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Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
A week or two huh? I see how it is...

Do you know, I am now doing 10g water changes a week to keep my alk where it needs to be. I want to go back to replacing 4g a week, that was manageable. I am getting tired of lugging around all this water up and down stairs every single week. Tank is on second floor, disposal of water is on first floor, RODI is on 3rd floor.... this whole system I have is messed up.

J/K

I'm about to pull the trigger on a dosing system and supplements. Just leery to do so. I've been down this road before, purchasing items where later on I wished I had purchased different items. Been reading up on various techniques over the last couple of months. I always have trouble making decisions like this, making the wrong decision hampers any decision for me.
 

Wrangy

Acropora Nut
RS STAFF
PREMIUM
I do apologise about that haha life can be a bit of a pest sometimes :(
I promise I'll write a smaller piece on it for you when I get home from work :) pinky promise! We'll have you confident about your choice it in no time! Anything in particular you want me to focus more on?
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Dosing methods! That is what I need!

How can I maintain these (Ca, Alk, Mg and also potassium) in my tank w/o doing major water changes? Who knows what in my tank is sucking K down, but I have been also testing iodine, potassium, and iron. And something in my tank is eating up all the K. No blues in my tank & purples turning orange now....

I am a trained scientist and have had my fair share of chemistry/biochemistry/organic chemistry courses, so I understand the chemistry or know how to refresh on it. But, methods of dosing I don't really get (Kalkwasser (reactors, dosing and ato dosing), Ca reactors, Balling method (and vodak and sugar (whatever that is))).

HELP!
 

Wrangy

Acropora Nut
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I have your post but alas the internet has crashed here so I'm letting you know via phone haha, I've done kalk, ca reactors and normal and balling dosing :) I can add more while I wait haha so let me know if there's anything else :)
 

Wrangy

Acropora Nut
RS STAFF
PREMIUM
First off I'm going to start with saying stay away from Kalkwasser ATO dosing!! It's easy and not much fuss but it is wildly inaccurate and really uncontrollable. It's useful for some tanks but for you and anyone running a serious sps tank I would avoid it at all costs due to the inability to really control it and therefore the fluctuations that it causes.

Now that I have that out of the way onto a more serious note haha.
I suppose I'll continue on my Kalkwasser explanations while I'm on the subject. Kalk reactors aren't too bad when it comes to keeping up certain elements as they effect not only Ca and Alk but they'll also keep your pH nice and high too (saturated kalk has a pH of about 12!). The reactors work by running a saturated mix of water of kalkwasser (calcium oxide or calcium hydroxide depending on brand/type), some use the pure saturated kalk water and others leave the undissolved powder in the reactor and mix it and then dose an almost super-saturated milky kalk substance. Most of the time kalk is dripped very slowly into the tank so not to throw anything off with it's high concentrations. Meaning a slow and constant feed on Ca, Alk and pH to the tank so it's really necessary to really tune in the flow rate as quickly as possible.
The downfalls of kalk are that (as I'm sure you know) calcium oxide and calcium hydroxide are not human friendly substances!! Protective Equipment needs to be worn, the powder is harmful if inhaled, ingested or it comes into contact with you as it is a caustic substance. I may be being a little over warning here but it is a dangerous subject and the science buff in me says there's no such thing so please do be careful if anyone is thinking about Kalkwasser!
Personally for you and most people I wouldn't worry about kalk, with the quality of balling products and part-dosing. Kalk is a little tricky and while it's good once set it's still not as easy or as straight forward as other methods :)

Calcium reactors are big, expensive and attention intensive pieces of equipment and systems but they are awesome!! I would love to run CaRX!! So good and really high quality dosing source but they can be quite dangerous and catastrophic if you're not always paying attention to them. They use CO2 to dissolve a calcium media and then flow it into the tank that way. So you need a pump, CO2 bottle, some monitors, the actual reactor and then the various intermediate parts. It is a really solid source for your tank and especially when you have high consumption rates in your tank. Only problem is they're recommended for higher consumption tanks but you can buy smaller units, they are a lot of work but well and truly worth it in my opinion and would be my weapon of choice if the stars align!!

I'm going to group balling methods and part-dosing together as they are the same things just balling is an expansion of part-dosing. They both involve deciding on elements as aspects you want to be maintained and dosed and then it's a matter of fine tuning amounts of what you want to directly dose. This is what I would recommend for you or anyone that is beginning to dose as it can be the most straight forward and the easiest to control and adjust! This is pretty much as straight forward as you get, especially if you're buying a dosing unit too (kamoer's are solid brands and cheap too, GHL if you can afford it). These methods of dosing involve creating your concentrated dosing liquid and according to your consumptions starting out with small amounts being dosed and slowly bring it up till there's no real variance between each water change.
This method is also the most expandable as you can go from two part (Ca and Alk) all the way to balling which is everything, all elements and salt! (Check out GlennF's thread for info on proper balling of everything and his methods!) Three part is the most appropriate as Ca, Alk and Mg need to be in balance and once you have your liquids and containers set, you decide your amounts and set it on the doser, testing and monitoring and adjusting is required till you find the right balances :)


For you though I would highly recommend getting a dosing pump (I use a kamoer 3-channel) and some three part (I use Fauna Marin Balling light powder and mix it myself and it's amazing, super high quality and accurate :) Ca, Alk and Mg, I'm not using the trace elements though(yet)), you can also get some potassium but I would hand dose that till you know how much is needed then set it up. Have a look at calcium reactors if you'd like but I'd definitely recommend dosing pumps and dosing liquids

Vodka and sugar are used to feed bacterial populations (as carbon sources) and things like that, not for elements for your corals. I can go into that if you'd like though :)
 

Wrangy

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No problems, happy to help out :) I'll do a bit more of an in depth version soon :)

Pat, if you ever want info on something post what you want to know about here and I'll do my best to get a nice piece up about it :)
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
No problems, happy to help out :) I'll do a bit more of an in depth version soon :)

Pat, if you ever want info on something post what you want to know about here and I'll do my best to get a nice piece up about it :)

Actually, your whole list looked useful to me, but "When to dose" is probably step one for me if you ever wanted to give your insight on that.

The short(ish) version of my story is my LFS recommend I start A&B dosing, but I didn't really get a clear explanation of what that meant or why I should do it. So, I've been researching/reading forums like crazy and I see all sorts of people doing all sorts of stuff half the time with little more understanding than I have (and in some cases so clearly not wisely that even I can tell they are messing up.). I like to think I'm not a total idiot, but there is a lot of information (good and bad) to try to sift through out there just to try to get a handle on this topic for a newbie!

I think just first understanding when to dose (and when not to) is something that is under discussed from what I can tell....
 

Wrangy

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RS STAFF
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Actually, your whole list looked useful to me, but "When to dose" is probably step one for me if you ever wanted to give your insight on that.

The short(ish) version of my story is my LFS recommend I start A&B dosing, but I didn't really get a clear explanation of what that meant or why I should do it. So, I've been researching/reading forums like crazy and I see all sorts of people doing all sorts of stuff half the time with little more understanding than I have (and in some cases so clearly not wisely that even I can tell they are messing up.). I like to think I'm not a total idiot, but there is a lot of information (good and bad) to try to sift through out there just to try to get a handle on this topic for a newbie!

I think just first understanding when to dose (and when not to) is something that is under discussed from what I can tell....

Oxy has posted some awesome links up here, I'd check them out but I'll be writing that full post up over the next week now that I've started it lol I've nearly doubled my equipment post already so this one might have to be a two or three parter if I keep this up haha I'll have it all clear and in easy and non-intimidating language, it tends to be pretty scary if you're just learning, I was lucky having a science background but that only made it a tiny bit easier, it's a constant effort to stay on top of it all which is why I write these things to help everyone :)

For the moment we can go through it quickly here if you'd like :) or on your thread, wherever you would rather have the conversation haha
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Didn't get many responses, so will post here hoping others can share their thoughts. Thanks!

Alright, placing an order this weekend. Going w/BRS 2-part system (Alk, Ca, and Mg). :yup:
Anyone using the BRS system? How is it working for you?
Looks like I can use trace element supplements (K) with this system, since it does not have any extra additives in their mixture and won't cause unnecessary over dosing.

Haven't decided on a dosing unit yet. Been looking at the ones available online and in lfs. GHL is hard to find and I'm not driving to Philadelphia to pick one up. I've found Kamoer on a few online vendor sites, but not the ones I usually purchase from unfortunately. The one that everyone seems to carry around here is the Bubble Magnus and a few other brands that I haven't heard many people talk about. So... decisions, decisions.... What dosing unit are you running?

Also gonna purchase some Hanna checkers (Alk, Ca, and PO4).... tired of all the liquid testing...
In reviews, people love the Alk and PO4, but there are mixed reviews on the Ca. Anyone have it and use it. Is it user error that is causing all the complaints on this product, or does it read inconsistently when compared to the liquid test kits? Anyone have personal experience with Hanna Ca unit?

I will plan to keep my tank at RS Pro salt levels. This particular salt is used for accelerated growth, thus purposely keeps levels high in their salt mix. Salinity 35.0 ppt; Alk 12.3-12.7/4.4-4.5; Ca 455-475; Mg 1360-1420; K 390-410. My tank has been within these levels since I first set it up (tank going on 3 yrs old this October) with very little fluctuation except for the last couple of months. In the last couple of months the levels have been dropping after each water change b/c the corals are gobbling it up. I've increased the amount of water I change each week to try to keep the tank more consistent, but I am tired of doing that.

After my corals grow and fill in a little more, I will lower the dosage that is ideal for a mature reef and change my salt mixture to one that has lower levels. :fingerx: Ranges: Alk 7.8-8.2/2.8-2.9; Ca 420-440; Mg 1250-1310; K 380-400. I will look to match what ever the new salt levels are.... which can vary by brand.

Thoughts before I shell out $$$
Solid plan? :ponder2:
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
I'll repost my calcium HC just in case others are curious/have different experiences to share.

-----

Personally, I love the Calcium Hanna Checker, but I can see what everyone is complaining about.

Fundamentally there are two problems some people have.

(1) there are more steps than people want. They are easy steps, but it has 4 steps basically where alkalinity has 2. I don't have a problem with this, but some others do.

(2) More importantly, one of the steps is to put exactly 0.1 ml of your salt water in the test tube thingy. If you do that step wrong, you get a wrong reading. For example, my hand has slipped before and I put in 0.15 ml and my reading was at least 20 points higher than it should be, so I had to redo it.

It's a very accurate instrument IF you do it right and that 0.1 ml is hard for some people to do.

I'm normally pretty good at it doing 0.1 ml accurately (verified by Red Sea test and LFS). So, for me it's super easy, accurate, and very quick.

But, I understand why others don't feel that way.

Bottom line for me is I love it. I think it's great.
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Personally, I love the Calcium Hanna Checker, but I can see what everyone is complaining about.

Fundamentally there are two problems some people have.

(1) there are more steps than people want. They are easy steps, but it has 4 steps basically where alkalinity has 2. I don't have a problem with this, but some others do.

(2) More importantly, one of the steps is to put exactly 0.1 ml of your salt water in the test tube thingy. If you do that step wrong, you get a wrong reading. For example, my hand has slipped before and I put in 0.15 ml and my reading was at least 20 points higher than it should be, so I had to redo it.

It's a very accurate instrument IF you do it right and that 0.1 ml is hard for some people to do.

I'm normally pretty good at it doing 0.1 ml accurately (verified by Red Sea test and LFS). So, for me it's super easy, accurate, and very quick.

But, I understand why others don't feel that way.

This is helpful. Thanks for following up. I suspected this was the case.

Found some good articles on Advanced Aquarist on the Hanna checkers -- tested it out for accuracy and use.
Product Review: Hanna 'Checkers': Calcium and Iron Colorimeters and Thoughts on Aquarium Industry Product Quality Control

Product Review: Inexpensive Analytical Devices: Hanna Instruments' Checkers: Alkalinity and Phosphate
Both articles were written a couple of years ago, so hopefully the Hanna devices function the same way or the company has improved their products since then. I know many on this forum use the phosphate checker and love them.
 

Wrangy

Acropora Nut
RS STAFF
PREMIUM
Can't comment on the BRS system but we do have something similar over here (It's Randy's recipe) that's high quality stuff but I never really enjoyed it much. I'm currently using the Fauna Marin Balling light Ca and Alk parts on my tank and my acro's and monti's and clam love it, I get some really good growth and the stuff is really high quality! The Alk part is hard to dissolve unless you heat your RO water up first so I'd do that, pretty much boil it and you'll find it'll dissolve a lot better. They're the only two additives I've had experience with but I know others enjoy the Red Sea dosing products too so it's up to you and how much you're willing to pay for your supps :)
With dosing K+ I would recommend doing it by hand as you might find you only need to dose it once a week or in fractions of ml's per day and it's a little hard to adjust and get right with a dosing pump. I'd follow the instructions for the first dose then test your levels the day after and just before dosing to see what happens and then also in the following few days (not that you need to be told this haha) and work it out that way then set it on the doser :)

I've heard the Bubble Magnus pumps are solid units and do their job really well but once again never used them, I personally run with a Kamoer 3-channel pump and I've loved that but as long as there are some good reviews out there go with what you want! I would say you'll be more than happy with one.

Pat has covered the ins and outs of the Hanna Ca checkers and why people have problems with them (kudos Pat!), I use Salifert and Seachem test kits for my Ca, Alk and Mg and Phos.

If your parameters have been kept at increased growth levels the I would stick with that till you're happy and then you can go back to colours and vibrancy once you feel it's the right time :) I definitely think getting a doser and using two-part would be an awesome idea to help you maintain levels in between water changes.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Both articles were written a couple of years ago, so hopefully the Hanna devices function the same way or the company has improved their products since then. I know many on this forum use the phosphate checker and love them.

The articles were good.

My short version on Alk tester is I don't know why anyone wouldn't use it. It's fast, easy, and not error prone. No downsides I can think of.

The phosphate tester wins by comparison. It's easy, fast, and accurate. It's also leagues above having to figure out what shade of blue something is. So, far better than any other test I tried.

But, I also find phosphate the most annoying for exactly one reason. The device has a 3 minute auto shut off for no good reason (Alk and calcium are 10 minutes). I don't know how many times I've stepped out of the room to handle a minor household crisis and had the thing power down on me and have to start the test over. 10 minutes seems to be long enough that doesn't really happen to me.
 

Danreef

Well-Known Member
For dosing I am using Kent Marine Tech-CB solution A and B in the RSM 250 since I started it with the sps, in June 2014. Before the upgrade to my RSM250 y was using Kent nano reef A and B in the 12 G tank. So far so good.

Dosing pumps: BRS (Bulk Reef Supply) 1,1 ml/min. Peristaltic pumps. The timing is controlled by my Reef Keeper Lite system timers. Nothing to regret here neither. They work flawlessly.

Test kits: Red Sea for Ca, Alk, and Mag. This is only what I measure to adjust my dosing. Mag is replenished with my 10% weekly WC. I follow any drastically change in Ca/Alk with the RKL pH meter. When reading goes out of what I see every day I test the water and adjust dosing. This happens occasionally, with time, due to sps growth.

Water: Petco Natural Sea Water (water directly from the ocean). I use a 5 G box/week in the RSM250 ($11.5). I used 10 boxes to fill the tank with the sand and rocks (50G). That is why I know I am doing exactly 10% water changes.

I hope this helps with your plans.

Daniel
 

Mark9

Has been struck by the ban stick
For dosing I am using Kent Marine Tech-CB solution A and B in the RSM 250 since I started it with the sps, in June 2014. Before the upgrade to my RSM250 y was using Kent nano reef A and B in the 12 G tank. So far so good.

I decided to dose the Kent Marine tech CB as well.
Just can not keep my calcium high enough with my water changing schedule.
I'm also using the Kent Marine Essential Elements.
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for posting. For test kits I've used practically every brand over the years, currently have API for everything but I, K & Fe, which are red sea brand. I'm tired of the test kits, thus the change to Hanna checkers for a couple of them. Just wanted the feedback on the Hanna's before the purchase....
 
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