxides. They are even better at removing PO4 and do not have the side effects of the others.Blue Vet Rx Phosphate Control Liquid a Lanthanum Chloride
Blue Line Corporation :: Lanthanum Chloride Solution
Got it now - I didn't know that Kent Phosphate Sponge was aluminum, nor that it wasn't a good choice, but had been recommended Phosban, and had planned to get it until someone at the lfs recommended this Blue Vet Phsophate Control. I'll put it aside and get the PhosBan. The nature of the PhosBan and how it works sounds much better for the system.
Something new to learn every day. Thanks!
Something new to learn every day. Thanks!